The education that has always mattered is a sense of curiosity, awe and wonder of the world we are a part of.
Humans are naturally curious, and to lose that is a great waste of human potential.
Kids today are numbed by screens and many parents are too busy surviving to give deep attention and love. Kids have lost an ability to stay curious. I could go on. I have many thoughts…
Signed A Teacher working to inspire a love of the world for over 30 years.
My experience would be that whenever my children have shown curiosity at school it is shut down. The education is to observe, copy, memorise and then get the correct answer, not to ask questions about why they are doing this thing or how etc. that is seen as being a threat to authority or disruptive to the lesson, unless it is explicitly prompted but even in that case you have to kind of recite the correct ‘challenge’ to this theory etc
Loved this conversation! I returned to teaching last year after a 2 year break (pivoted from private to public to try and have more impact). I vowed- in this very comment section- not to let the system draw me back in….but it is so so challenging. I find myself exhausted and exasperated from trying to get the kids on board with what we’re being told we need to do, all the while not feeling it myself and knowing that their disillusionment is justified.
I’m coming to see it as another challenge I have to face between the self that wants to stay in the old, ‘safe’ way of doing things, and the self that is desperate to move on and challenge the status quo. The AI push is real though, and so is our data-driven way of educating young people.
I still love education and want to spend my time on this earth trying to make some sort of impact in this space. This episode gave me a few roads to go down in terms of opening my mind to alternative models of education and thinking about how I might start to create those spaces in my small pockets.
Great Interview Sarah. I have been following Zak Stein, Nate Hagens, Nora Bateson , Sarah Sweetwater and others on the Meta Crisis and as Nate says he needs more people to take up the banner over the meta crisis. This I am doing around Nature Bound reconnection via Substack. From your chat with Zak the thoughts come to mind, Nature Deficit Disorder starts with the adult disorder and there needs to be a "Finishing School" concept launched clear of formal education programs based around humanity and reality. First days are for Parents followed by days for their younger generations. Like Mark McCormack once wrote in his book - "What they didn't teach you in Harvard Business School". "Don't be a victim to your phone".
My adopted mantra on Substack is the "The Right Relationship - with nature and life". There is much to address around the AI distraction and intrusion, (good and bad), Brain Gap between Elder Wisdom and Young, in Australia - positive lessons from Aboriginal / Indigenous Wisdom, The Great Divide (I have conducted outback and wilderness tours for 40 Years and observed people and realities across the divide). Ecopsychology is another hovering awareness, founded in a feminine vein. Given the difficulties now faced by disconnected families there is also opportunity for a business to take up family enhancement, within management and employees, nurturing the business as an extended family with advocacy flowing through to business humanity, social licence, market branding and share. The real challenge is in providing a credible platform to express all this re-emerging wisdom. I'm not sure if Substack is the vehicle especially with so much technology enhancement being touted for breakthrough. Your chat with Zak interrupted prep of my next article around lessons and consciousness gained from a river /creek bank. Thanks for your stimulating and positive disruption with Zak. Much appreciated.
Such a wonderful interview Sarah, it started out in the basements of the tech world and ended up in the guilds - I love this framework - the idea of the “master craftsman” - at the top of their trade, teaching within specialised schools to bring up new generations to improve society. How to build with found materials, how to repair – like the craftspeople who stepped in to rebuild the Notre-Dame Cathedral, it is a very exciting prospect. Bringing true value back to the trades. My kids are 25-32 years old so have escaped the school system before social media etc became so entrenched. A Doctor, an engineer, and a policy writer/philosopher, they are all very active in this changing world, but I think we were very luck to get educated before AI arrived.
breathtaking conversation. I have a niece in a private school in Sydney under so much pressure, 16 hours of homework a week in year 8, no time to be bored or curious or wander or wonder or question - or make mistakes - so much more pressure than when my kids were at school over 10 years ago. NOTHING she is learning, from what I can see, and from how she is living and talking, covers any skills to human well, to contribute, to care, to live a circular life, to problem solve. It often brings me to tears. Parents in that school are being conned, having fallen hard for a big fat lie, at enormous cost. It actually makes me feel physically sick. This season is just brilliant, Sarah .
By contrast my nephew is in a public high school in Canberra... little to no homework. The public primary school all my other nieces and nephews go to have a no homework policy as it's deemed unfair to students who don't have parents who can support them at home. As Clive Hamilton articulated in the podcast we did a while back - private schooling in Australia is very largely responsible for the rising inequality.
thanks Sarah - these schools are dripping with inequality - at the end of year service, many year 12 names were called out of students who were away "participating in wonderful opportunities" - everyone of them, opportunities overseas. Incredibly out of touch with reality. I think these most expensive schools are SO expensive too, that you don't even have families on lesser incomes, "struggling" to send their kids there, as the whole thing is out of the reach of anyone who is not uber wealthy. You don't see any "normal" cars at all etc. Students are missing out. Missing out of the beauty of variety and diversity. And - homework is just plain wrong.
Thank you Sarah and Zak for this conversation. I found it incredibly engaging and I'm grateful for the way you explored education and children through so many different contexts. Zak, I was a participant in the recent Warm Data Training for Educators in the Time of A.I. with Nora Bateson and wanted to extend my gratitude for your contributions there too.
Thank you for articulating that education is actually of the heart and of the soul and that an educator doesn't think of education in utilitarian and economic ways. I really loved and resonated with this. I have been a Montessori teacher for over 15 years and this is exactly where educators are coming from: the child's soul and flourishing as a human being.
While listening to you converse, I kept thinking that Montessori addresses so much of what was being discussed as being needed for children and young people. And yet, Montessori remains niche, largely unknown (people tend to stumble across it by accident) and it is often only available to families with financial means who can afford to pay for private education. There are also the constraints that come from being part of larger education systems and all the systems we live in. For us adults, I think the biggest obstacle is that we have absorbed the linear, mechanistic, extractive and siloed ways of perceiving and interacting which keep seeping into everything we do...
