She’s a Blue Minder 🤣🤣. That’s what is keeping her sane through all this. Such a great conversation. I only just came across Grace Blakeleys work in the past year and am a big fan. Great to see people with root Left beliefs!
Really enjoyed the discussion with Grace, so good to hear such a courageous and well informed younger person. I recognise these interviews very time bounded, a fundamental issue not discussed here that has shaped our neoliberal capitalism is the deregulation of our financial systems. This a a fundamental driver shaping the progressive impetus towards increasing inequality and the limits on the potential of government.
Deregulation has meant capital will flow globally where there is the most profit, with the caveat of security of activity /money. These means capital flows to places of low taxation, limited environmental regulation and limitations on labour’s capacity to negotiate increased wages. Also capital (or capitalists) are requiring that governments support infrastructure costs for industry to locate in a particular country eg upgrade of roads, port access, maybe even giving developed land. It is not so much that politicians are corrupt in partnering with business but rather the deregulated financial system means governments in every country are competing with each other to try and attract and keep business that due to deregulation of financial systems mean industry can up and leave a country if a country is not ‘friendly’ to business.
Rather than corruption, although this does happen, it is the financial deregulation that forces the political system to favour the capitalists for fear of capital/industry migrating out of their country.
This overall impetus means government tax revenues declining as they keep and lower taxation for capital but also more government revenue is spent on infrastructure to attract capital-hence progressively less government money for everything else!
Hi Tony, thanks for your comment. It would have been great to chat about this as I wrote my first book on the rise of finance, it’s called Stolen: How to save the world from financialisation, and it contains a lot of thoughts on the insights you shared here
A question for Grace, I have been pondering the concept of planned mutual destruction. In order to create the reset which is needed when shit gets weird or out of balance.
For example the housing bubble in Oz. The only solution is a major meltdown come next recession or war.
Or we could go thirds in the pain. Remove capital gains discounts on property, negative gearing, a limit on the number of properties an individual or corporation can own etc.
A planned destruction where the banks take a third of the hit, the government a third and the community a third.
We either burn it together in a planned fashion. Or watch it explode in our faces
Is this possible practically , politically and socially it’s a massive long shot. But would it work economically?
It’s a very good question, and to be honest that seems a lot fairer than the solution we had in the UK, which was basically the banks take none of the pain, the government takes it all, and then passes it onto the people in the form of austerity. I’m just not sure whether it’ll happen in that way, as the banks are so well organized they’re able to get the government to do what they want. We need to get more organized if we want to be able to influence government policy in our interests.
I don’t know if it has ever been done in history before. The usual method is a total reset either by a dictator rising up and mobilising the rage.
Or second tier merchants, politicians and “should have beens” seizing the opportunity to get “theirs”.
I am waiting for a politician to stand up and be a projection of and project the reality of our current situation. Which we are all responsible for creating
To take responsibility, and to lead the rest of society through the shame, despair, resolution and repair.
We all got greedy, and we all gaslit ourselves and allowed ourselves to be gaslit. With bullshit NeoLiberal and Woke / Do good ideologies.
Both right and left leaning attitudes and intentions are correct, in the right historical, cultural, and evolutionary context.
We allowed both realities to be corrupted and co-opted by broken people and a broken system.
Has there ever been a society on earth which we can model / replicate or learn from, which balances these two polarities?
The Swedes had a go , but feel prey to their religious, righteous tendencies. And got drunk on the good times that their progressive government leaders and society created.
Feel sorry for the UK , Mr Starmer appears to be a rabbit in the headlights of the shit show truck coming his way.
And yes , it will require massive mobilisation of the public in order to force change.
We have an opportunity to engage and instate true leaders. Those who do not want the power, but are capable of wielding it for the benefit of everyone.
This was a great explanation of where we are at. Love your work Grace. I’m going to subscribe to your newsletter.
Re cost of living crisis in Australia - a workmate said she was experiencing it b/c she couldn’t afford to take her kids to Disneyland.
Some of us won’t know what it is that hits us, until it does. I gently told her that once things start falling apart, it can happen very quickly, so prepare! And no you don’t need to go to Disneyland.
Thanks so much Susan! And to be honest, that’s a sign that the bubble is going to burst - when the middle class can no longer spend loads of money on nice holidays. Will be interesting to see how oz fares in the economic chaos of the trade war!
I've been thinking about this perspective of "hardship" as well, Susan, and how some people need us to "gently say things", Sarah otherwise they can't/ won't hear what we are saying.
There's so much diversity in 8 billion (or Australia's 28 million) people's understanding and perspective and learned experience, that it's sometimes a struggle to know what type of language and how deep the conversation can go with different people. That's something I've always struggled with - how to know which audience I have with me so I know what to say and how to say it.
I've also seen over the years that people shift their definition of hardship depending on how front of mind it is in their lives. That doesn't mean they can't ever adapt and adjust their expectations of their lifestyle. It means that they can't easily take on / accept / do these big shifts that we need in our systems and society, if they currently define "hardship" as not going on holidays like everyone else does (for example).
