48 Comments
User's avatar
Matthew Curlewis's avatar

Thanks for addressing – as usual with you! – this hugely important topic Sarah. What a beautiful conversation. And Francis has pearl after pearl of wisdom for us – what gifts! For anyone who might like a bit of support around this issue, with several Amherst Writers & Artists colleagues, every other Monday I co-facilitate a group called “The Art of Loss: Writing Through Grief.” I love the line, “Some pain can’t be healed, but it can be held.” In these groups, as co-facilitators, we simply hold the space for our participants (and ourselves) to re-engage with some of the ritual – some of the “group” processes around grief. Feelings of loss can apply to... glaciers, jobs, democracy, living spaces... and people we love. And grief runs through all of it. If you'd like to write with fellow human beings who by embracing so much of our loss, find ourselves able to laugh again, come join us – because that’s the totality of life: love, loss, and laughter. These workshops are low cost, and are part of AWA’s commitment to the support of individuals and communities, through writing. Info available here:

https://amherstwriters.org/2025/08/20/the-art-of-loss/#!event-list

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Thanks for flagging Matthew - online groups or IRL?

Matthew Curlewis's avatar

You're welcome Sarah. Online at present, but I've begun IRL again recently for different workshops, and hope to do some IRL as well later this year for Art of Loss.

Cathy's avatar

Loved this Sarah. Francis has been a dear comrade on this road for many and his perspective on the long dark I find deeply wise and true. Somewhere else he writes about his role in the long dark (he, me and many of us won’t see through it to the other side) which is to plant seeds of possibility and remembrance so those that come in future generations might find at least one of them useful. I’m trying to orient myself around this - so less about any achievement for myself and more about what what small offering or action might be of use way way way down the road.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

much like that quote about planting the tree you'll never get to sit under

Megan Christie's avatar

This conversation has deeply resonated. Thank you 🙏🏻

Jocelyn Meyer's avatar

Sitting on a bus to Melbourne where I will hear you talk IRL.

So grateful for you, Francis and this series of Wild.

So much to digest and sit with.

Again Thank you.🙏

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Jocelyn, glad your bus made it and truly joyful to be able to touch your hand last night. xx

Jocelyn Meyer's avatar

So lovely to meet you at last.

I’m sorry if I overstepped the mark and made it too personal.

You must be so tired and you are doing so well keeping all the bells in the air.

I am in awe of you!❤️

Kate's avatar

This sounds like a wonderful opportunity Matthew. Where are you based?

Matthew Curlewis's avatar

Thanks Kate. I’m based in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands.https://amsterdamwriters.com/writers_stretch_and_tone/

Nicola Philp's avatar

A timely Wild as I wade through the grief of losing my lovely Dad. I think for me it's the reaching out into the space where he once was and finding the infinite emptiness in his shape. He is still in my heart and soul, but the physical space is currently quietly whistling with the melancholy of his permanent and raw absence. I cry most days still, I'm crying now as i type this and that feels nice.

I totally loved when Francis talked about remembering his connections to all of Earth's creatures. Sometimes when I look up at the full moon I see her face looking down on us and she looks as sad as I feel - kind of like a 'what have you done to yourselves down there?' but at the same time with a twist of an maternally indulgent 'well you'll have to relearn it all and come back to yourselves' (mostly for all of us who grew up with the 'endless growth, colonial lie' I suspect).

As a person who is classified as 'highly sensitive' (I expect many of your readers are which is why they are here) I sometimes viscerally feel things like an animal hit by a car or the tree cut down that I walk past every day to work and cry about even years later. It can be a lot but it's nice to know it's okay to keep just moving that on through my body and witnessing the moments that others choose to either ignore or initiate. Bearing witness becomes so much more important.

Group singing is one way of honouring nature and connection - my seasonal singing crew get together weekly and often one of us is dealing with loss of some form and we just give them a sound bath and bask in the healing of harmonies. None of us individually are superstar singers but as a group it's so incredibly healing and powerful you float off at the end.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Thank you Nicola. I feel the sadness in your words here. I feel the moon and the trees and mountains watching us and, yes, saying something like,'what have you done to yourselves down there?'. x

