This was such a generous and rich conversation. I’m loving where your new book is going Elle and am definitely off to investigate Mondragon and Unimed too!
Your reflections on serialising and substack as a medium were also so valuable. Elle, I hadn’t ever thought about separating the “funding” of the book and getting it read. It makes perfect sense that they need different strategies.
It’s also just refreshing to hear you both talk about generosity and collaboration and the power of it.
Such an interesting chat! I think I'll be doing some deep dives into Mondragon and Unimed. Loved Elle's perspective on serialising a book....getting your work out in front of a larger audience and having the ability, as a reader, to share chapters.
I do love print books and one of my favourite books is so well read and worn that most of the pages are yellowed and now falling out....make it even more special.
And I love Seth Godin's quote "real artists give first"! And you are so right Sarah, people want to support care.
I remember buying two cookbooks about 15 years ago by an author who had shared all of those recipes on her blog first - for free. Not only did I want all the recipes in one easy place but I wanted to support her for sharing so generously. And I will do the same with your book Sarah. You took us along this journey with you and I will treasure having the hard copy of something I was a part of and something I want to re read.
I agree - can't wait for the hard cover copy , and I always love the reveal of Sarah's covers. Actual books are the versions of writings that become companions, that hold memories with little notes added each read - can see my changes of mind...
I echo your sentiments Karola (as always!) and Viv. I bought the hard copy of “First Make the Beast Beautiful” after listening to the audiobook because I love the cover so much!
I haven’t come across Elle yet but thank you for introducing her to us Sarah! I really enjoyed the entire conversation. I am currently writing my PhD thesis by publication and I can tell you that getting academic papers published is equally challenging. It takes many months, rejections and edits before your manuscript is accepted by a journal, then you have to pay thousands of dollars if you choose to publish Open Access. I don’t write on Substack but I really love how you described using it to post short pieces that your audience can then share in order to get your message out, which then generates other opportunities, like speaking gigs, etc. I have been avoiding using social media for this purpose because of the advertising and algorithms, but I think Substack could be a wholesome alternative.
Elle, I also love the idea of the health care system owned and run by the health care staff! I am a GP, medical educator and researcher working in a system that is becoming more and more corporate and less concerned about the employees and patients we care for. The Brazilian project sounds very inspiring and can’t wait to read your work about it.
Thx, Sar for introducing us to Elle. I will start following her. It’s surprised me novel serialisation hasn’t taken off yet, but I guess the instant economy we now live in also applies to novels so readers aren’t willing to wake a week for another instalment.
Be safe these next few months as you travel. Praying for you my friend knowing angels watch over you.
The interesting thing is that serial novels have REALLY taken off in China. Most novels are read serially through serial reading apps there, and the popular ones are turned into television miniseries. I can't read the novels (because they are in Chinese) but I love watching the serials and I'm jealous our ebook industry is still locked away in "kindle."
Thx, Elle, for your kindness in replying. Do you know what app do the ‘fan fiction’ sites mostly use for creating their stories? I imagine some of these stories are ‘serialised’ in some way.
yeah, I reckon you'll enjoy seeing how Elle did novel serialisation....I recall she has to have a bunch of devices to bring in the audience as she goes.
Well, those stats were a little disheartening - especially having just released a book myself!
I love how you both have created your own pathways to publishing. Maybe I’m showing my age (at only 45!) because I went the old-school route: poured my heart into a physical book, hit “publish” and hoped for the best. Now I find myself wondering if that was brave or naive.
I self-published after being turned down - not because the writing wasn’t strong, but because I didn’t have “enough followers.”
And I think that’s really the heart of it: publishing, like so many industries, is a colonised system designed to serve capitalism. And if, as you said, that system is upheld by celebrity memoir, then maybe our attention shouldn’t only be on those offering the contracts - but also on those signing them.
Because that’s what sustains the inequity.
If visibility were shared, there would be enough readers to go around. Enough room for lesser-known, diverse, and self-published voices to be heard.
I just wrote a piece reflecting on all of this - after hearing Glennon Doyle and Suleika Jaouad talk about how hard the book tours and media interviews can be. And I believe them. But they still said yes to the publishing deal. And in doing so, they’re also saying yes to the system.
