Thank you for introducing us to another wonderful author. I wanted to add for some women, the art of quilting making has also been used to bring women together in hard times. Australia’s most famous quilt is called, ‘The Rajah Quilt’ made in 1841. It started as provisions donated by the Society in England to women prisoners who were being shipped to Van Diemons Land. Women who were displaced by the Industrial Revolution and fallen in hard times. This mindfulness of sewing brings me peace and connects me to an art form that crosses continents , languages and cultures.times.
Thanks for another brilliant episode Sarah. Ruth’s clarifying historical perspective really helps, and offers new energy for how we can resist effectively. Can’t wait to read your book Ruth! Yoga and getting into nature gets a vote from me too 😊
I thoroughly enjoyed this Sarah, thank you. I was so sad when the serialisation ended but I am loving where this is all heading now. It really is just the beginning. Hearing about the personality traits and tricks of the dodgy leaders was fascinating. I have been sucked in by numerous people in the past who are experts at playing victim so I do understand how this happens. OMG how good is yoga. I tried it for the first time last week and loved it.
I'm back. Sorry. These are the types of discussions that stay in my head. Listening to this gave me the same sense of relief and understanding when I found out what a narcissist was and could see the pattern clearly. Knowing how to handle this type of personality has resulted in me having so much more peace in my life. The examples that Ruth gave on how certain leaders have manipulated and generated sympathy was enlightening. Recognising the game they are playing gives us some power back and helps see through the bullshit. I really really enjoyed this. Thanks again.
Thanks for this conversation with Ruth Ben-Ghiat. She’s one of my go-to thinkers on current world politics. And much appreciation in general for your conversations with serious thinkers. Some folks whose work I’ve been influenced by and impressed with that I’d love to see you interview: Daniel Schmachtenberger, Vanessa Machado de Olivieri Androtti, Adrienne Maree Brown, Bill Plotkin, Naomi Klein, Yuval Harari, and Krista Tippet. I’m new to your podcast so apologies if I’ve suggested folks you’ve already considered or spoken to. I’m still catching up and Substack can be quite the overwhelming place. Just want to say I love what you’re doing and am thrilled to have discovered your podcast. Much gratitude from BC Canada!
Thx Susan. I know Daniel but he's not really doing ivs at moment (except for one big one coming up, I believe), Vanessa appeared on my last ep. AMB I've tried to connect with, but no joy!! Sigh...xx
Well we may have unknowingly crossed paths then. Maybe waited together in line at the GVM 😊 Hope you’re enjoying Gabriola, I haven’t been up there yet!
Probably! 😊 I love it here. Smaller, quieter, not as touristy. Lots of beaches, walking trails and a wonderful sense of community. And ferries every half hour! If you’re ever up this way, let me know - we can chat over a cup of coffee and see who we know in common.
This subject has always fascinated me as it goes to some very strange areas of human behaviour.
Which the tech bros and successful tyrants over the years have gleefully utilised for their short term gain. But with longterm and far reaching effects on humanity’s health and wellbeing.
Obscured by shame and also I think some very deep subconscious drives.
But also I think because it overwhelms us.
I notice the silence here on the subject , it is whisper quiet.
I recently discussed overwhelm and cognitive dissonance with my therapist. And I think this is partly at play in this space.
It also ventures into the world of personality disorders and deep narcissism, and it’s happy twin the codependent.
These Strong men or Superbros (or even the female equivalent such as Margaret Thatcher or Imelda Marcos) are the peak narcissist. As close to a socio path as you can get, but still with an unquenchable desire to be accepted. To the point that they need to manipulate everyone and reality to get it.
This is often driven due to deep trauma or being around a sociopath which strips an individual of all sense of reality’ and belonging. Elon and Trump were both raised by sociopaths.
I was discussing moments of trauma with my therapist and what my felt reality was. Was I angry, sad, afraid or left with a sense of numbness or WTF! confusion?
Which all relates to the natural response of our nervous system. If we have agency we either run or fight, if we lose both then we go numb or numb ourselves.
I have had experiences within complex family systems where the matriarch or patriarch has narcissistic tendencies.
The most intense was with the matriarch. For a codependent (someone with no sense of self(the opposite of a narcissist (who has a false sense of self). Or for a “normie” this is really really weird.
People forget that someone like the matriarch of my story or Trump or Elon. Is operating within a completely different reality. And their interaction with the world is able to warp our shared reality and that of others.
But only for a limited period of time. As life fights back as the system is not real and outside of the normal boundaries of life, love and physics.
But in the meantime what we have is an encounter with our own narcissist or co dependent.
Who craves the power these people project , and the release of the anger and frustration.
Or the codependent who wants to submit and be controlled and cuddled by the sky daddy or mummy. To let them take care of the baddies out there. Whom we are the victim of.
The spell these people weave is incredible. As it appears like charisma, and courage and confidence and sweetness. But tastes like Splender or Stevia.
Ruth points this out really well.
Tulsi in particular confused me, I was drawn to her as I like an attractive , articulate and strong woman. And she seemed to get what was wrong with the system.
But when I looked deeper she had already been indoctrinated into cults (Hari Krishna off shoot I think).
So was either already looking for sky daddy or Trump, or was part of her cult leaders plans for influence.
Interesting also that deluded religious people already in either the organised cults or offshoots of Christianity , Islam or Jewdaism all flock to Trump.
They either recognise that type of power and know how to use it. Or want to lay themselves down at the alter.
In the meantime everyone else is left scratching their heads and asking WTF!! In a sense of overwhelm and despair. As it makes no sense.
Until the SS is at our door, and it snaps us out of the brain fog.
But once again the answer is simple, recognise it in ourselves. And recognise that you cannot argue or persuade or work with the person or problem.
Everytime I have tried this it has been DARVO’ed.
Denied , you are attacked, or it is reversed, they become the Victim and you become the offender. All of which has been playing out in the White House. And on battle fields for centuries.
Instead just build the future or outcome that you want. Do not attack or accuse or involve the other person.
Use the good and proper means at your disposal to create what you want.
If you need to interact with the person, do not open yourself to them , but also do not deny they exist.
It is almost like starting to play a game or make a yummy meal next to a pissed off child.
If you do it because you love it, and not to shame them or make them feel left out.
They will either disappear or sidle up beside you and join in the fun
Here are some field notes I wrote during listening to this interview
The effects of gurus and Personal Development grifters and Spiritual Narcissists on people looking for a god or a daddy, or just plain HELP in a complex world.
