I think Love has been lost in the social matrix, that's why there is an awkwardness about it being spoken. It is not a verb, but deep caring is a verb, and easy for most of us to trigger. The other new thing I've just learned is oxytocin, which is the chemical present when we experience deep caring, is also responsible for cell growth and wound healing. So what we can bring to the table again and again is the experience of deep caring. In can be for country, the natural world, a tiny creature, another human. Its a practice, a way of life.
thx Josephine. I write a big chunk in I EAT THE STARS on how I came to appreciate the power of love. It took me by surprise to realise how fundamental it is.
This was amazing. Thankyou Sarah. I worked as an engineer in refugee camps and war zones with Mededins Sans Frontieres 2003-2009 and I deeply appreciated this conversation.
A comment on Ece saying we lack the pathos, the passion to act. I agree and notice more and more sections of the population are being drugged to enable them to function in modernity - in its institutions of school, workplaces, and to cope with its pace and pressure. From children to teenagers to menopausal women we are being diagnosed and medicated for adhd, anxiety, depression, hormone imbalance, etc. This is not meant to criticise people being medicated, but rather than systems and environments of modernity, capitalism, patriarchy that we must all try to function within. One of the side effects of this medicating of the popuation is perhaps to diminish our pathos, our passion to act. Interested to hear what you think about this.
Beautiful, fortifying discussion, thank you Sarah and Ece. I’m so grateful to now be aware of Ece, thanks to you, Sarah. I’ve just reserved Nation of Strangers at my library and look forward to reading it.
Nation of Strangers is my best read of 2026 , so beautifully written and expressed . Sarah I have been looking forward to listening to your conversation with Ece. I am sure it will be courageous and supportive 🧡Thank you both.
Yes so honest and raw . I am passing my copy of the book to a friend who is making a Film in the UK “A Place Called Welcome “ about migration, kindness and belonging.
She supports asylum seekers and refugees in the UK.
What a deeply engaging conversation with Ece and where she is psychologically/spiritually now. Sarah I appreciate you reminding me of the main thesis of the book, it has been a while since I read it. We are all homeless or becoming homeless and how liberating being redundant to Empire is.
Love and Beauty is the answer as fascism does not have any of that ❤️
My questions for which a crystal ball is needed ..’does Ece see us coming out of fascism in the future and how can we achieve that ?
Very challenging questions in light of the UK election results today.
I ask them knowing dark times are ahead and similar to what Bertolt B said we will need to dance and sing through the dark times.
Oh I loved this conversation so much. Finding my tribe, and together, the ‘joy of being in the same shit together’ really encapsulates how I am existing today and not going insane. It’s a new reality in which we have to find humanity and somehow thrive. That’s all that remains as everything I knew as solid is collapsing.
There are so many friends, colleagues , associates in my life that are disengaged bc ‘too depressing’ , ‘too hard’, ‘managing my mental health’ (which I am getting better at not judging), I get it. But I do ask them, if getting out on the streets to voice your dissension on ‘these matters’ is not your thing, your passion, your anger…. Then what would move you to have your boots hit the pavement? What is your thing, your cause, your line that has been crossed. I am yet to get an answer to this. And that’s why democracy as we know it is dying. Privilege and comfort alive and well in white Australia.
I found your discussion very affirming and look forward to reading both your books. It's all felt increasingly like we are living in Bizarro World, which I guess is exactly what Project 25 set out to achieve. I can't believe in my home state of Victoria, that our Labor premier thinks AI Data Centres are going to provide a boon for the Victorian economy... in a climate crisis. The tech bros billionaires seem help bent on creating a world incompatible to human existence. I hold the whole notion of billionaires offensive - they should not exist in an equitable society. Thank you both for being leaders in this space and for providing solidarity to people like me, who can feel a bit like Chicken Little, living in a community where people would rather scapegoat minority groups than acknowledge the real issues and causes behind the many challenges facing our society.
Can’t wait to listen, currently very excited to start to read
i eat the stars,
perfect size, feels lovely Sarah, funny story, I have builders at my house so when the delivery came last week they all said, nah, haven’t seen it, I have searched high and low through all the chaos of the renovation site and finally just found it outside on top of the hot water heater, lucky it was undercover as it was delivered last Wednesday, in my hands now.
I’m sorry for bringing it up, but this autistic person crap has really gotta be toned way down. The men have got to be able to live past 40. I guess I’m considered autistic, can somebody please use a better term. I’m not autistic, whatever dude.
Wonderful conversation - can't wait to read Ece's books. Yep, trust the excluded ones. They live much closer to truth and full humanity. I have never heard of unhoming, but what a powerful, moving word.