A refreshingly radical, ethical and forward looking conversation. I don’t agree with everything ( thinking about AI is still constrained by anthropomorphic bias) but there used to be much here to inspire.
This was like a five course gourmet meal. In South Africa, the inequality is overwhelming and I get so frustrated that the same flawed approach is taken. People here are so convinced the government that liberated them from Apartheid will take care of them while they just line the pockets of themselves and their cronies as they are busy hollowing out the little infrastructure and economy that exists.
Land is always at the forefront of the debate.
So encouraging to hear of your Substack serialisation success and loved the funding of the book as research and collaboration approach.
We certainly need people to think differently and offer alternatives.
Even as a best-selling author in South Africa with over 6000 hard copies sold( hardly huge numbers) the money earned from a traditionally published book is just not significant.
Made more money speaking but it's not an academic book so that eventually dries up too.
Personally, I don't want to be speaker, I want to be a writer. So I was never happy with that avenue for my book career which is why I've looked into alternative publishing methods that generate more revenue than a la carte book sales.
As for South Africa, I think we can all relate to that idea that the government is going to save us. I'm curious if there are any cooperative or employee owned companies there that are taking matters of inequality into their own hands? If so, let me know about the case studies, I'd love to research and write about them!
Hey Sarah and Elle, this was awesome, I am just setting up my Substack and cant wait to get started. I quickly want to touch on the AI side and share an idea I got, (which can be nurtured of course),
Briefly:
A writer launches a book, (on a new platform)
At the end of each chapter the reader can engage with the chapter, (reflect a memory or story that resonates, argue a point, ask a question, write their own version)
Of course there is an AI Integration - The LLM is programmed to ask questions, not make it all pretty on top, so the reader thinks)
After each chapter the AI accumulates the knowledge and context of the readers engagement
The reader finishes the book - returns to its own page, where the readers IP & Knowledge sits, "Private"
The reader now can use that information and with some basic guidance and further exploration write their own story/Book/Poem
The reader then can publish their work on the platform and which ever other integrations there are.
"There can be perhaps a core element captured by AI to capture the main IP, which could be protected, so that regeneration to a point is curbed and core IP is protected, (which also could have a value attached to it"
I believe so :) I saved it, I want to now bring the design to Substack and go through the steps of building it, "a product that will be able to show the concept" and then see if we can get funding for it
I just came across this,it is not quite my field.i am so pleased to find this intelligent wide ranging discussion on what else is possible I will be filling you both.Many thanks
There definitely are co-operatives and there is worker owned businesses. There is a cultural and informal financing and saving system called a stokvel. It's now both informal/ unregulated and formal/regulated. Agriculture definitely has co-op models and some bakery/coffee shops etc. Its not my area of expertise at all but you'd definitely find a mix of formal and informal examples.
Had never heard to Mondragon, and my quick initial look at it is exciting. It's this kind of humaning, people living the alternative with intelligence and creativity, that keeps me from utter despair right now
Thanks so much Sarah and Elle.
This was such a generous and rich conversation. I’m loving where your new book is going Elle and am definitely off to investigate Mondragon and Unimed too!
Your reflections on serialising and substack as a medium were also so valuable. Elle, I hadn’t ever thought about separating the “funding” of the book and getting it read. It makes perfect sense that they need different strategies.
It’s also just refreshing to hear you both talk about generosity and collaboration and the power of it.
Thanks Sarah, glad you are liking the book! And our alternative way of publishing it! 🥰
I thought of you as Elle and I spoke!
So relevant to our conversation the other day right!
Such an interesting chat! I think I'll be doing some deep dives into Mondragon and Unimed. Loved Elle's perspective on serialising a book....getting your work out in front of a larger audience and having the ability, as a reader, to share chapters.
I do love print books and one of my favourite books is so well read and worn that most of the pages are yellowed and now falling out....make it even more special.
And I love Seth Godin's quote "real artists give first"! And you are so right Sarah, people want to support care.