Kate's avatar

I loved this conversation Sarah. Francis has such deep, wisdom which he expresses with such clarity - always planting himself firmly in a profound love for the earth and our animal kin, for humanity, for life. He shares his experience and ideas in such a thoughtful, articulate way always referencing those beautiful indigenous life lifting ways. The practice of carrying grief and gratitude in our hands , and through ritual releasing our sorrows that we hold in our hearts and our gut seems to be a realistic way to move patiently within and through this darkness that has been created by humans as we have endeavored to create an individualist paradigm, throwing off the thousands of years of communal bonds. But acknowledging our grief, our sorrows and knowing we are not alone in this can also be the very thing that brings us back to what makes us human and humane. I feel a great weight has shifted as I ponder all my connections and kin - stone, river, ocean, gum tree, butterfly, koala and kookaburra and so many more including some fellow humans who have jumped off the neo liberal rat wheels to take the slow lane. We all feel deep sorrow as we experience the cries of the earth once the industrial level noise of modern life is quieted. Thank you, thank you, thankyou for your brilliant choice and questions for Francis. I will return to this Wild Chat often.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

I'm just sorry the recording wasn't great.

Rochelle's avatar

Thank you Sarah for this beautiful conversation and my first global grief was watching the towers fall in 2001. We were all so lost in images playing out on live TV and constant repeat for years. I felt the collective grief for all the ‘missing people’ and felt profoundly we have changed as a western culture.

In nature, my children and I lived through our grief after Cyclone Larry in 2006. We were called to walked through the local rain forest afterwards, and all the trees were stripped naked of leaves. The forest floor was waist high in leaf litter and the sun burned through the canopy, where we use to enjoy shade. That moment too was hard to reconcile, to bare witness to brutal forces that destroyed- everything, how do we grieve nature’s strength?

My life time has experienced the worst of men and nature separated at times. This next earthy phase will be the worst of men and nature combined. I’m trying to prepare my body and mind to process the emotional and mental anguish, knowing the waves will come faster and faster, like the winds of the cyclone.

Thank you for reminding us we aren’t to resist or control our emotions/ grief. We need to allow the grief, don’t be numb and move with it. I’m looking forward to where this darkness will take us. The light isn’t the goal, we need to sit in this sacred time and grow in it.

Thank you 🙏 I will need to sit with this a little longer.

Sincerely

Rochelle

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Donna Haraway's line comes to my mind just now - stay with the trouble. x

Elissa's avatar

Thank you Sarah. I could listen to you and Francis all day. Such a needed conversation 💜🙏🏻

A collective of us inspired by his work and the Wild Edge Of Sorrow are holding a ‘Grief Rave’ in Melbourne, Australia in July. A way to meet our grief through music, movement and witnessing. For those interested, details are here: https://events.humanitix.com/winter-grief-rave-melbourne

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Oh wow, that's awesome. I'm sharing with a few of my Melb friends xx

Demeter's avatar

My grandmother used to say: Shared joy is double joy, shared grief is half grief.

Do the maths.

Zane Zinkl's avatar

Everything human needs to be collective. All our settler-colonial/imperial/outlaw ideology is antithetical to happiness and wellbeing on Planet Earth. This is in alignment with most spiritual traditions. Connecting with each other and connecting with the land is the main treatment of the psychosomatic symptoms of alienation. Alienation is literally a medically-recognized cause of disease.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

The Greeks called it acedia...a loneliness from connection to meaning

Kirsten Bradley's avatar

This was such a great convo 🤗

Monique Dalgleish PhD's avatar

Wow Sarah, you are on fire with these Wild’s.

This one spoke directly to my current overwhelm Francis, in ways that are still washing over me. I recently found myself in ED for a night on intravenous antibiotics for pneumonia. The liminal space I occupied that night confronted me with the stark awareness that I needed to shut down the noise, to come to ground and find stillness.

I had realised that I was becoming more and more at risk but had been unable to find peace even though I had laid more and more boundaries in the ways so many of your guests suggest Sarah. I realised that I was totally overwhelmed by the state of the world. More specifically, I had lived in Chile for four years, Venezuela for eighteen months and had visited Cuba, I knew viscerally the arrogance of the US and the damage they had wrought in those places. I realised that my recent deep dive into their and their cronies behaviour in West Asia, had led me to feel a force of anger and shame at the propagandist lies we had believed as I continued to witness the destruction that was being wrought right now. That night in hospital I realised that all of this had brought my usually robust good health to this crisis.