(I remember doing a session with an “expert/guru” who suddenly, while deep in a process with me started talking about himself and his own child hood. For a second my fevered brain thought he had identified some lost memories of my own childhood). It was then I understood how you can be brain washed.
Each scared individual manipulates the other
That’s the narcissistic trap , a controller with someone who wants to be controlled
Who we choose to represent us is our job, if they do not have clear values or vision and demonstrates them then do not vote for them.
Are they honest? Are they healthy in body and mind? Do they have very clear values and can communicate them clearly and execute accordingly. If not, fuck them off.
Media has been slowly stoking our rage and base emotions. Media is owned and ruled by the same individuals.
We need guides on how to exit the system in a safe way
And ways to stand up to a narcissist in a safe way
Like the friend who needs to say hey girl, that dude is a narcissistic fucktard. GET OUT. But we stay silent for so many dumb reasons.
Non violence is essential , but to also expect violence , how to defend and disperse very very quickly by using Guerrilla resistance with non violence.
inconvenience and confuse and disrupt the system. Go around and steal all of the Amazon packages in your neighbourhood and donate them to a charity shop or women’s shelter for example.
Understand the trauma and the motive
That is the funny thing , the meta crisis almost exposes the rot within autocratic systems quicker
Can we identify our own shadows and human behaviour and notice it and call it out early?
I think there is an awareness of the danger involved around these people and the systems they create. People either fawn and fall in line, or fight back ,collapse in despair or recognise the opportunity and become one of the snakes.
Either way , the systems created make resistance difficult, everyone is the enemy, the cognitive dissonance is astounding and compounding as the facism machine gets going.
Calling a spade a spade is a start , not with big labels like narcissist , fascist etc etc. Just the simple feelings in the body that everyone can relate to. This is personal, real , and in the moment. There is no right or wrong or us vs them.
A simple what they say and what they do does not sit right with me. He / she sounds like a liar, and they seemto be picking a fight with immis, trans, lefties, etc etc.
Followed by, I want to know how he/she is going to fix A B and C (ie the real issues present right now).
And as the old political parties dissolve (ie labour in the UK) then is the time to start new ones , become and independent or align with existing ones that are functional.
And learn good self defence and work on your cardio 🤣🤦🏻♂️ because in places like the UK and the US shit is going to get weird and violent quite soon. Even QLD , VIC and NSW is almost there with their anti protest rules and pandering to Zionists, and their other supporters.
Having a very grounded and innate sense of the beauty of our own personhood is the start, I think. Loving our neighbours. For me it is being able to look at the face of an enemy and see my brother. That comes out of knowing who I am inside and experiencing perfect freedom in that love, because the justice that is served in that love is the kind that changes and heals things. I am fully human when I can stand in the power of my own innate goodness and love across political, economic, ideological divides. You just can't argue with that kind of love. It exposes what it is not above and beyond argument, position taking, violence, etc.
I love this example , love your enemy as yourself. Recognise their anger or fear as your own.
I have feared confrontation most of my life. Have been in regulation and enforcement in public health and environmental protection for a large part of it.
It was not until I could hold my own fear, and anger and frustration that I could become an effective regulator , teacher and leader.
If I came across something that was wrong. I could just say with a smiled well this is fucked isn’t it 😆🤦🏻♂️. Let’s have a chat and figure out how to fix it. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Someone else from the comment section was just in touch too about chatting, which I'd love to do. I wonder about revisiting that community zoom call. Message me and lets figure something out for anyone who is interested? There's got to be a time when western Canada and Australia are both in daylight hours.
Hi Steve, your post ended up being a private nudge in the messaging part of Substack, which I appreciated. I haven't listened to the above recording and I am not sure that I can. My own spirit/psyche/moral framework is telling me that I need to dig deeply into generative practices of community, imagination, and play, and that more information about the men who rule us will cause my nervous system to tap out again.
I was, however, caught by the idea of strongmen and staged victimhood as a theological principle, as it has underpinnings with the Girardian philosophy with which Theil has developed his worldview.
A man's staged victimhood is exactly what happens in the origin stories of the Hebrew Scriptures, as Adam says "she made me do it" about Eve. Eve is the first scapegoat. It's been traditionally framed as a story about disobedience and how discord and separation from a divine nature entered our world, but I think it is equally about personal responsibility, power, and victimhood and how these play out in our world. It is fascinating to think about this in relation to the Christian Scriptures (all written by people who were very, very Jewish within Hebrew culture and practice), as women and men without power by virtue of disability, slavery, or from foreign cultures were the first to recognize the incarnate presence of the divine. It was the scapegoated and the oppressed who could truly recognize the power inherent in a Messiah who became the biggest scapegoat the world has ever seen. Mimetic desire and scapegoating will never truly work in the end as a way to control the masses in the long term, but will serve the purposes of fulfilling the birth of the freedoms they are trying to destroy.
The reality of Vance being a proxy for Theil, whose surveillance goals and domination process is based on the theory of Renee Girard's memetic desire and scapegoating, is not lost on me. It's laughable that Vance, a Catholic, has said the Pope should stay out of moral and political matters when they are trying to weaponize a theological theory that is a literal bomb in their own hands. I'm hoping that Pope Leo, who understands the theological and spiritual elements of mimetic desire, will let it rip with a critique of this all. And how those who choose to dehumanize with such impunity only end up illuminating the innate power inherent in free will, and beauty of humanity in the end. He may have touched on it in his latest encyclical on AI, and if so, I hope his critique is made more accessible to a wider audience. The only person I know who reads encyclicals is my husband 🤓
Thank you so much Madeleine 🙏🏼 I apologise for intruding your space. And keep doing what you are doing.
But was curious to generate some discussion. As I felt like this subject is also one which people fear to tread.
Everyone is fried right now, which is good. We talked about it at the subs meet up.
When your capacity is down. Only the love and precious things remain.
I will look into what you have shared , and I hope that you were not offended by the cult comments. I am a believer in God or Goddess or spirt. And i believe in religious insight and connection to spirit. I say Cult when faith falls into victimhood and loss of self responsibility.
This is seen in modern life where we put all our faith into the “system” but are also a victim to it. And do not want to contribute to making it in gods image. Good , and just and right.
Your explanation of the journey of the Jews is beautiful to read. I will research it more. As I am aware of the wisdom of the old Jewish faiths and also of the early Islam faiths before they were corrupted. Love to you all over in Canada
Sarah, do you have any guests coming up who have advice re non violent protest and resistance. And also effective ways to respond to violence which does not escalate or give the underlings the excuse they are looking for to hurt others.