Zak, I'm wondering if you are familiar with Montessori education and Dr. Maria Montessori's writings? When you started to describe the guilds, I could see resonances particularly with the Montessori adolescent programs where study and life are synonymous. The adolescents, with guidance from adults who specialise in relevant fields, work on projects that benefit their local community. For younger children, the problem solving and contributions start on a closer level: their class community, school community and neighbourhoods. There are beautiful things about Montessori and there are also challenges. I'm keen to hear your thoughts on Montessori education as I'm swimming in it and I can't always see the water.
Thank you both.
Kei xx
P.S. Sarah, will Nora Bateson be appearing as a guest on your podcast?
Actually, maybe what I can do is share a personal story of my experience of Warm Data. On the last day of the recent Warm Data training that I attended, my heart found a place to land. Until then my heart felt like it was free falling into despair with nowhere to land. I had been in the depths of not knowing how to keep living.
The sharing of personal stories and being held in a place of radical care, connection and hospitality with over 100 people over the course of a month, culminated in my heart finding a landing. This was an incredibly powerful experience for me.
I think Samantha Sweetwater said in your recent interview that there are messages in our surroundings that we can tune into. I have been visiting the community of angophra trees in my neighbourhood and after that landing moment on the last day of the WD training, I felt that Warm Data offered what the angophra trees were doing: to be among others, to be among nature, to commune. A deep knowing that I am not alone.
It's hard to articulate in language what it is what I want you to discuss with her. Life. Warm Data which is information that is alive. How to be human but to talk about this in a way where it doesn't become a method or a hack, the importance of telling personal stories to be in relation with each other rather than opine or talk ABOUT things...my words here don't do much service to communicate the depth and richness of Warm Data...all I know is that we need to be practicing relating and Nora has a beautiful way of sharing this.
"There are beautiful things about Montessori and there are also challenges" same for Steiner education, which is where we sent our kids. A lot of the ideas in this podcast are echoed in Steiner education as well. Thank you for being a teacher with a child's soul and flourishing as a foundational core!
Thank you, Gillian. Yes, so many things echoed in Steiner and Montessori and probably other educational approaches too. I feel the devil’s in the details and in the practice…and perhaps we can’t say this educational method will work because we are transcontextual and always changing. Thank you for your lovely words of appreciation. xx
Thank you so much for this conversation, Sarah. I work at a University where engagement with screens and AI is all anyone talks about. AI (and the proliferation of screens) is predictably having a huge impact on everything we do, but it is happening so quickly that there is no time for discussion of what it all means at the level of pedagogy, citizenship, formation of self etc. Everyone is scrambling to contain the chaos of AI infiltrating assessment, or trying to respond to new University mandates re AI in the courses they are already teaching.
I am a film/cinema studies academic; in my discipline engagement with screens has always been at the centre of what we think about and write about. I have also found that students are very interested in thinking about the current climate through the context of our discipline (so, leveraging historical film and spectatorship theory to ask questions about attention economies etc). But the University and their teams of learning designers are not; first there was the removal of lectures (which I believe are important for modelling critical thinking, argumentation and reasoning), and now this obsession with online homogenised "content" that makes humans obsolete. It is not only devastating the quality of education but is perpetuating and reiterating what you and Zak discuss, when it *could* be arming young people to think critically about it all and/or to resist.
I'd be really interested to connect with other educators about this. I think what we need is cross-disciplinary thinking, knowledge-sharing to pool strategies etc.
Yes, in-person lectures speak to what Zak says about how we learn....as kids we need to see tongue placement etc, as young adults, we need to see posture, gesture etc.
I needed to hear this conversation today - thank you 🙏. My 4 year old is about to enter the education system in the UK and we’re lucky enough to have a special state school near where we live that focuses more on developing a love of learning, sense of community (& deep reverence for it) and developing them as contributing citizens in society, with academic attainment as secondary. It’s seen as quite a “hippy” school - no uniform, teachers by first name, very play based and vocational etc.
I fell in love with it and was grateful to find somewhere aligned to our values, but after being offered and accepting a place I had a massive wobble as his peers and our friends’ kids were choosing much more traditionally academic schools, based on results / attainment and stretching themselves to enter the private school system from 4, which left me feeling as if our choices were doing our son a disservice. But I couldn’t shake the feeling that the world no longer needs institutionalised kids and that raising good humans, connected to the beautiful, sometimes challenging reality of life must be what’s most needed. This conversation helped me feel so much more anchored in our intuition and decision ❤️.
And, just to be super clear, this is not meant to be a judgement on any other parents’ choices - I appreciate there’s no single right path - but more a reflection on the powerful pull of the known neo-liberal system while we’re charting a course into a very ambiguous future.
You will know if it is working if your child is engaged and challenged in ways that make them feel confident. If they are just slacking off and not really learning anything and start to get anxious (dropping out, zoning out, complaining about stuff/aka blaming others) then you know it's off. Alt can be good, but it can also be a bullshit soft parenting cop out. Which creates more problems and anxiety than it solves.
Sounds good though , and sounds like it will teach your child to create their life and path than to follow the old ones.
Thanks so much Steve - that’s a really helpful lens for us to use as we navigate the next few years in this system. I’m really conscious that the school feels like a really aligned fit for us as parents (and we hope for our son) but will need to go in with eyes wide open to make sure it’s actually working for him and not just and ego trip for us knowing he’s at an “alternative” school. 🙏❤️
One thing I have seen in myself and in other parents is trying to fix our own trauma through our kids. This is what Zac was pointing to. Quite often alt people come from an abusive home where mum or dad ruled everyone. The idea of a system, or person telling them or their child what to do is too much for them. Because they are afraid , or unable to face shame when they can’t step up to the level of the teacher , partner or authority figure and their expectations or boundaries. Or they are so scared they cannot feel who to trust. So it is an endless journey of healing and finding the right fit, place person or modality.