I remember buying two cookbooks about 15 years ago by an author who had shared all of those recipes on her blog first - for free. Not only did I want all the recipes in one easy place but I wanted to support her for sharing so generously. And I will do the same with your book Sarah. You took us along this journey with you and I will treasure having the hard copy of something I was a part of and something I want to re read.
This chat was so inspiring, thank you!
Thank you Special K!
I agree - can't wait for the hard cover copy , and I always love the reveal of Sarah's covers. Actual books are the versions of writings that become companions, that hold memories with little notes added each read - can see my changes of mind...
ah yes...I actually have to develop the cover concept in the next few weeks!
I echo your sentiments Karola (as always!) and Viv. I bought the hard copy of “First Make the Beast Beautiful” after listening to the audiobook because I love the cover so much!
I haven’t come across Elle yet but thank you for introducing her to us Sarah! I really enjoyed the entire conversation. I am currently writing my PhD thesis by publication and I can tell you that getting academic papers published is equally challenging. It takes many months, rejections and edits before your manuscript is accepted by a journal, then you have to pay thousands of dollars if you choose to publish Open Access. I don’t write on Substack but I really love how you described using it to post short pieces that your audience can then share in order to get your message out, which then generates other opportunities, like speaking gigs, etc. I have been avoiding using social media for this purpose because of the advertising and algorithms, but I think Substack could be a wholesome alternative.
Elle, I also love the idea of the health care system owned and run by the health care staff! I am a GP, medical educator and researcher working in a system that is becoming more and more corporate and less concerned about the employees and patients we care for. The Brazilian project sounds very inspiring and can’t wait to read your work about it.
I totally trust it will be beautiful and can't wait to see it
Thx, Sar for introducing us to Elle. I will start following her. It’s surprised me novel serialisation hasn’t taken off yet, but I guess the instant economy we now live in also applies to novels so readers aren’t willing to wake a week for another instalment.
Be safe these next few months as you travel. Praying for you my friend knowing angels watch over you.
Big love xx
The interesting thing is that serial novels have REALLY taken off in China. Most novels are read serially through serial reading apps there, and the popular ones are turned into television miniseries. I can't read the novels (because they are in Chinese) but I love watching the serials and I'm jealous our ebook industry is still locked away in "kindle."
Wattpad is the closest thing in the US, and it's popular for teens. So there's still hope!
Thx, Elle, for your kindness in replying. Do you know what app do the ‘fan fiction’ sites mostly use for creating their stories? I imagine some of these stories are ‘serialised’ in some way.
Yes!!! Fanfiction is often serialized by default! AOC is probably the most popular: https://archiveofourown.org/
So interesting.
yeah, I reckon you'll enjoy seeing how Elle did novel serialisation....I recall she has to have a bunch of devices to bring in the audience as she goes.
Thanks Ian for your prayers...as always. xx
Well, those stats were a little disheartening - especially having just released a book myself!
I love how you both have created your own pathways to publishing. Maybe I’m showing my age (at only 45!) because I went the old-school route: poured my heart into a physical book, hit “publish” and hoped for the best. Now I find myself wondering if that was brave or naive.
I self-published after being turned down - not because the writing wasn’t strong, but because I didn’t have “enough followers.”
And I think that’s really the heart of it: publishing, like so many industries, is a colonised system designed to serve capitalism. And if, as you said, that system is upheld by celebrity memoir, then maybe our attention shouldn’t only be on those offering the contracts - but also on those signing them.
Because that’s what sustains the inequity.
If visibility were shared, there would be enough readers to go around. Enough room for lesser-known, diverse, and self-published voices to be heard.
I just wrote a piece reflecting on all of this - after hearing Glennon Doyle and Suleika Jaouad talk about how hard the book tours and media interviews can be. And I believe them. But they still said yes to the publishing deal. And in doing so, they’re also saying yes to the system.
I’d love to hear your thoughts, especially on the idea that real collaboration might sometimes mean stepping aside, or consciously using your platform to amplify someone else’s voice. Link is here - https://laracharles.substack.com/p/glennon-you-said-i-wish-there-was
I will take a read
A refreshingly radical, ethical and forward looking conversation. I don’t agree with everything ( thinking about AI is still constrained by anthropomorphic bias) but there used to be much here to inspire.