Police brutality and state surveillance is already here. And the Labour and Liberal governments will use it in order to try and keep the status que.
While civil unrest and a slide into fascism is highly likely.
I appreciate this question. Our municipal police chief just travelled to Israel to train with the Israeli police. It's hard not to freak out a bit as we have this ridiculous separation referendum coming up this fall, and evidence coming out that there has been foreign interference in our provincial politics and media.
It seems that the organised crime/politics tactics and trends are spreading like wild fire. Just like the latest TikToks.
Maybe he took an online course from one of these assholes and then decided to do the in person training 😆🤦🏻♂️
But for real , I have been hearing about Chinese interference in Canada and Australia for a while.
Mainly in the shape of a rich property developer throwing cash around the politicians.
The same thing happens here on the Gold Coast. Or it always has, there has always been greedy people fudging the system. But it was done in a sneaky and underhanded way. Under the radar , but now it is all in the open. And they are going hell for leather to get theirs before the time runs out.
I've had a chance to listen and digest this latest pod but as per the post and my extensive comments on that, I am weaning off of substack and I'm still unsure about continuing to be on here tbh so we shall see where that ends up.
Thanks Steve C reaching out and the nudge on this episode, as we discussed privately, it's been a bit full on here for me, work ramping up, it's also half term school holidays in the UK, we've had a crazy heat wave too and spinning all the plates with dad duty, work duty, husband duty son duty and so on... time allowances only stretch so far... hence the substack reflection too as it is sucking time that doesn't exist, all be it with content I enjoy consuming, knowledge, opinions etc, but in an honest reflection of all of that... to what purpose all of this knowledge serves.... I don't know.
Anyways... here's my two pence.
First off, something controversial: I celebrate the strongmen. Why? Because they are the one that expose the weaknesses with democracy more than any 'moral' leader ever will. When you have what you might call a 'good' leader... who sticks within moral boundaries let's say... they never stretch the limits or seek ways around the structure, so the structure never gets tested, so they never tighten things up and so everyone thinks things are fine. But they are not and we get lazy by thinking they are when you get a charismatic lovely person in power.
Strongmen will break 'rules' and test the structure... they are the ones that create the new test cases in law to set new boundaries for future leaders to try to limit power. The strongmen are also needed to galvanise people - to question people's beliefs and what sort of future they want. This is a good thing. We need these people.
I also celebrate them because they are in power due to the democratic process that existed at that time - the process that ALLOWED them into these positions. You can argue about if this is 'good or bad' and the 'dumbness' of the people that vote for the popular strongmen, but at the end of the day, people chose them, that has to be respected and to deny that vote and those people, makes 'us' (playing along with the us vs them theme) just as bad as the strongmen.
But... the us vs them thing is actually highlighted in the chat - that this is a theme of strongmen, creating division. And yet here we are, falling for it, talking of how we overthrow 'them' and resist and so on... this is division in itself. It is exactly the thing they play on. Look at all these people calling you dumb for voting for me... these are the enemy and so on.
Sarah, you often talk of sitting with discomfort, sitting through the hard times, leaning in to the pain and so on. Well isn't that part of it? I know it was mentioned in the chat, about sitting it out vs resisting. But resisting what - your fellow citizens who chose these leaders? Doesn't this itself create bigger fractures in society, the exact fractures that the strongmen seek to further their agenda and strengthen their power. What if we listen. What if we learn. What if we don't try to tell people they are wrong for celebrating these people in power that are offering them hope in desperate times.
Because that is what alot of this is about. Hope. Aspiration for a better future. Being able to wake up and tell their kids that tomorrow will be a better day. The alternative (the 'truth' you might say)... that the world is fucked and everything is collapsing and there's little point in hoping because fuel is running out, food is going to get scarcer, prices will rise, ai will take your job and so on... humans live by stories. We are amazing at that 'suspended disbelief' thing - we can all see what's happening, even the 'dumb' people that vote for the populists... they know... but they still want a better outcome, and the guys that promise that story.... well they like it.
In my area, Reform are rising up and are most likely going to sink Labour in the next election. I haven't met a person yet that doesn't understand all of their lies and bullshit, and yet they still want them. The same was true of Trump. People just want hope. So unless someone else with some kind of better moral compass if that's what you want to suggest is needed, can offer that, then it's going to keep going this way and we have to just be in that, yeh it's painful and it hurts to see innocent people being murdered and hurt and so on... it's brutality, sure, but isn't that life?
This is all framed through western and largely American elitism too. That America has some moral duty to 'save the world' by resisting their awful leader. You think any other leader in the past was any better? You've seen that stat online about why wars are named after the country that being attacked and not the country that started them... it's because for the past 200 odd years or whatever, it would just be called the American war! It's about time this 'power' got the hell over itself and accepts it has no moral duty or high ground over the rest of the world. It is high time we let things play out and see new powers come to fruition too, let's watch, and listen and see how the global south, how Africa and the developing world might have its moment and rebalance all of the western arrogance that it's up to us to 'fix things' who do we think we are?
Who are we fixing things for exactly? The status quo of white power, whether that be neo-liberal or otherwise. Most of the COP climate change suggestions etc are not about protecting humans universally, they are about protecting systems of climate that stabilise western power only.
I am fully aware that this sounds like a promotion of these people and the power structures. I am not. What I'm trying to throw out there, is that the alternative voices are simply not presenting anything that lives in reality, the Greens are rising in the UK only by using the exact same tactics as the Strongmen... is this good? I don't think so. Are they offering any level of truth - nope! Can we get anywhere close to Net Zero 2050 - no way, there's not enough resources in copper or lithium etc to get anywhere near the electrification needed to 'save the world'. But in this moment, do people honestly want the truth - can they really cope with being told and accepting that we will need to live with less... ? What political leader would ever get into power by offering that message ... seriously... no in wishful thinking terms even though we all know that's what might need to happen and it will all come crumbling down one day... but who elects people that offers that story?
Story is what it's about. And fairness. And we're in a world right now where alot of people realise that life isn't fair, and it probably never will be... so... hell.. let's just take what we can, it's almost like we're in 'looting' mode.... before everything does eventually run out... why should I / Me sacrifice all the good things to live a morally better life, when 'everyone else' is out there looting and having a darn better time than I am sitting here in misery dreading the future.