But in the beginning all we have is our journey, and our kids always bring this back out. I could be wrong but it feels like a journey together. They have theirs to embark on, and ours to finish. It takes time to get to know the child, and time for them to find themselves.
Zac gave good advice for parenting and life. Identify things that take you away from real life and minimise time with them. And engage with yourself and your child as honestly as possible, in an age appropriate manner. And extend the same level,of love and care to yourself as you would your child.
To be modeled someone who is present , curious and kind to themselves and others is the biggest gift a child can be given.
Good luck, sounds beautiful that you found a little village , it’s the teachers that are most important for the child , and the other parents which are most important to you two
My brain is still on this subject 😂, Zac mentions that it is the teachers , not the system or the school which makes the difference. This was the case for me , I went to a small public school, very much off the radar. The principals were real ‘teachers’ , so in their right place. Aware of the system and how to navigate it, and with respect for the system which is ultimately put in place to help students, but also very much there , in their room. Not checked out, or the startled rabbit in the head lights of the system.
Small is good, everyone knew each others names , the faces were familiar, and you had a place. Meet the principal, they hire and fire the teachers and set the tone , more so than any other organisation or business I have been on. Then meet the teachers , get on the P and C , go to parent teacher nights. Even if they are not perfect, you setting the standard and the relationship as real improves their relationship with their job and your child.
Once again, the answers are simple, and terrifying. There is no magic pill, place or system, there is only relationship, and it is messy , scary and really fucking beautiful.
I was sitting in the front row at Carriageworks, I came to see you and dragged my best friend along (who thanked me immensely for introducing her to you). It was my birthday and such a wonderful gift to hear you speak. I’ve been reading I eat the stars and I have almost finished. I have followed you on Substack and devoured the eloquent and brilliant ways you describe the often brutal reality of the happenings of the world. You’ve been a great source of inspiration for my own writing.. so thank you. I wanted to share with you a snippet of something I wrote earlier today.
“And so… with white knuckles, I grip on to humanness, anything that brings joy, messiness and the brilliance that it is to be to utterly and tragically “us”. In a body and mind that struggles to comprehend how we are both capable of the most deeply cruel and inhumane things- but also of the wonders and kindness that brings tears and soul abiding love. How can these things both be true? Surrounding yourself with those whose hearts practically burst out of their chests is the answer, and to be that person for others to follow alongside. That’s how we’ll offer ourselves to heal and survive”.
Damn, that was a good discussion, and good timing Sarah. Probably the most balanced and realistic discussion about parenting and parental maturity, as well as a very practical guide for the current life situation on the planet.
Love how simple it all is, when dealing with a crisis, the simple, real, and loving things are the things to do. No cheat sheet, stacking, supplements, systems or hacks. Just real life, and courage and love. I have struggled with screen addiction , while also being aware of it and its impact on me and my child. And also watched my child be soft parented in the worst possible new age, avoidant and deluded way. It is all being addressed and repaired now which is great.
But as someone who has been at the coal face, I can say that Zak nails it in regard to the impacts on the child , and also the internal reality of the parent. I allowed my child to be raised in this way as I had no personal boundaries, courage or discipline. Or rather, my relating style inside of an abusive relationship, turned all of this off in me.
I am very disciplined, courageous and have strong boundaries. But the learning was to give them to myself , and also then bring them into relating with others. That has been my biggest learning , and also salvation in my role as a father. To parent myself and lead by example is all a parent can do. And also have humility and self compassion, with the 30% perfection rule in mind (do things right 30% of the time and that is enough to have a positive impact).
And to not be a hypocrite, a child learns through our actions , not our words, especially if we are talking bullshit. A childs ick reflex to power battles, hypocrisy, and injustice is very strong thank god. Good food, good chats, building things, doing things, just walking around and seeing the world and talking about it. love it
It should not be that way , but intimate relationships or parental relationships are the healing place for these internal glitches. And maybe , maybe, our own redemption and healing arc gives our children and our partners faith in their own development.
Spot on also re using kids to deal with our own guilt re destroying the world. Keep the conversations real, but also age appropriate, it is not a childs job to carry the world on their shoulders. But they should not be told lies either. A gentle initiation into life which is appropriate to the individual and their age. love it. And respect the elders, be honest about their actions and why, and how things can be done differently in the future. Don't deny the shadow in ourselves and our ancestors, instead see how and why it was used.
I would also add , listen to your child , are they someone who wants to build things (business , guilds, schools etc) or do they want to just help and get a job. This will dictate if traditional school or a more free form school is more appropriate to guide them
I have listened to this one twice now - work in education as well, my neurodiverse students seem to be right on to this and looking for the adults to acknowledge and help. Hugely inspired by this interview thanks Sarah AND loved meeting you in person last night in Hobart with my new bunch of friends!! Appreciated the conversation and the gathering of like minds and hearts 💕
Excellent discussion! Thank you both, and will definitely be sharing :)
As another teacher (at Uni) of Digital Media (eeek!) I have felt deeply conflicted about what I do for a long time - and yet at the same time a huge responsibility and commitment to my students and their ability to professionally contribute, have successful careers and live well.
The industry/world has changed so much in the time since I first started working in media (in the noughties), and while there have been incredible leaps and bounds when it comes to the tools and technologies we now use, the application, commercialisation and non-regulation of them is deeply concerning. I decided it's better to fight the system from within than without. So a big part of what I teach centers around ethics, values, rights, privacy, digital literacy and wellbeing; making sure students understand how the sausages are made in the sausage factory!