I especially like the observation that we are not a self without the other. Bruce Lipton talks about this on a cellular and also a macro level. We are not an individual, we are a part of the whole. And it is the wholes interaction with the individual which shapes us. And makes us who we are. It is outside in, not inside out.
Similar to an electron , it does not exist in any one location in space and time, and yet it does exist. It is not until it is observed by the other that it suddenly exists in the world. While being both a wave form and a particle.
I am struggling with the proto-facism within myself and the broader world around me. Both within my old family system, and also the community that I live in. My individual ego is trying to either disconnect , or control the world around me. While I see my family members and the broader community around me suffering with immense mental health issues and distress.
It is this interface which we all need to work on. In our own space and time and communities.
It is the only way that we can undo the damage created by the malevolent neo liberal use of the digital age and its influence on the global system.
Would it be safe to say that communism , wokeism and other forms of collective self shaming and control are right brain/feminine manifestation of poor community mental health and distress. And facism is a left brain/ masculine manifestation of the same.
I see this in either the hippy / commune / conscious community types (ie WE (aka YOU) should do A B and C in order for ME to feel safe.
Or the yogi / spiritual / corporate burn out / tech bro types. The OTHER is unsafe , my body is unsafe and the world (and my body) needs to be controlled. So I (and WE (other similar diseased minds) collectively will force, fight and control the OTHER in order to feel safe and a part of the whole.
It is the charismatic sociopaths which understand human behaviour that are able to force these changes upon us. Either within families, communities, business, government or organised crime and the interaction between them all
And this is also seen within the out of balance self expressions within individuals which then spread out amongst the community. Gender and role confusion within teens and the mentally ill, body adaptation, modification and life expanding / bio hacking, group think and mobbing of either an anti woke or a right wing individual or even now an antisemitic (aka calling out of Israel).
I think Love has been lost in the social matrix, that's why there is an awkwardness about it being spoken. It is not a verb, but deep caring is a verb, and easy for most of us to trigger. The other new thing I've just learned is oxytocin, which is the chemical present when we experience deep caring, is also responsible for cell growth and wound healing. So what we can bring to the table again and again is the experience of deep caring. In can be for country, the natural world, a tiny creature, another human. Its a practice, a way of life.
thx Josephine. I write a big chunk in I EAT THE STARS on how I came to appreciate the power of love. It took me by surprise to realise how fundamental it is.
An excellent interview, many thanks to you both for brightening my early morning.
This was amazing. Thankyou Sarah. I worked as an engineer in refugee camps and war zones with Mededins Sans Frontieres 2003-2009 and I deeply appreciated this conversation.
A comment on Ece saying we lack the pathos, the passion to act. I agree and notice more and more sections of the population are being drugged to enable them to function in modernity - in its institutions of school, workplaces, and to cope with its pace and pressure. From children to teenagers to menopausal women we are being diagnosed and medicated for adhd, anxiety, depression, hormone imbalance, etc. This is not meant to criticise people being medicated, but rather than systems and environments of modernity, capitalism, patriarchy that we must all try to function within. One of the side effects of this medicating of the popuation is perhaps to diminish our pathos, our passion to act. Interested to hear what you think about this.
I think so, too.
Beautiful, fortifying discussion, thank you Sarah and Ece. I’m so grateful to now be aware of Ece, thanks to you, Sarah. I’ve just reserved Nation of Strangers at my library and look forward to reading it.
love libraries! x
Nation of Strangers is my best read of 2026 , so beautifully written and expressed . Sarah I have been looking forward to listening to your conversation with Ece. I am sure it will be courageous and supportive 🧡Thank you both.
It's a stunning read...intimate and melancholy
Yes so honest and raw . I am passing my copy of the book to a friend who is making a Film in the UK “A Place Called Welcome “ about migration, kindness and belonging.
She supports asylum seekers and refugees in the UK.
What a deeply engaging conversation with Ece and where she is psychologically/spiritually now. Sarah I appreciate you reminding me of the main thesis of the book, it has been a while since I read it. We are all homeless or becoming homeless and how liberating being redundant to Empire is.
Love and Beauty is the answer as fascism does not have any of that ❤️
My questions for which a crystal ball is needed ..’does Ece see us coming out of fascism in the future and how can we achieve that ?
Very challenging questions in light of the UK election results today.
I ask them knowing dark times are ahead and similar to what Bertolt B said we will need to dance and sing through the dark times.