There is the story of living in nature, sharing, connection, humanity etc... but I just don't think that lands. I saw that play out in Covid massively. I remember it. Everyone connected, the community spirit rose hugely when all the restrictions were in place, and we were all told 'we're all in this together' and there was a sense of fairness and fighting spirit and doing what was right to protect the weakest... then the fractures came through... local facebook groups reporting on their neighbours throwing a party of get together, breaking the rules, how unfair when I'm sat here... well screw it, I might as well go and see my mum too... she misses me... and it spreads and spreads, and none of these people are doing it out of malice or because they are bad people, they are 'breaking the rules' for all different reasons - for love of others that were in need of social connection, for belief in their own immune systems, there was big push especially within the anti-vax 'spiritual' world who rejected the government and authoritarian system who perceived it was all about control and taking away civil liberties etc.. that the 'protection of the wider community' i.e. older vulnerable people, was just a cover story... so anyway... this is how it all plays out...
Life is messy isn't it. We need to just work with the mess as it is - all parts of the mess, strongmen and weakmen and moral men and moral women, or whatever the opposite of a strongman is.
I would like to know an exact profile of the 'ideal' opposite of a strongman. What do they offer exactly, who are they? How do they fix things? How do they operate in a global collapsing system and still offer hope or help the people understand what is happening and then... why would anyone vote for that?
I find it's very easy to see and say what we don't like. Much harder to define what we do like, and then to properly celebrate that thing if/when it might arrive.
Final thought... if the strongmen didn't exist... how would the opposite voices exist... ?
Thanks Mark. Do you think the Greens are using the same tactics? I think they are to the extent they are creating story/myth for people, and responding to fear.
I get your point re the role Strongmen are playing - bringing to the surface the rot of the system. But I'd rather rejoice leaders who see the rot and try to heal what they can, preserve the part of democracy that continue to serve us. You're flagging an odd tension...the system is rotten, but do we let it just rip? I think democracy is possibly the best political structure we have...we've not been fighting for it (as all the other things have distracted us, injured us, fragmented us etc)...a vacuum has been created ...and bad faith actors have stepped in. I don't think fascists have to be an inevitable part of democracy and the political system. That said, can "good" leaders fix this clusterfuck? Probably not anymore...so I guess I land back at your point....
I don’t know enough about democracy as a whole structural thing and the formation of it from ancient times etc I have read and studied bits of it so have a basic understanding but my bigger picture thinking says: does it always work? What proof is there… if there have been systems collapses and if each time the democratic systems faulters, it’s filled with fascism… then is democracy really working and why is there no imagination to step outside of this as a system… why is there no alternative option that we could shape for the future. You talk of hive mindset, emergence, ground up and so on, the democracy I’ve seen has still be a central leader figure… Ok we vote them in but look at the voting systems in place, turn out percentages are so low etc.
Then I wonder… is fascism actually a necessary part of democracy? As I say, you need ‘baddies’ the generate the ‘goodies’ as this is the simple story that humans still love to cling on to, can we even think beyond this? Is it possible to not be so binary? Good vs evil. We may not like or agree with facsicm, but neither do they like or agree with lefty liberalism… and yet we all have to find a way to get along right? Instead we pendulum swing from right to left… sometimes a little stutter in the middle… but that’s what I mean… like aren’t both necessary to maintain ‘democracy’ … it doesn’t just serve one half of the population… the surge in the UK for Reform… the support for Trump, the support for other authoritarian strongmen etc… there are real people voting for them, is their voice not valid under a democratic system? Even if we find their policies and ‘morals’ difficult to stomach… we have to live among all walks and all opinions to have a healthy society. Of course we have preferences and likes, but that doesn’t mean dissmissing a whole chunk of society.
Part of me genuinely thinks… yes… we are a sort of new territory, not new as in the past 10 years or so… but even the last 100 years where we see repeated fascism rising… if it keeps returning there must be a purpose, the mindset of folks voting this way doesn’t go away just because we have a few years of centrist or liberal governance… so yeh… there is an element in me of let it rip… maybe it leads to a new system of governance, maybe things really do need to be smashed apart instead of trying to cling on to old beliefs around traditional democracy… but in this roughness we have to find ways to still express ourselves, still be open about our likes and vision for a future and share these stories, we can still protect our own vision, our own ideas and obv physically and mentally protect ourselves as things get ragey and angry and wild… and we can still offer an ear and listen to the rage, be present with it.
When you say we have not been fighting for democracy… this is correct… so it could be because of all the distractions you mention… but it could also be because humans only fight when really necessary, when backed into a corner… which is perhaps what is happening now… so yes… maybe fight if you trully beleive… but I wonder… as above.. do people really trust or believe in democracy still? Maybe we do regret the moment it ‘falls’ or is this part of the wider, longer term cycle of power/control/governance that plays out over several generations and will be rediscovered again in the future. Personally, I will admit I am less in ‘fight’ camp and more in ‘curious’ camp about what may become of the moment and how it plays out. I’m one of those exact people that progressives hate, which I’m fine with, don’t force me to think a certain way, that’s no different to a strongman, and I don’t like strongmen either.
What is a ‘good’ leader in today’s world … honestly? Someone that tells the truth about the state of things… as I say… how will people vote for someone full of such gloom? 15 minute cities, towns of cyclists, cleaner air, less flights, crafting, sharing, swap shops, second hand living etc might excite certain folk as a story of hope but the vast majority do not want limits set by governments on what they can or can’t do.
If we are true advocates and believers in community and humanity and that is in our core (it is in mine) then for me, that doesn’t involve any level of ‘fighting’ people I don’t like or disagree with, it involves listening and engaging and understanding and having dialogue, and I’m not talking about dialogue in order to change their mind or ‘influence’ them… it’s to live alongside people that are fearful for their future and be OK with that.
The central theme of de-screening and educating ojr children was about role-modelling right? Why is this any different? We role-model what we believe in. Again, I am grounded by my life focus/ mantra:
Expect nothing.
Remain curious.
Lead with love and kindness.
If that means progressives who want me to fight fall out with me, so be it, if that means right wing strongmen think I’m weak and call me whatever, so be it. I’ve handles worse situations in life.
Thank you for introducing us to another wonderful author. I wanted to add for some women, the art of quilting making has also been used to bring women together in hard times. Australia’s most famous quilt is called, ‘The Rajah Quilt’ made in 1841. It started as provisions donated by the Society in England to women prisoners who were being shipped to Van Diemons Land. Women who were displaced by the Industrial Revolution and fallen in hard times. This mindfulness of sewing brings me peace and connects me to an art form that crosses continents , languages and cultures.times.