When I tell them that I don't use any social media (except LinkedIn for work) and have been banned from Facebook, it always captures their attention. Shock, horror! What did I do?? - I dared to ask for my data back and to delete a profile I hadn't used in 10 years. (And you thought hell had no fury like a woman scorned. Try Meta!) Their punitive customer retention policies and deceptive algorithms are draconian in this era of consent, transparency and control. It's like giving up a US passport, once you do, you can never get it back...except this is SOCIAL MEDIA!!!
Even a small pause for thought is a win in the classroom (or at home) and hopefully one small step towards critical thinking and behaviour change, which is what we all need to keep nudging towards. Thanks for the nudge! :)
I've experienced the same with X - kicked off, no ability to get back on. Lost 50,000 followers.
You might feel the same - I never could believe that these platforms would stay "free". I remember when Facebook almost shut down the IQS business, my staff got up in arms. But I had to point out there's no such thing as free lunch.
This line from Zak, “That’s not how an educator thinks. That’s how an economist thinks” is so key to what’s making the education system that grew from a neoliberal, industrial and economic base broken. It’s purpose seems to be to train little conformist units, whose value comes from test scores and future output in the current system. Even the idea of homework, that the students work for the day can’t fit into the school day, feels like they are being trained to work overtime for free, and to think being so busy, tired and overwhelmed is a normal way to exist.
As a teacher working in the public system, I can say it is possible to fight this from within. This conversation was outstanding and will inspire me to keep making choices as an educator more concerned about helping the students make a meaningful life. That’s work worth doing.
I’ve spent the last 18 months researching what children will need to navigate the future that is unfolding, so this podcast was particularly relevant for me. I’m coming at it as a grandparent. When I see kids that are completely unanchored- disconnected from their own bodies, their feelings, nature and the humans around them, it makes me so sad. And they lack the skills to survive because, as Zak says, they’re missing the window of opportunity to build them. They’re addicted to screens and so are their parents. Gentle parenting simply does not work. We have to be adults around children, not their peers desperate to be liked.
One of the best things grandparents can do is NOT be on screens around grandkids. Role model something different. Get them engaged in real life, not the virtual world. Ask them questions, not just to show interest but to help them reflect. Tell them stories. Help them stretch themselves.
I know I probably sound judgmental of parents. It’s so much harder to be a parent these days. I get it. But we all have to stop and think about what’s really important in life. If we’re going to bring kids into this crazy world, we need to protect them and prepare them for the future.
There. Rant over. This podcast hit a nerve for me.
I loved this chat. I'm having some internal conflict about the gentle parenting stuff. Yes I need to look at myself and be a good role model but it did also feel like a cultural requirement. When my kids where little the emphasis was on attachment parenting, it felt like so much pressure to be perfect. I thought I was doing a good job but I definitely got some of it wrong.
I wish I could be more consistent with the simple but hard stuff. I'm a much better parent, human and role model when I eat healthy, exercise every day, go to sleep early, reduce screen time and read/meditate/journal and be more present. Too often I find myself staying up late, eating chocolate, watching netflix and skipping exercise and I wonder why. I don't know if it is apathy, lacking discipline, lacking meaning, boredom, wanting to stay comfortable, self sabotage or a strange type of rebellion. I hate that I find the simple stuff so hard.
I’m pleased you didn’t and appreciate you having the courage to share that with the community Sarah has built here, I think that’s one of the things I love about these comment sections that is really unique compared to other substacks. We’re all real people with different thoughts and in different places but sharing an experience of life and not trying to pretend it’s all glorious or the opposite, like it’s all completely pointless and doomed.
We do reach for comforts when we need them, chocolate, netflix, etc.
I love that bit about a strange type of rebellion, I’m actually in a little bit of that at the mo, I’m kind of tired of all of the self helpy sort of lists of all of the ‘good’ stuff you should be doing… it in itself becomes a pressure cooker of must do’s and of course we know there is truth to them, better sleep does help, walking in nature does help, breathing does help, eating just the right combo of veggies and protein and fibre and so on and so on… then you can go crazy into the detail… so don’t just exercise… but the right type of exercise… my wife is in perimenopause stage of life so we have all of this hugely applified in our house, I’ve always been an anxious ‘health obsessor’ because my mum smokes and has type 2 diabetes and I never want to become that… but hey reality is… I bloody love cake yeh and I don’t always do the stretches or the walks or the maca powder or whatever… the rebellion does kick in and you’re like nah… today… this week… this month… can just do one, I’m gunna let it slide… but I equally allow the faith to be there that it will pass and the motivation will come back and it does, things change to what we can cope with in that moment I think.
I always do the zoom out thing… imagine your life is a metre long ruler… and this ‘phase’ you may find yourself in… it’s like 1mm on that ruler maybe… like it’s not that big a deal and it will still be part of your life journey and you will learn from it
Not waffling at all, you pinpointed exactly how I'm feeling. I'm tired of the self helpy stuff as well. There is literally a rule for everything and I'm drowning in it. I love cake too.
The education that has always mattered is a sense of curiosity, awe and wonder of the world we are a part of.
Humans are naturally curious, and to lose that is a great waste of human potential.
Kids today are numbed by screens and many parents are too busy surviving to give deep attention and love. Kids have lost an ability to stay curious. I could go on. I have many thoughts…
Signed A Teacher working to inspire a love of the world for over 30 years.
Dear Teacher working to inspire a love of the world for over 30 years...thank you!
My experience would be that whenever my children have shown curiosity at school it is shut down. The education is to observe, copy, memorise and then get the correct answer, not to ask questions about why they are doing this thing or how etc. that is seen as being a threat to authority or disruptive to the lesson, unless it is explicitly prompted but even in that case you have to kind of recite the correct ‘challenge’ to this theory etc
Loved this conversation! I returned to teaching last year after a 2 year break (pivoted from private to public to try and have more impact). I vowed- in this very comment section- not to let the system draw me back in….but it is so so challenging. I find myself exhausted and exasperated from trying to get the kids on board with what we’re being told we need to do, all the while not feeling it myself and knowing that their disillusionment is justified.