Resting in my nest at home in silence or in the gentle sway of Persian and Iranian jazz, I found that grief in the loss of important loved ones emerged. I found myself conjuring my father, who died suddenly at fifty two, my oldest and dear friend who died at forty, and all the other precious ones. In a kind of soirée of reverie, I remembered the magic we had shared and took the opportunity to say the things I never had the chance to say. So many tears, so much joy. I imagined us together dancing our wackiest moves, (as they all would have enjoyed to do), to the slinky jazz. It is the most wonderfully liberating experience and feels so healing.

I began to write messages from the heart to my closest living family and friends, reminiscing about the magic of shared experiences and thanking them for all unique ways that they contributed to making me who I am. At the same time I feel so much more present and able to engage with nature and meaningful objects around me, and so much more alive to the aching fragility of it all.

Sarah, I have also always found funerals to be such heart spaces too, collectively grieving with love and joy at the sheer magnificence of life. I realise that my healing process is slow, but wonderfully slow, and that the stillness and presence is allowing me to reconnect with my village in deeper and more heartfelt ways.

There is so much more to say but maybe that is for another time.

Thank you Francis, I am fascinated by the prospects for greater collective grieving.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Monique, love the still energy in your words. They've been a reminder to me here today...feeling frazzled and caught up. It's cold and windy and I've not slept and I'm letting the noise get to me.

Monique Dalgleish PhD's avatar

Oh Sarah, you are giving so much to us all at the moment with your extraordinary output of brilliant content. Try to take more time for you to recharge. If I were you right now, I would try to get warm as best you can. Find somewhere still and breathe slowly and steadily. If you can manage a quiet, gentle, vibrant hum on the out breath it will help to calm you down. Big hugs, I’m breathing calm, steady energy your way, I hope it helps.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

I also meant to ask - but failed to - have you recovered from your health scare?? PS I'm about to head to infrared pilates class

Monique Dalgleish PhD's avatar

I am well on the way to recovery and feeling a world of wisdom is flowing from this experience. Wow, infared class, love to know what it’s like

Jan Darr's avatar

To Remain Human

Brian Lewis, Cosmic Poet, UK

The nervous system

was never designed

to carry the grief

of an entire planet

Yet here we are

A child starving

crosses our screen

between weather reports

and advertisements

Forests burn beside stock prices

Wars arrive

in the same hand

that holds photographs

of our grandchildren

And somewhere inside us

something ancient

keeps trying

to respond

This is the exhaustion

few know how to name

Not simply stress

Not simply fear

But the unbearable collision

between the human heart

and the scale

of modern awareness

We were meant

to know the sorrow

of the village

Now we are asked

to metabolize

the suffering

of civilizations

And many are drowning

Some in rage

Some in distraction

Some in endless performance

Some in irony so thick

it becomes a shield

against feeling anything real

Others quietly disappear

inside themselves

their spirits dimming

beneath the constant demand

to remain informed

productive

available

certain

The world keeps shouting

Choose a side

Move faster

Consume more

Outrage harder

Win

But the soul

does not speak

in that language

The soul speaks

through silence

through grief

through awe

through the sudden trembling

that arrives

when one human being

finally feels

the reality

of another

This is why

so many people

stand at the edge

of breakdown

Not because they are weak

But because they are porous

Because somewhere beneath

the armor

their humanity

is still functioning

And perhaps

that is what must now

be protected

Not merely ecosystems

Not merely institutions

But the fragile interior capacities

that allow human beings

to remain human

inside an age

that profits from fragmentation

To remain tender

without collapsing

To remain informed

without becoming consumed

To remain compassionate

without surrendering discernment

To stand before suffering

without turning away

and yet also

without allowing suffering

to transform the heart

into stone

This is harder

than revolution

Harder than ideology

Harder than certainty

Because it asks something

few civilizations

have ever learned to cultivate

strength

without cruelty

Perhaps this is why

small acts matter so much now

A hand on a shoulder

A teacher

who notices the silent child

A man planting trees

whose shade

he will never live to sit beneath

A woman refusing

to let cynicism

be mistaken for wisdom

These are not small things

They are the architecture

of psychological survival

The architecture

of repair

And maybe the future

will not ultimately be decided

by those

who accumulated the most power

but by those

who learned

how to carry immense complexity

without surrendering

their capacity

for love

Because civilizations do not die

only from invasion

or collapse

They also die

when people can no longer feel

one another

When exhaustion

becomes identity

When distraction

becomes culture

When tenderness

becomes embarrassment

When the human nervous system

finally says

enough

But I do not believe

that ending

is inevitable

I think there are still people

quietly rebuilding

the interior world

Still people

teaching children wonder

Still people

protecting beauty

Still people

who understand

that compassion

is not sentiment

It is infrastructure

And perhaps

the task before us now

is not merely

to save the world

but to become

the kind of people

capable

of inhabiting it together

Sarah Wilson's avatar

thanks for sharing

kamil's avatar

I just saved this to watch later, pero I can’t wait. I’m a grief worker leading a space for Black folks and other people of color in their 20s-40s living with loss and I ALWAYS reference The Wild Edge of Sorrow as my grief bible. Francis is the goat! Looking forward to this!