Nice one rochelle
Thanks for another brilliant episode Sarah. Ruth’s clarifying historical perspective really helps, and offers new energy for how we can resist effectively. Can’t wait to read your book Ruth! Yoga and getting into nature gets a vote from me too 😊
I thoroughly enjoyed this Sarah, thank you. I was so sad when the serialisation ended but I am loving where this is all heading now. It really is just the beginning. Hearing about the personality traits and tricks of the dodgy leaders was fascinating. I have been sucked in by numerous people in the past who are experts at playing victim so I do understand how this happens. OMG how good is yoga. I tried it for the first time last week and loved it.
I'm back. Sorry. These are the types of discussions that stay in my head. Listening to this gave me the same sense of relief and understanding when I found out what a narcissist was and could see the pattern clearly. Knowing how to handle this type of personality has resulted in me having so much more peace in my life. The examples that Ruth gave on how certain leaders have manipulated and generated sympathy was enlightening. Recognising the game they are playing gives us some power back and helps see through the bullshit. I really really enjoyed this. Thanks again.
Thanks for this conversation with Ruth Ben-Ghiat. She’s one of my go-to thinkers on current world politics. And much appreciation in general for your conversations with serious thinkers. Some folks whose work I’ve been influenced by and impressed with that I’d love to see you interview: Daniel Schmachtenberger, Vanessa Machado de Olivieri Androtti, Adrienne Maree Brown, Bill Plotkin, Naomi Klein, Yuval Harari, and Krista Tippet. I’m new to your podcast so apologies if I’ve suggested folks you’ve already considered or spoken to. I’m still catching up and Substack can be quite the overwhelming place. Just want to say I love what you’re doing and am thrilled to have discovered your podcast. Much gratitude from BC Canada!
Thx Susan. I know Daniel but he's not really doing ivs at moment (except for one big one coming up, I believe), Vanessa appeared on my last ep. AMB I've tried to connect with, but no joy!! Sigh...xx
Hello from a fellow Canadian BCer👋
Hey! Greetings from Gabriola Island 😊
We’re almost neighbours, I’m on Salt Spring!
My old stomping grounds! I lived on Salt Spring from 2010 - 2019. A beautiful island!
Well we may have unknowingly crossed paths then. Maybe waited together in line at the GVM 😊 Hope you’re enjoying Gabriola, I haven’t been up there yet!
Probably! 😊 I love it here. Smaller, quieter, not as touristy. Lots of beaches, walking trails and a wonderful sense of community. And ferries every half hour! If you’re ever up this way, let me know - we can chat over a cup of coffee and see who we know in common.
This subject has always fascinated me as it goes to some very strange areas of human behaviour.
Which the tech bros and successful tyrants over the years have gleefully utilised for their short term gain. But with longterm and far reaching effects on humanity’s health and wellbeing.
Obscured by shame and also I think some very deep subconscious drives.
But also I think because it overwhelms us.
I notice the silence here on the subject , it is whisper quiet.
I recently discussed overwhelm and cognitive dissonance with my therapist. And I think this is partly at play in this space.
It also ventures into the world of personality disorders and deep narcissism, and it’s happy twin the codependent.
These Strong men or Superbros (or even the female equivalent such as Margaret Thatcher or Imelda Marcos) are the peak narcissist. As close to a socio path as you can get, but still with an unquenchable desire to be accepted. To the point that they need to manipulate everyone and reality to get it.
This is often driven due to deep trauma or being around a sociopath which strips an individual of all sense of reality’ and belonging. Elon and Trump were both raised by sociopaths.
I was discussing moments of trauma with my therapist and what my felt reality was. Was I angry, sad, afraid or left with a sense of numbness or WTF! confusion?
Which all relates to the natural response of our nervous system. If we have agency we either run or fight, if we lose both then we go numb or numb ourselves.
I have had experiences within complex family systems where the matriarch or patriarch has narcissistic tendencies.
The most intense was with the matriarch. For a codependent (someone with no sense of self(the opposite of a narcissist (who has a false sense of self). Or for a “normie” this is really really weird.
People forget that someone like the matriarch of my story or Trump or Elon. Is operating within a completely different reality. And their interaction with the world is able to warp our shared reality and that of others.
But only for a limited period of time. As life fights back as the system is not real and outside of the normal boundaries of life, love and physics.
But in the meantime what we have is an encounter with our own narcissist or co dependent.
Who craves the power these people project , and the release of the anger and frustration.
Or the codependent who wants to submit and be controlled and cuddled by the sky daddy or mummy. To let them take care of the baddies out there. Whom we are the victim of.
The spell these people weave is incredible. As it appears like charisma, and courage and confidence and sweetness. But tastes like Splender or Stevia.
Ruth points this out really well.
Tulsi in particular confused me, I was drawn to her as I like an attractive , articulate and strong woman. And she seemed to get what was wrong with the system.
But when I looked deeper she had already been indoctrinated into cults (Hari Krishna off shoot I think).
So was either already looking for sky daddy or Trump, or was part of her cult leaders plans for influence.
Interesting also that deluded religious people already in either the organised cults or offshoots of Christianity , Islam or Jewdaism all flock to Trump.
They either recognise that type of power and know how to use it. Or want to lay themselves down at the alter.
In the meantime everyone else is left scratching their heads and asking WTF!! In a sense of overwhelm and despair. As it makes no sense.
Until the SS is at our door, and it snaps us out of the brain fog.
But once again the answer is simple, recognise it in ourselves. And recognise that you cannot argue or persuade or work with the person or problem.
Everytime I have tried this it has been DARVO’ed.
Denied , you are attacked, or it is reversed, they become the Victim and you become the offender. All of which has been playing out in the White House. And on battle fields for centuries.
Instead just build the future or outcome that you want. Do not attack or accuse or involve the other person.
Use the good and proper means at your disposal to create what you want.
If you need to interact with the person, do not open yourself to them , but also do not deny they exist.
It is almost like starting to play a game or make a yummy meal next to a pissed off child.
If you do it because you love it, and not to shame them or make them feel left out.
They will either disappear or sidle up beside you and join in the fun
What are your thoughts?
Rather than writing another essay 🤦🏻♂️
Here are some field notes I wrote during listening to this interview
The effects of gurus and Personal Development grifters and Spiritual Narcissists on people looking for a god or a daddy, or just plain HELP in a complex world.