I’m coming to see it as another challenge I have to face between the self that wants to stay in the old, ‘safe’ way of doing things, and the self that is desperate to move on and challenge the status quo. The AI push is real though, and so is our data-driven way of educating young people.
I still love education and want to spend my time on this earth trying to make some sort of impact in this space. This episode gave me a few roads to go down in terms of opening my mind to alternative models of education and thinking about how I might start to create those spaces in my small pockets.
Thank goodness for teachers like you, Lou.
Great Interview Sarah. I have been following Zak Stein, Nate Hagens, Nora Bateson , Sarah Sweetwater and others on the Meta Crisis and as Nate says he needs more people to take up the banner over the meta crisis. This I am doing around Nature Bound reconnection via Substack. From your chat with Zak the thoughts come to mind, Nature Deficit Disorder starts with the adult disorder and there needs to be a "Finishing School" concept launched clear of formal education programs based around humanity and reality. First days are for Parents followed by days for their younger generations. Like Mark McCormack once wrote in his book - "What they didn't teach you in Harvard Business School". "Don't be a victim to your phone".
My adopted mantra on Substack is the "The Right Relationship - with nature and life". There is much to address around the AI distraction and intrusion, (good and bad), Brain Gap between Elder Wisdom and Young, in Australia - positive lessons from Aboriginal / Indigenous Wisdom, The Great Divide (I have conducted outback and wilderness tours for 40 Years and observed people and realities across the divide). Ecopsychology is another hovering awareness, founded in a feminine vein. Given the difficulties now faced by disconnected families there is also opportunity for a business to take up family enhancement, within management and employees, nurturing the business as an extended family with advocacy flowing through to business humanity, social licence, market branding and share. The real challenge is in providing a credible platform to express all this re-emerging wisdom. I'm not sure if Substack is the vehicle especially with so much technology enhancement being touted for breakthrough. Your chat with Zak interrupted prep of my next article around lessons and consciousness gained from a river /creek bank. Thanks for your stimulating and positive disruption with Zak. Much appreciated.
good on you for your work, John. The tour guide observations would be intriguing.
Such a wonderful interview Sarah, it started out in the basements of the tech world and ended up in the guilds - I love this framework - the idea of the “master craftsman” - at the top of their trade, teaching within specialised schools to bring up new generations to improve society. How to build with found materials, how to repair – like the craftspeople who stepped in to rebuild the Notre-Dame Cathedral, it is a very exciting prospect. Bringing true value back to the trades. My kids are 25-32 years old so have escaped the school system before social media etc became so entrenched. A Doctor, an engineer, and a policy writer/philosopher, they are all very active in this changing world, but I think we were very luck to get educated before AI arrived.
breathtaking conversation. I have a niece in a private school in Sydney under so much pressure, 16 hours of homework a week in year 8, no time to be bored or curious or wander or wonder or question - or make mistakes - so much more pressure than when my kids were at school over 10 years ago. NOTHING she is learning, from what I can see, and from how she is living and talking, covers any skills to human well, to contribute, to care, to live a circular life, to problem solve. It often brings me to tears. Parents in that school are being conned, having fallen hard for a big fat lie, at enormous cost. It actually makes me feel physically sick. This season is just brilliant, Sarah .
By contrast my nephew is in a public high school in Canberra... little to no homework. The public primary school all my other nieces and nephews go to have a no homework policy as it's deemed unfair to students who don't have parents who can support them at home. As Clive Hamilton articulated in the podcast we did a while back - private schooling in Australia is very largely responsible for the rising inequality.
thanks Sarah - these schools are dripping with inequality - at the end of year service, many year 12 names were called out of students who were away "participating in wonderful opportunities" - everyone of them, opportunities overseas. Incredibly out of touch with reality. I think these most expensive schools are SO expensive too, that you don't even have families on lesser incomes, "struggling" to send their kids there, as the whole thing is out of the reach of anyone who is not uber wealthy. You don't see any "normal" cars at all etc. Students are missing out. Missing out of the beauty of variety and diversity. And - homework is just plain wrong.
gosh how horrible. no contact with everyday people, poor people, the opposite sex...and then they're siphoned into leadership roles
here's the ep: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/wild-with-sarah-wilson/id1548626341?i=1000666825864
Thank you Sarah and Zak for this conversation. I found it incredibly engaging and I'm grateful for the way you explored education and children through so many different contexts. Zak, I was a participant in the recent Warm Data Training for Educators in the Time of A.I. with Nora Bateson and wanted to extend my gratitude for your contributions there too.
Thank you for articulating that education is actually of the heart and of the soul and that an educator doesn't think of education in utilitarian and economic ways. I really loved and resonated with this. I have been a Montessori teacher for over 15 years and this is exactly where educators are coming from: the child's soul and flourishing as a human being.
While listening to you converse, I kept thinking that Montessori addresses so much of what was being discussed as being needed for children and young people. And yet, Montessori remains niche, largely unknown (people tend to stumble across it by accident) and it is often only available to families with financial means who can afford to pay for private education. There are also the constraints that come from being part of larger education systems and all the systems we live in. For us adults, I think the biggest obstacle is that we have absorbed the linear, mechanistic, extractive and siloed ways of perceiving and interacting which keep seeping into everything we do...
Zak, I'm wondering if you are familiar with Montessori education and Dr. Maria Montessori's writings? When you started to describe the guilds, I could see resonances particularly with the Montessori adolescent programs where study and life are synonymous. The adolescents, with guidance from adults who specialise in relevant fields, work on projects that benefit their local community. For younger children, the problem solving and contributions start on a closer level: their class community, school community and neighbourhoods. There are beautiful things about Montessori and there are also challenges. I'm keen to hear your thoughts on Montessori education as I'm swimming in it and I can't always see the water.