Oh I loved this conversation so much. Finding my tribe, and together, the ‘joy of being in the same shit together’ really encapsulates how I am existing today and not going insane. It’s a new reality in which we have to find humanity and somehow thrive. That’s all that remains as everything I knew as solid is collapsing.
There are so many friends, colleagues , associates in my life that are disengaged bc ‘too depressing’ , ‘too hard’, ‘managing my mental health’ (which I am getting better at not judging), I get it. But I do ask them, if getting out on the streets to voice your dissension on ‘these matters’ is not your thing, your passion, your anger…. Then what would move you to have your boots hit the pavement? What is your thing, your cause, your line that has been crossed. I am yet to get an answer to this. And that’s why democracy as we know it is dying. Privilege and comfort alive and well in white Australia.
Thanks for this discussion.
that opening bit of the chat captured me, too...I've used that response a few times since - that I'm better now that other people are getting it.
I found your discussion very affirming and look forward to reading both your books. It's all felt increasingly like we are living in Bizarro World, which I guess is exactly what Project 25 set out to achieve. I can't believe in my home state of Victoria, that our Labor premier thinks AI Data Centres are going to provide a boon for the Victorian economy... in a climate crisis. The tech bros billionaires seem help bent on creating a world incompatible to human existence. I hold the whole notion of billionaires offensive - they should not exist in an equitable society. Thank you both for being leaders in this space and for providing solidarity to people like me, who can feel a bit like Chicken Little, living in a community where people would rather scapegoat minority groups than acknowledge the real issues and causes behind the many challenges facing our society.
A pleasure, from my end.
Interestingly, ppl are really upset by the data centres and are protesting them. I know there was one slated in WA and protests shut the idea down
Thank you Sarah.
I feel the shift of the New World. Not an easy adjustment being an older retiree.🙏
I don't think it is for any of us. Although Gen Z are certainly more open to lack of certainty!
Can’t wait to listen, currently very excited to start to read
i eat the stars,
perfect size, feels lovely Sarah, funny story, I have builders at my house so when the delivery came last week they all said, nah, haven’t seen it, I have searched high and low through all the chaos of the renovation site and finally just found it outside on top of the hot water heater, lucky it was undercover as it was delivered last Wednesday, in my hands now.
I'd have been thrilled if you'd found them reading it!
I wish 😂
Unbelievable interview - you both blew my mind.
An absolutely wonderful and inspiring conversation. Thank you both 💗🌸✨
I’m sorry for bringing it up, but this autistic person crap has really gotta be toned way down. The men have got to be able to live past 40. I guess I’m considered autistic, can somebody please use a better term. I’m not autistic, whatever dude.
Wonderful conversation - can't wait to read Ece's books. Yep, trust the excluded ones. They live much closer to truth and full humanity. I have never heard of unhoming, but what a powerful, moving word.
A beautiful conversation 🙏🏼
I especially like the observation that we are not a self without the other. Bruce Lipton talks about this on a cellular and also a macro level. We are not an individual, we are a part of the whole. And it is the wholes interaction with the individual which shapes us. And makes us who we are. It is outside in, not inside out.
Similar to an electron , it does not exist in any one location in space and time, and yet it does exist. It is not until it is observed by the other that it suddenly exists in the world. While being both a wave form and a particle.
I am struggling with the proto-facism within myself and the broader world around me. Both within my old family system, and also the community that I live in. My individual ego is trying to either disconnect , or control the world around me. While I see my family members and the broader community around me suffering with immense mental health issues and distress.
It is this interface which we all need to work on. In our own space and time and communities.
It is the only way that we can undo the damage created by the malevolent neo liberal use of the digital age and its influence on the global system.
Would it be safe to say that communism , wokeism and other forms of collective self shaming and control are right brain/feminine manifestation of poor community mental health and distress. And facism is a left brain/ masculine manifestation of the same.
I see this in either the hippy / commune / conscious community types (ie WE (aka YOU) should do A B and C in order for ME to feel safe.
Or the yogi / spiritual / corporate burn out / tech bro types. The OTHER is unsafe , my body is unsafe and the world (and my body) needs to be controlled. So I (and WE (other similar diseased minds) collectively will force, fight and control the OTHER in order to feel safe and a part of the whole.
It is the charismatic sociopaths which understand human behaviour that are able to force these changes upon us. Either within families, communities, business, government or organised crime and the interaction between them all
And this is also seen within the out of balance self expressions within individuals which then spread out amongst the community. Gender and role confusion within teens and the mentally ill, body adaptation, modification and life expanding / bio hacking, group think and mobbing of either an anti woke or a right wing individual or even now an antisemitic (aka calling out of Israel).