(I remember doing a session with an “expert/guru” who suddenly, while deep in a process with me started talking about himself and his own child hood. For a second my fevered brain thought he had identified some lost memories of my own childhood). It was then I understood how you can be brain washed.
Each scared individual manipulates the other
That’s the narcissistic trap , a controller with someone who wants to be controlled
Who we choose to represent us is our job, if they do not have clear values or vision and demonstrates them then do not vote for them.
Are they honest? Are they healthy in body and mind? Do they have very clear values and can communicate them clearly and execute accordingly. If not, fuck them off.
Media has been slowly stoking our rage and base emotions. Media is owned and ruled by the same individuals.
We need guides on how to exit the system in a safe way
And ways to stand up to a narcissist in a safe way
Like the friend who needs to say hey girl, that dude is a narcissistic fucktard. GET OUT. But we stay silent for so many dumb reasons.
Non violence is essential , but to also expect violence , how to defend and disperse very very quickly by using Guerrilla resistance with non violence.
inconvenience and confuse and disrupt the system. Go around and steal all of the Amazon packages in your neighbourhood and donate them to a charity shop or women’s shelter for example.
Understand the trauma and the motive
That is the funny thing , the meta crisis almost exposes the rot within autocratic systems quicker
Can we identify our own shadows and human behaviour and notice it and call it out early?
Yes I agree - We need guides on how to exit the system in a safe way
And, yep, collapse exposes the rot...it is indeed speeding things up and autocratic backfire is part of this...links in with Extinction Burst, too
I think there is an awareness of the danger involved around these people and the systems they create. People either fawn and fall in line, or fight back ,collapse in despair or recognise the opportunity and become one of the snakes.
Either way , the systems created make resistance difficult, everyone is the enemy, the cognitive dissonance is astounding and compounding as the facism machine gets going.
Calling a spade a spade is a start , not with big labels like narcissist , fascist etc etc. Just the simple feelings in the body that everyone can relate to. This is personal, real , and in the moment. There is no right or wrong or us vs them.
A simple what they say and what they do does not sit right with me. He / she sounds like a liar, and they seemto be picking a fight with immis, trans, lefties, etc etc.
Followed by, I want to know how he/she is going to fix A B and C (ie the real issues present right now).
And as the old political parties dissolve (ie labour in the UK) then is the time to start new ones , become and independent or align with existing ones that are functional.
And learn good self defence and work on your cardio 🤣🤦🏻♂️ because in places like the UK and the US shit is going to get weird and violent quite soon. Even QLD , VIC and NSW is almost there with their anti protest rules and pandering to Zionists, and their other supporters.
Having a very grounded and innate sense of the beauty of our own personhood is the start, I think. Loving our neighbours. For me it is being able to look at the face of an enemy and see my brother. That comes out of knowing who I am inside and experiencing perfect freedom in that love, because the justice that is served in that love is the kind that changes and heals things. I am fully human when I can stand in the power of my own innate goodness and love across political, economic, ideological divides. You just can't argue with that kind of love. It exposes what it is not above and beyond argument, position taking, violence, etc.
I love this example , love your enemy as yourself. Recognise their anger or fear as your own.
I have feared confrontation most of my life. Have been in regulation and enforcement in public health and environmental protection for a large part of it.
It was not until I could hold my own fear, and anger and frustration that I could become an effective regulator , teacher and leader.
If I came across something that was wrong. I could just say with a smiled well this is fucked isn’t it 😆🤦🏻♂️. Let’s have a chat and figure out how to fix it. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Someone else from the comment section was just in touch too about chatting, which I'd love to do. I wonder about revisiting that community zoom call. Message me and lets figure something out for anyone who is interested? There's got to be a time when western Canada and Australia are both in daylight hours.
Hi Steve, your post ended up being a private nudge in the messaging part of Substack, which I appreciated. I haven't listened to the above recording and I am not sure that I can. My own spirit/psyche/moral framework is telling me that I need to dig deeply into generative practices of community, imagination, and play, and that more information about the men who rule us will cause my nervous system to tap out again.
I was, however, caught by the idea of strongmen and staged victimhood as a theological principle, as it has underpinnings with the Girardian philosophy with which Theil has developed his worldview.
A man's staged victimhood is exactly what happens in the origin stories of the Hebrew Scriptures, as Adam says "she made me do it" about Eve. Eve is the first scapegoat. It's been traditionally framed as a story about disobedience and how discord and separation from a divine nature entered our world, but I think it is equally about personal responsibility, power, and victimhood and how these play out in our world. It is fascinating to think about this in relation to the Christian Scriptures (all written by people who were very, very Jewish within Hebrew culture and practice), as women and men without power by virtue of disability, slavery, or from foreign cultures were the first to recognize the incarnate presence of the divine. It was the scapegoated and the oppressed who could truly recognize the power inherent in a Messiah who became the biggest scapegoat the world has ever seen. Mimetic desire and scapegoating will never truly work in the end as a way to control the masses in the long term, but will serve the purposes of fulfilling the birth of the freedoms they are trying to destroy.
The reality of Vance being a proxy for Theil, whose surveillance goals and domination process is based on the theory of Renee Girard's memetic desire and scapegoating, is not lost on me. It's laughable that Vance, a Catholic, has said the Pope should stay out of moral and political matters when they are trying to weaponize a theological theory that is a literal bomb in their own hands. I'm hoping that Pope Leo, who understands the theological and spiritual elements of mimetic desire, will let it rip with a critique of this all. And how those who choose to dehumanize with such impunity only end up illuminating the innate power inherent in free will, and beauty of humanity in the end. He may have touched on it in his latest encyclical on AI, and if so, I hope his critique is made more accessible to a wider audience. The only person I know who reads encyclicals is my husband 🤓
I love reading your words Madeleine x
Thank you so much Madeleine 🙏🏼 I apologise for intruding your space. And keep doing what you are doing.
But was curious to generate some discussion. As I felt like this subject is also one which people fear to tread.
Everyone is fried right now, which is good. We talked about it at the subs meet up.
When your capacity is down. Only the love and precious things remain.
I will look into what you have shared , and I hope that you were not offended by the cult comments. I am a believer in God or Goddess or spirt. And i believe in religious insight and connection to spirit. I say Cult when faith falls into victimhood and loss of self responsibility.
This is seen in modern life where we put all our faith into the “system” but are also a victim to it. And do not want to contribute to making it in gods image. Good , and just and right.