Thank you both.
Kei xx
P.S. Sarah, will Nora Bateson be appearing as a guest on your podcast?
I've asked...what would you want her to discuss with me?
Actually, maybe what I can do is share a personal story of my experience of Warm Data. On the last day of the recent Warm Data training that I attended, my heart found a place to land. Until then my heart felt like it was free falling into despair with nowhere to land. I had been in the depths of not knowing how to keep living.
The sharing of personal stories and being held in a place of radical care, connection and hospitality with over 100 people over the course of a month, culminated in my heart finding a landing. This was an incredibly powerful experience for me.
I think Samantha Sweetwater said in your recent interview that there are messages in our surroundings that we can tune into. I have been visiting the community of angophra trees in my neighbourhood and after that landing moment on the last day of the WD training, I felt that Warm Data offered what the angophra trees were doing: to be among others, to be among nature, to commune. A deep knowing that I am not alone.
It's hard to articulate in language what it is what I want you to discuss with her. Life. Warm Data which is information that is alive. How to be human but to talk about this in a way where it doesn't become a method or a hack, the importance of telling personal stories to be in relation with each other rather than opine or talk ABOUT things...my words here don't do much service to communicate the depth and richness of Warm Data...all I know is that we need to be practicing relating and Nora has a beautiful way of sharing this.
"There are beautiful things about Montessori and there are also challenges" same for Steiner education, which is where we sent our kids. A lot of the ideas in this podcast are echoed in Steiner education as well. Thank you for being a teacher with a child's soul and flourishing as a foundational core!
My kids did Waldorf for a few years, too ❤️
Thank you, Gillian. Yes, so many things echoed in Steiner and Montessori and probably other educational approaches too. I feel the devil’s in the details and in the practice…and perhaps we can’t say this educational method will work because we are transcontextual and always changing. Thank you for your lovely words of appreciation. xx
oh yes please!
Thank you so much for this conversation, Sarah. I work at a University where engagement with screens and AI is all anyone talks about. AI (and the proliferation of screens) is predictably having a huge impact on everything we do, but it is happening so quickly that there is no time for discussion of what it all means at the level of pedagogy, citizenship, formation of self etc. Everyone is scrambling to contain the chaos of AI infiltrating assessment, or trying to respond to new University mandates re AI in the courses they are already teaching.
I am a film/cinema studies academic; in my discipline engagement with screens has always been at the centre of what we think about and write about. I have also found that students are very interested in thinking about the current climate through the context of our discipline (so, leveraging historical film and spectatorship theory to ask questions about attention economies etc). But the University and their teams of learning designers are not; first there was the removal of lectures (which I believe are important for modelling critical thinking, argumentation and reasoning), and now this obsession with online homogenised "content" that makes humans obsolete. It is not only devastating the quality of education but is perpetuating and reiterating what you and Zak discuss, when it *could* be arming young people to think critically about it all and/or to resist.
I'd be really interested to connect with other educators about this. I think what we need is cross-disciplinary thinking, knowledge-sharing to pool strategies etc.
Yes, in-person lectures speak to what Zak says about how we learn....as kids we need to see tongue placement etc, as young adults, we need to see posture, gesture etc.
I think this is what Nora Bateson refers to as Warm Data. xx
Oh this is great — thank you
💐
Absolutely.
I needed to hear this conversation today - thank you 🙏. My 4 year old is about to enter the education system in the UK and we’re lucky enough to have a special state school near where we live that focuses more on developing a love of learning, sense of community (& deep reverence for it) and developing them as contributing citizens in society, with academic attainment as secondary. It’s seen as quite a “hippy” school - no uniform, teachers by first name, very play based and vocational etc.
I fell in love with it and was grateful to find somewhere aligned to our values, but after being offered and accepting a place I had a massive wobble as his peers and our friends’ kids were choosing much more traditionally academic schools, based on results / attainment and stretching themselves to enter the private school system from 4, which left me feeling as if our choices were doing our son a disservice. But I couldn’t shake the feeling that the world no longer needs institutionalised kids and that raising good humans, connected to the beautiful, sometimes challenging reality of life must be what’s most needed. This conversation helped me feel so much more anchored in our intuition and decision ❤️.
And, just to be super clear, this is not meant to be a judgement on any other parents’ choices - I appreciate there’s no single right path - but more a reflection on the powerful pull of the known neo-liberal system while we’re charting a course into a very ambiguous future.
Yes, mostly we need parents to feel supported in what they're feeling. x
You will know if it is working if your child is engaged and challenged in ways that make them feel confident. If they are just slacking off and not really learning anything and start to get anxious (dropping out, zoning out, complaining about stuff/aka blaming others) then you know it's off. Alt can be good, but it can also be a bullshit soft parenting cop out. Which creates more problems and anxiety than it solves.
Sounds good though , and sounds like it will teach your child to create their life and path than to follow the old ones.
Thanks so much Steve - that’s a really helpful lens for us to use as we navigate the next few years in this system. I’m really conscious that the school feels like a really aligned fit for us as parents (and we hope for our son) but will need to go in with eyes wide open to make sure it’s actually working for him and not just and ego trip for us knowing he’s at an “alternative” school. 🙏❤️
One thing I have seen in myself and in other parents is trying to fix our own trauma through our kids. This is what Zac was pointing to. Quite often alt people come from an abusive home where mum or dad ruled everyone. The idea of a system, or person telling them or their child what to do is too much for them. Because they are afraid , or unable to face shame when they can’t step up to the level of the teacher , partner or authority figure and their expectations or boundaries. Or they are so scared they cannot feel who to trust. So it is an endless journey of healing and finding the right fit, place person or modality.