Thanks Steve
You are very welcome Sarah. You made a good team .
‘There is much here to inspire’ No
Idea how ‘ used to
Be’ slipped in there.
Thank you Sarah and Elle! Just the conversation I needed to hear. A lot of ideas there that I’m keen to come back to. 🙏
This was like a five course gourmet meal. In South Africa, the inequality is overwhelming and I get so frustrated that the same flawed approach is taken. People here are so convinced the government that liberated them from Apartheid will take care of them while they just line the pockets of themselves and their cronies as they are busy hollowing out the little infrastructure and economy that exists.
Land is always at the forefront of the debate.
So encouraging to hear of your Substack serialisation success and loved the funding of the book as research and collaboration approach.
We certainly need people to think differently and offer alternatives.
Even as a best-selling author in South Africa with over 6000 hard copies sold( hardly huge numbers) the money earned from a traditionally published book is just not significant.
Made more money speaking but it's not an academic book so that eventually dries up too.
Thanks Terry.
Yes, in smaller countries, the situation is even worse. I have friends who sold only a few hundred books in Australia.
Personally, I don't want to be speaker, I want to be a writer. So I was never happy with that avenue for my book career which is why I've looked into alternative publishing methods that generate more revenue than a la carte book sales.
As for South Africa, I think we can all relate to that idea that the government is going to save us. I'm curious if there are any cooperative or employee owned companies there that are taking matters of inequality into their own hands? If so, let me know about the case studies, I'd love to research and write about them!
Hey Sarah and Elle, this was awesome, I am just setting up my Substack and cant wait to get started. I quickly want to touch on the AI side and share an idea I got, (which can be nurtured of course),
Briefly:
A writer launches a book, (on a new platform)
At the end of each chapter the reader can engage with the chapter, (reflect a memory or story that resonates, argue a point, ask a question, write their own version)
Of course there is an AI Integration - The LLM is programmed to ask questions, not make it all pretty on top, so the reader thinks)
After each chapter the AI accumulates the knowledge and context of the readers engagement
The reader finishes the book - returns to its own page, where the readers IP & Knowledge sits, "Private"
The reader now can use that information and with some basic guidance and further exploration write their own story/Book/Poem
The reader then can publish their work on the platform and which ever other integrations there are.
"There can be perhaps a core element captured by AI to capture the main IP, which could be protected, so that regeneration to a point is curbed and core IP is protected, (which also could have a value attached to it"
I'm Morne, I'll set my page up this week and post
But I am on https://www.linkedin.com/in/morne-olivier-sustainability/ if you want to chat
Loved your conversation
M
That's quite the idea...
I believe so :) I saved it, I want to now bring the design to Substack and go through the steps of building it, "a product that will be able to show the concept" and then see if we can get funding for it
I just came across this,it is not quite my field.i am so pleased to find this intelligent wide ranging discussion on what else is possible I will be filling you both.Many thanks
Welcome Maureen!
Thanks beautiful humans you are inspiring. “Yes this is happening but, what’s the solution?”
Super interesting indeed.
There definitely are co-operatives and there is worker owned businesses. There is a cultural and informal financing and saving system called a stokvel. It's now both informal/ unregulated and formal/regulated. Agriculture definitely has co-op models and some bakery/coffee shops etc. Its not my area of expertise at all but you'd definitely find a mix of formal and informal examples.
Had never heard to Mondragon, and my quick initial look at it is exciting. It's this kind of humaning, people living the alternative with intelligence and creativity, that keeps me from utter despair right now
I just love that it's worked for decades...so many of these noble ideas collapse under the surrounding weight of capitalism.
It is so so amazing.
I had never heard of Mondragon either and also find it amazing and exciting at what they have created.
It really is beautiful. If you find my post about Mondragon interesting, you might be interested in my follow up about the priest that inspired it and his ideas about capitalism: https://www.elysian.press/p/the-cooperatist-manifesto-of-mondragon
Oh yes thank you!!
Thanks to both of you, enjoyed spending time with you today!
Was nice to have you!