Your explanation of the journey of the Jews is beautiful to read. I will research it more. As I am aware of the wisdom of the old Jewish faiths and also of the early Islam faiths before they were corrupted. Love to you all over in Canada
Have a little listen
Very relevant
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7CLs46yzT2GZN6Zc0myI6S?si=TO-dM9GORxi9WZ1LvS4OHg
Sarah, do you have any guests coming up who have advice re non violent protest and resistance. And also effective ways to respond to violence which does not escalate or give the underlings the excuse they are looking for to hurt others.
Police brutality and state surveillance is already here. And the Labour and Liberal governments will use it in order to try and keep the status que.
While civil unrest and a slide into fascism is highly likely.
I appreciate this question. Our municipal police chief just travelled to Israel to train with the Israeli police. It's hard not to freak out a bit as we have this ridiculous separation referendum coming up this fall, and evidence coming out that there has been foreign interference in our provincial politics and media.
It seems that the organised crime/politics tactics and trends are spreading like wild fire. Just like the latest TikToks.
Maybe he took an online course from one of these assholes and then decided to do the in person training 😆🤦🏻♂️
But for real , I have been hearing about Chinese interference in Canada and Australia for a while.
Mainly in the shape of a rich property developer throwing cash around the politicians.
The same thing happens here on the Gold Coast. Or it always has, there has always been greedy people fudging the system. But it was done in a sneaky and underhanded way. Under the radar , but now it is all in the open. And they are going hell for leather to get theirs before the time runs out.
Oh my goodness 😳
Good question.
Will do Susan and same to you if you come back here for a visit. Gabriola sounds lovely ✨
I've had a chance to listen and digest this latest pod but as per the post and my extensive comments on that, I am weaning off of substack and I'm still unsure about continuing to be on here tbh so we shall see where that ends up.
Thanks Steve C reaching out and the nudge on this episode, as we discussed privately, it's been a bit full on here for me, work ramping up, it's also half term school holidays in the UK, we've had a crazy heat wave too and spinning all the plates with dad duty, work duty, husband duty son duty and so on... time allowances only stretch so far... hence the substack reflection too as it is sucking time that doesn't exist, all be it with content I enjoy consuming, knowledge, opinions etc, but in an honest reflection of all of that... to what purpose all of this knowledge serves.... I don't know.
Anyways... here's my two pence.
First off, something controversial: I celebrate the strongmen. Why? Because they are the one that expose the weaknesses with democracy more than any 'moral' leader ever will. When you have what you might call a 'good' leader... who sticks within moral boundaries let's say... they never stretch the limits or seek ways around the structure, so the structure never gets tested, so they never tighten things up and so everyone thinks things are fine. But they are not and we get lazy by thinking they are when you get a charismatic lovely person in power.
Strongmen will break 'rules' and test the structure... they are the ones that create the new test cases in law to set new boundaries for future leaders to try to limit power. The strongmen are also needed to galvanise people - to question people's beliefs and what sort of future they want. This is a good thing. We need these people.
I also celebrate them because they are in power due to the democratic process that existed at that time - the process that ALLOWED them into these positions. You can argue about if this is 'good or bad' and the 'dumbness' of the people that vote for the popular strongmen, but at the end of the day, people chose them, that has to be respected and to deny that vote and those people, makes 'us' (playing along with the us vs them theme) just as bad as the strongmen.
But... the us vs them thing is actually highlighted in the chat - that this is a theme of strongmen, creating division. And yet here we are, falling for it, talking of how we overthrow 'them' and resist and so on... this is division in itself. It is exactly the thing they play on. Look at all these people calling you dumb for voting for me... these are the enemy and so on.
Sarah, you often talk of sitting with discomfort, sitting through the hard times, leaning in to the pain and so on. Well isn't that part of it? I know it was mentioned in the chat, about sitting it out vs resisting. But resisting what - your fellow citizens who chose these leaders? Doesn't this itself create bigger fractures in society, the exact fractures that the strongmen seek to further their agenda and strengthen their power. What if we listen. What if we learn. What if we don't try to tell people they are wrong for celebrating these people in power that are offering them hope in desperate times.
Because that is what alot of this is about. Hope. Aspiration for a better future. Being able to wake up and tell their kids that tomorrow will be a better day. The alternative (the 'truth' you might say)... that the world is fucked and everything is collapsing and there's little point in hoping because fuel is running out, food is going to get scarcer, prices will rise, ai will take your job and so on... humans live by stories. We are amazing at that 'suspended disbelief' thing - we can all see what's happening, even the 'dumb' people that vote for the populists... they know... but they still want a better outcome, and the guys that promise that story.... well they like it.
In my area, Reform are rising up and are most likely going to sink Labour in the next election. I haven't met a person yet that doesn't understand all of their lies and bullshit, and yet they still want them. The same was true of Trump. People just want hope. So unless someone else with some kind of better moral compass if that's what you want to suggest is needed, can offer that, then it's going to keep going this way and we have to just be in that, yeh it's painful and it hurts to see innocent people being murdered and hurt and so on... it's brutality, sure, but isn't that life?
This is all framed through western and largely American elitism too. That America has some moral duty to 'save the world' by resisting their awful leader. You think any other leader in the past was any better? You've seen that stat online about why wars are named after the country that being attacked and not the country that started them... it's because for the past 200 odd years or whatever, it would just be called the American war! It's about time this 'power' got the hell over itself and accepts it has no moral duty or high ground over the rest of the world. It is high time we let things play out and see new powers come to fruition too, let's watch, and listen and see how the global south, how Africa and the developing world might have its moment and rebalance all of the western arrogance that it's up to us to 'fix things' who do we think we are?
Who are we fixing things for exactly? The status quo of white power, whether that be neo-liberal or otherwise. Most of the COP climate change suggestions etc are not about protecting humans universally, they are about protecting systems of climate that stabilise western power only.
I am fully aware that this sounds like a promotion of these people and the power structures. I am not. What I'm trying to throw out there, is that the alternative voices are simply not presenting anything that lives in reality, the Greens are rising in the UK only by using the exact same tactics as the Strongmen... is this good? I don't think so. Are they offering any level of truth - nope! Can we get anywhere close to Net Zero 2050 - no way, there's not enough resources in copper or lithium etc to get anywhere near the electrification needed to 'save the world'. But in this moment, do people honestly want the truth - can they really cope with being told and accepting that we will need to live with less... ? What political leader would ever get into power by offering that message ... seriously... no in wishful thinking terms even though we all know that's what might need to happen and it will all come crumbling down one day... but who elects people that offers that story?