But in the beginning all we have is our journey, and our kids always bring this back out. I could be wrong but it feels like a journey together. They have theirs to embark on, and ours to finish. It takes time to get to know the child, and time for them to find themselves.
Zac gave good advice for parenting and life. Identify things that take you away from real life and minimise time with them. And engage with yourself and your child as honestly as possible, in an age appropriate manner. And extend the same level,of love and care to yourself as you would your child.
To be modeled someone who is present , curious and kind to themselves and others is the biggest gift a child can be given.
Good luck, sounds beautiful that you found a little village , it’s the teachers that are most important for the child , and the other parents which are most important to you two
My brain is still on this subject 😂, Zac mentions that it is the teachers , not the system or the school which makes the difference. This was the case for me , I went to a small public school, very much off the radar. The principals were real ‘teachers’ , so in their right place. Aware of the system and how to navigate it, and with respect for the system which is ultimately put in place to help students, but also very much there , in their room. Not checked out, or the startled rabbit in the head lights of the system.
Small is good, everyone knew each others names , the faces were familiar, and you had a place. Meet the principal, they hire and fire the teachers and set the tone , more so than any other organisation or business I have been on. Then meet the teachers , get on the P and C , go to parent teacher nights. Even if they are not perfect, you setting the standard and the relationship as real improves their relationship with their job and your child.
Once again, the answers are simple, and terrifying. There is no magic pill, place or system, there is only relationship, and it is messy , scary and really fucking beautiful.
A school is as good as the teachers (who are able to be as good as the support they receive from the parents)....see you tonight!
in other simpler words :) So looking forward to seeing you Sarah and hearing the chat
I was sitting in the front row at Carriageworks, I came to see you and dragged my best friend along (who thanked me immensely for introducing her to you). It was my birthday and such a wonderful gift to hear you speak. I’ve been reading I eat the stars and I have almost finished. I have followed you on Substack and devoured the eloquent and brilliant ways you describe the often brutal reality of the happenings of the world. You’ve been a great source of inspiration for my own writing.. so thank you. I wanted to share with you a snippet of something I wrote earlier today.
“And so… with white knuckles, I grip on to humanness, anything that brings joy, messiness and the brilliance that it is to be to utterly and tragically “us”. In a body and mind that struggles to comprehend how we are both capable of the most deeply cruel and inhumane things- but also of the wonders and kindness that brings tears and soul abiding love. How can these things both be true? Surrounding yourself with those whose hearts practically burst out of their chests is the answer, and to be that person for others to follow alongside. That’s how we’ll offer ourselves to heal and survive”.
❤️
thank you for sharing...and thanks for bringing your friend along (and being smiling head nodders in the front row!!!)
That's really beautiful, thank you for sharing your writing.
Damn, that was a good discussion, and good timing Sarah. Probably the most balanced and realistic discussion about parenting and parental maturity, as well as a very practical guide for the current life situation on the planet.
Love how simple it all is, when dealing with a crisis, the simple, real, and loving things are the things to do. No cheat sheet, stacking, supplements, systems or hacks. Just real life, and courage and love. I have struggled with screen addiction , while also being aware of it and its impact on me and my child. And also watched my child be soft parented in the worst possible new age, avoidant and deluded way. It is all being addressed and repaired now which is great.
But as someone who has been at the coal face, I can say that Zak nails it in regard to the impacts on the child , and also the internal reality of the parent. I allowed my child to be raised in this way as I had no personal boundaries, courage or discipline. Or rather, my relating style inside of an abusive relationship, turned all of this off in me.
I am very disciplined, courageous and have strong boundaries. But the learning was to give them to myself , and also then bring them into relating with others. That has been my biggest learning , and also salvation in my role as a father. To parent myself and lead by example is all a parent can do. And also have humility and self compassion, with the 30% perfection rule in mind (do things right 30% of the time and that is enough to have a positive impact).
And to not be a hypocrite, a child learns through our actions , not our words, especially if we are talking bullshit. A childs ick reflex to power battles, hypocrisy, and injustice is very strong thank god. Good food, good chats, building things, doing things, just walking around and seeing the world and talking about it. love it
It should not be that way , but intimate relationships or parental relationships are the healing place for these internal glitches. And maybe , maybe, our own redemption and healing arc gives our children and our partners faith in their own development.
Spot on also re using kids to deal with our own guilt re destroying the world. Keep the conversations real, but also age appropriate, it is not a childs job to carry the world on their shoulders. But they should not be told lies either. A gentle initiation into life which is appropriate to the individual and their age. love it. And respect the elders, be honest about their actions and why, and how things can be done differently in the future. Don't deny the shadow in ourselves and our ancestors, instead see how and why it was used.
Thanks Steve. His argument is a little subtle...and requires going inward...which is his point! See you tomorrow!
I would also add , listen to your child , are they someone who wants to build things (business , guilds, schools etc) or do they want to just help and get a job. This will dictate if traditional school or a more free form school is more appropriate to guide them
And yes 🙌🏼
An engaged adult is waaaaayyyy more attractive than a bong or an iPad
a car load of teens and blasting Tool and WuTang says so 🥰😎😆
Subtle and also beautifully blunt and clear , and also very empowering. See you in the bay :)
I have listened to this one twice now - work in education as well, my neurodiverse students seem to be right on to this and looking for the adults to acknowledge and help. Hugely inspired by this interview thanks Sarah AND loved meeting you in person last night in Hobart with my new bunch of friends!! Appreciated the conversation and the gathering of like minds and hearts 💕
I loved the meetup!! And the chocolate. Glad you got to listen to this one x
Excellent discussion! Thank you both, and will definitely be sharing :)
As another teacher (at Uni) of Digital Media (eeek!) I have felt deeply conflicted about what I do for a long time - and yet at the same time a huge responsibility and commitment to my students and their ability to professionally contribute, have successful careers and live well.