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Bravo for your work!

kamil's avatar

thank you Sarah and thank you for yours!

Elisabeth Goodman Spain's avatar

Thanks so much for doing this interview Sarah. So precious to witness Francis speaking. I read and loved his subsequent book "In the absence of the ordinary." and would really recommend it.

These concepts of grief as a form of protest against the conditioning of suppressing our feelings; of being a resource for "loving this world into life again"; are all converging with the studying I am doing at the moment:

- Non-Violent (or Compassionate) Communication with https://www.connecting2life.net which is giving me precious space to connect with feelings and needs, and share that with others

- On Purpose course with Lydia Violet at https://schoolforthegreatturning.com which is giving me more perspectives for how to feel and live in this time.

Also I just watched a tremendously enlightening talk by Adrian Lambert on Neurodivergence and Collapse Awareness

https://substack.com/@adrianlambert/note/c-267014469?r=1tsewh&utm_source=notes-share-action&utm_medium=web

which triggered feelings of grief and relief in me, particularly when he talked about our experience of "living within systems that no longer make sense" and "the gap between what is visible to you and discussable with others becomes part of daily life"

I feel so grateful for what you've created Sarah that enables us to bridge that gap between what is visible to us and what is discussable with others. And that I do indeed have access to online and in real life communities to do this.

And I'm wondering, even if some of my local communities don't enable me to bridge that gap, I can take from them the opportunity to talk about and emotionally share other things that we care about and have that sense of belonging that you and Francis talk about.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Elisabeth, more and more I've come to think (particularly after being on tour) that so many of us in this community are on a certain end of the "spectrum". And that our sharing and communicating is starting to get a bit of traction. The gap is narrowing. x

Aurelia N's avatar

Just returned from Narara eco village, immersed in John Seeds Deep Ecology rituals. I cried, sobbed, listened & gently danced on tip toes through the cosmic walk. Connecting and connected, it’s always hard returning to reality but thanks Sarah and Francis for the gentle, honest and real conversation xxxooo I shall share with Rising Tide comrades, Permie friends, family and friends. I love rituals & all beings. From my heart thank you

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Ah, well you'll like my guest interview next week, then!!

Sarah Wilson's avatar

On my podcast

Aurelia N's avatar

Lovely to meet you in Newcastle at your book launch. I eat the stars is being devoured by friends & family. The conversation & all your hard work is reaching the peoples. Thank you

Steve C's avatar

My theory is that in the west we developed technologies to escape the pain of the body in the first 2000 years of our civilisation. Hence the rise of monks and priests denying the body and escaping into the void

Once we escaped the pain of the body , we diseased the mind

And now need to return to the body and the earth. To come back in , more integrated

dex black's avatar

People in the climate movement in the green's political movement and other such organisations have been going through the grief process for decades. grieving, for the loss that is to come, we're already many of us past that, and they're now focused very focused on what comes next. Glad you could join the party.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

Thanks Dex, you might not realise that I've been a climate activist supporting green politics for 20 years. My understanding of this subject comes from this.

dex black's avatar

The grief is real. It's source "future climate catastrophe" has been playing out for a long time.

I seek to frame this as ongoing.

The reality of the failures will hit hard but they're long expected.

Does that change the quality of the engrossing response?

I think that is an assumption I am making, from the place of that ongoing (anticipatory) grief.

What does it mean for me/us all of that's a false (hope? belief? wish? )

?

Sarah Wilson's avatar

totally get it. it's why I wrote my latest book...

dex black's avatar

and thank you for taking the time to respond and causing me to reflect. I appreciate your patience with this flawed (and yes, grieving)human.

dex black's avatar

You're right I was not aware of your long involvement. I've been at this a long time also and I guess I'm probably running out of steam a bit.

Sarah Wilson's avatar

so many of us have. x