Story is what it's about. And fairness. And we're in a world right now where alot of people realise that life isn't fair, and it probably never will be... so... hell.. let's just take what we can, it's almost like we're in 'looting' mode.... before everything does eventually run out... why should I / Me sacrifice all the good things to live a morally better life, when 'everyone else' is out there looting and having a darn better time than I am sitting here in misery dreading the future.
There is the story of living in nature, sharing, connection, humanity etc... but I just don't think that lands. I saw that play out in Covid massively. I remember it. Everyone connected, the community spirit rose hugely when all the restrictions were in place, and we were all told 'we're all in this together' and there was a sense of fairness and fighting spirit and doing what was right to protect the weakest... then the fractures came through... local facebook groups reporting on their neighbours throwing a party of get together, breaking the rules, how unfair when I'm sat here... well screw it, I might as well go and see my mum too... she misses me... and it spreads and spreads, and none of these people are doing it out of malice or because they are bad people, they are 'breaking the rules' for all different reasons - for love of others that were in need of social connection, for belief in their own immune systems, there was big push especially within the anti-vax 'spiritual' world who rejected the government and authoritarian system who perceived it was all about control and taking away civil liberties etc.. that the 'protection of the wider community' i.e. older vulnerable people, was just a cover story... so anyway... this is how it all plays out...
Life is messy isn't it. We need to just work with the mess as it is - all parts of the mess, strongmen and weakmen and moral men and moral women, or whatever the opposite of a strongman is.
I would like to know an exact profile of the 'ideal' opposite of a strongman. What do they offer exactly, who are they? How do they fix things? How do they operate in a global collapsing system and still offer hope or help the people understand what is happening and then... why would anyone vote for that?
I find it's very easy to see and say what we don't like. Much harder to define what we do like, and then to properly celebrate that thing if/when it might arrive.
Final thought... if the strongmen didn't exist... how would the opposite voices exist... ?
Thanks Mark. Do you think the Greens are using the same tactics? I think they are to the extent they are creating story/myth for people, and responding to fear.
I get your point re the role Strongmen are playing - bringing to the surface the rot of the system. But I'd rather rejoice leaders who see the rot and try to heal what they can, preserve the part of democracy that continue to serve us. You're flagging an odd tension...the system is rotten, but do we let it just rip? I think democracy is possibly the best political structure we have...we've not been fighting for it (as all the other things have distracted us, injured us, fragmented us etc)...a vacuum has been created ...and bad faith actors have stepped in. I don't think fascists have to be an inevitable part of democracy and the political system. That said, can "good" leaders fix this clusterfuck? Probably not anymore...so I guess I land back at your point....
I don’t know enough about democracy as a whole structural thing and the formation of it from ancient times etc I have read and studied bits of it so have a basic understanding but my bigger picture thinking says: does it always work? What proof is there… if there have been systems collapses and if each time the democratic systems faulters, it’s filled with fascism… then is democracy really working and why is there no imagination to step outside of this as a system… why is there no alternative option that we could shape for the future. You talk of hive mindset, emergence, ground up and so on, the democracy I’ve seen has still be a central leader figure… Ok we vote them in but look at the voting systems in place, turn out percentages are so low etc.
Then I wonder… is fascism actually a necessary part of democracy? As I say, you need ‘baddies’ the generate the ‘goodies’ as this is the simple story that humans still love to cling on to, can we even think beyond this? Is it possible to not be so binary? Good vs evil. We may not like or agree with facsicm, but neither do they like or agree with lefty liberalism… and yet we all have to find a way to get along right? Instead we pendulum swing from right to left… sometimes a little stutter in the middle… but that’s what I mean… like aren’t both necessary to maintain ‘democracy’ … it doesn’t just serve one half of the population… the surge in the UK for Reform… the support for Trump, the support for other authoritarian strongmen etc… there are real people voting for them, is their voice not valid under a democratic system? Even if we find their policies and ‘morals’ difficult to stomach… we have to live among all walks and all opinions to have a healthy society. Of course we have preferences and likes, but that doesn’t mean dissmissing a whole chunk of society.
Part of me genuinely thinks… yes… we are a sort of new territory, not new as in the past 10 years or so… but even the last 100 years where we see repeated fascism rising… if it keeps returning there must be a purpose, the mindset of folks voting this way doesn’t go away just because we have a few years of centrist or liberal governance… so yeh… there is an element in me of let it rip… maybe it leads to a new system of governance, maybe things really do need to be smashed apart instead of trying to cling on to old beliefs around traditional democracy… but in this roughness we have to find ways to still express ourselves, still be open about our likes and vision for a future and share these stories, we can still protect our own vision, our own ideas and obv physically and mentally protect ourselves as things get ragey and angry and wild… and we can still offer an ear and listen to the rage, be present with it.
When you say we have not been fighting for democracy… this is correct… so it could be because of all the distractions you mention… but it could also be because humans only fight when really necessary, when backed into a corner… which is perhaps what is happening now… so yes… maybe fight if you trully beleive… but I wonder… as above.. do people really trust or believe in democracy still? Maybe we do regret the moment it ‘falls’ or is this part of the wider, longer term cycle of power/control/governance that plays out over several generations and will be rediscovered again in the future. Personally, I will admit I am less in ‘fight’ camp and more in ‘curious’ camp about what may become of the moment and how it plays out. I’m one of those exact people that progressives hate, which I’m fine with, don’t force me to think a certain way, that’s no different to a strongman, and I don’t like strongmen either.
What is a ‘good’ leader in today’s world … honestly? Someone that tells the truth about the state of things… as I say… how will people vote for someone full of such gloom? 15 minute cities, towns of cyclists, cleaner air, less flights, crafting, sharing, swap shops, second hand living etc might excite certain folk as a story of hope but the vast majority do not want limits set by governments on what they can or can’t do.
If we are true advocates and believers in community and humanity and that is in our core (it is in mine) then for me, that doesn’t involve any level of ‘fighting’ people I don’t like or disagree with, it involves listening and engaging and understanding and having dialogue, and I’m not talking about dialogue in order to change their mind or ‘influence’ them… it’s to live alongside people that are fearful for their future and be OK with that.
The central theme of de-screening and educating ojr children was about role-modelling right? Why is this any different? We role-model what we believe in. Again, I am grounded by my life focus/ mantra:
Expect nothing.
Remain curious.
Lead with love and kindness.
If that means progressives who want me to fight fall out with me, so be it, if that means right wing strongmen think I’m weak and call me whatever, so be it. I’ve handles worse situations in life.