The industry/world has changed so much in the time since I first started working in media (in the noughties), and while there have been incredible leaps and bounds when it comes to the tools and technologies we now use, the application, commercialisation and non-regulation of them is deeply concerning. I decided it's better to fight the system from within than without. So a big part of what I teach centers around ethics, values, rights, privacy, digital literacy and wellbeing; making sure students understand how the sausages are made in the sausage factory!
When I tell them that I don't use any social media (except LinkedIn for work) and have been banned from Facebook, it always captures their attention. Shock, horror! What did I do?? - I dared to ask for my data back and to delete a profile I hadn't used in 10 years. (And you thought hell had no fury like a woman scorned. Try Meta!) Their punitive customer retention policies and deceptive algorithms are draconian in this era of consent, transparency and control. It's like giving up a US passport, once you do, you can never get it back...except this is SOCIAL MEDIA!!!
Even a small pause for thought is a win in the classroom (or at home) and hopefully one small step towards critical thinking and behaviour change, which is what we all need to keep nudging towards. Thanks for the nudge! :)
I've experienced the same with X - kicked off, no ability to get back on. Lost 50,000 followers.
You might feel the same - I never could believe that these platforms would stay "free". I remember when Facebook almost shut down the IQS business, my staff got up in arms. But I had to point out there's no such thing as free lunch.
Great listen, thanks again @Sarah Wilson
I’m looking forward to reading this - https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/edit/10.4324/9781003543008/routledge-international-handbook-schooling-times-crisis-naomi-barnes-stewart-riddle-bridget-hughes-brian-beabout-joanne-hughes
This line from Zak, “That’s not how an educator thinks. That’s how an economist thinks” is so key to what’s making the education system that grew from a neoliberal, industrial and economic base broken. It’s purpose seems to be to train little conformist units, whose value comes from test scores and future output in the current system. Even the idea of homework, that the students work for the day can’t fit into the school day, feels like they are being trained to work overtime for free, and to think being so busy, tired and overwhelmed is a normal way to exist.
As a teacher working in the public system, I can say it is possible to fight this from within. This conversation was outstanding and will inspire me to keep making choices as an educator more concerned about helping the students make a meaningful life. That’s work worth doing.
I’ve spent the last 18 months researching what children will need to navigate the future that is unfolding, so this podcast was particularly relevant for me. I’m coming at it as a grandparent. When I see kids that are completely unanchored- disconnected from their own bodies, their feelings, nature and the humans around them, it makes me so sad. And they lack the skills to survive because, as Zak says, they’re missing the window of opportunity to build them. They’re addicted to screens and so are their parents. Gentle parenting simply does not work. We have to be adults around children, not their peers desperate to be liked.
One of the best things grandparents can do is NOT be on screens around grandkids. Role model something different. Get them engaged in real life, not the virtual world. Ask them questions, not just to show interest but to help them reflect. Tell them stories. Help them stretch themselves.
I know I probably sound judgmental of parents. It’s so much harder to be a parent these days. I get it. But we all have to stop and think about what’s really important in life. If we’re going to bring kids into this crazy world, we need to protect them and prepare them for the future.
There. Rant over. This podcast hit a nerve for me.
I loved this chat. I'm having some internal conflict about the gentle parenting stuff. Yes I need to look at myself and be a good role model but it did also feel like a cultural requirement. When my kids where little the emphasis was on attachment parenting, it felt like so much pressure to be perfect. I thought I was doing a good job but I definitely got some of it wrong.
I wish I could be more consistent with the simple but hard stuff. I'm a much better parent, human and role model when I eat healthy, exercise every day, go to sleep early, reduce screen time and read/meditate/journal and be more present. Too often I find myself staying up late, eating chocolate, watching netflix and skipping exercise and I wonder why. I don't know if it is apathy, lacking discipline, lacking meaning, boredom, wanting to stay comfortable, self sabotage or a strange type of rebellion. I hate that I find the simple stuff so hard.
Thank you. I was going to delete my comment yesterday but I'm glad I didn't. I appreciate your reply.
I’m pleased you didn’t and appreciate you having the courage to share that with the community Sarah has built here, I think that’s one of the things I love about these comment sections that is really unique compared to other substacks. We’re all real people with different thoughts and in different places but sharing an experience of life and not trying to pretend it’s all glorious or the opposite, like it’s all completely pointless and doomed.
We do reach for comforts when we need them, chocolate, netflix, etc.
I love that bit about a strange type of rebellion, I’m actually in a little bit of that at the mo, I’m kind of tired of all of the self helpy sort of lists of all of the ‘good’ stuff you should be doing… it in itself becomes a pressure cooker of must do’s and of course we know there is truth to them, better sleep does help, walking in nature does help, breathing does help, eating just the right combo of veggies and protein and fibre and so on and so on… then you can go crazy into the detail… so don’t just exercise… but the right type of exercise… my wife is in perimenopause stage of life so we have all of this hugely applified in our house, I’ve always been an anxious ‘health obsessor’ because my mum smokes and has type 2 diabetes and I never want to become that… but hey reality is… I bloody love cake yeh and I don’t always do the stretches or the walks or the maca powder or whatever… the rebellion does kick in and you’re like nah… today… this week… this month… can just do one, I’m gunna let it slide… but I equally allow the faith to be there that it will pass and the motivation will come back and it does, things change to what we can cope with in that moment I think.
I always do the zoom out thing… imagine your life is a metre long ruler… and this ‘phase’ you may find yourself in… it’s like 1mm on that ruler maybe… like it’s not that big a deal and it will still be part of your life journey and you will learn from it
Anyway… I’m waffling now 🙂
Not waffling at all, you pinpointed exactly how I'm feeling. I'm tired of the self helpy stuff as well. There is literally a rule for everything and I'm drowning in it. I love cake too.
EAT CAKE! Woohoo. Rebel. Enjoy.