There is going to be big pushback from many people for a long time.
For me, what I can do (like what you, Sarah and your guests speakers do), is to still say it out loud, use the gentle words mixed in with the harder stories, live the changes we are going though and be an example, build community and processes and resources that can help people make these big changes when they step up to it. In this messy way, it gets us and others ready so that when more and more people want to make the necessary change in their world, then it shifts faster and faster as more people come on board.
I suppose that's what we are all doing, isn't it? Building the scaffolding needed to shift more of us to a new way, as everything gets more and more shittafied (is that a word? Haha. Enshittafied 😜)
A bit off topic here, but I read this article about The Odyssey today and it chimed with the question you’ve been asking the guests on your podcast “What is left when everything else is gone?”. Thought you might find it interesting!
Love this format Sarah. Thank you to you both for such a great dive into the questions that are taking up space in our minds. Excellent insights on the appeal of the right, right now.
Thanks Sarah and Grace, the clearest explanation I’ve heard for the appeal and power of the right, thank you.
Thanks GnLB
She’s a Blue Minder 🤣🤣. That’s what is keeping her sane through all this. Such a great conversation. I only just came across Grace Blakeleys work in the past year and am a big fan. Great to see people with root Left beliefs!
She is!
Really enjoyed the discussion with Grace, so good to hear such a courageous and well informed younger person. I recognise these interviews very time bounded, a fundamental issue not discussed here that has shaped our neoliberal capitalism is the deregulation of our financial systems. This a a fundamental driver shaping the progressive impetus towards increasing inequality and the limits on the potential of government.
Deregulation has meant capital will flow globally where there is the most profit, with the caveat of security of activity /money. These means capital flows to places of low taxation, limited environmental regulation and limitations on labour’s capacity to negotiate increased wages. Also capital (or capitalists) are requiring that governments support infrastructure costs for industry to locate in a particular country eg upgrade of roads, port access, maybe even giving developed land. It is not so much that politicians are corrupt in partnering with business but rather the deregulated financial system means governments in every country are competing with each other to try and attract and keep business that due to deregulation of financial systems mean industry can up and leave a country if a country is not ‘friendly’ to business.
Rather than corruption, although this does happen, it is the financial deregulation that forces the political system to favour the capitalists for fear of capital/industry migrating out of their country.
This overall impetus means government tax revenues declining as they keep and lower taxation for capital but also more government revenue is spent on infrastructure to attract capital-hence progressively less government money for everything else!
Hi Tony, thanks for your comment. It would have been great to chat about this as I wrote my first book on the rise of finance, it’s called Stolen: How to save the world from financialisation, and it contains a lot of thoughts on the insights you shared here
A question for Grace, I have been pondering the concept of planned mutual destruction. In order to create the reset which is needed when shit gets weird or out of balance.
For example the housing bubble in Oz. The only solution is a major meltdown come next recession or war.
Or we could go thirds in the pain. Remove capital gains discounts on property, negative gearing, a limit on the number of properties an individual or corporation can own etc.
A planned destruction where the banks take a third of the hit, the government a third and the community a third.
We either burn it together in a planned fashion. Or watch it explode in our faces
Is this possible practically , politically and socially it’s a massive long shot. But would it work economically?
It’s a very good question, and to be honest that seems a lot fairer than the solution we had in the UK, which was basically the banks take none of the pain, the government takes it all, and then passes it onto the people in the form of austerity. I’m just not sure whether it’ll happen in that way, as the banks are so well organized they’re able to get the government to do what they want. We need to get more organized if we want to be able to influence government policy in our interests.
I don’t know if it has ever been done in history before. The usual method is a total reset either by a dictator rising up and mobilising the rage.
Or second tier merchants, politicians and “should have beens” seizing the opportunity to get “theirs”.
I am waiting for a politician to stand up and be a projection of and project the reality of our current situation. Which we are all responsible for creating
To take responsibility, and to lead the rest of society through the shame, despair, resolution and repair.
We all got greedy, and we all gaslit ourselves and allowed ourselves to be gaslit. With bullshit NeoLiberal and Woke / Do good ideologies.
Both right and left leaning attitudes and intentions are correct, in the right historical, cultural, and evolutionary context.
We allowed both realities to be corrupted and co-opted by broken people and a broken system.
Has there ever been a society on earth which we can model / replicate or learn from, which balances these two polarities?
The Swedes had a go , but feel prey to their religious, righteous tendencies. And got drunk on the good times that their progressive government leaders and society created.
Feel sorry for the UK , Mr Starmer appears to be a rabbit in the headlights of the shit show truck coming his way.
And yes , it will require massive mobilisation of the public in order to force change.
We have an opportunity to engage and instate true leaders. Those who do not want the power, but are capable of wielding it for the benefit of everyone.
Love this question...
This was a great explanation of where we are at. Love your work Grace. I’m going to subscribe to your newsletter.
Re cost of living crisis in Australia - a workmate said she was experiencing it b/c she couldn’t afford to take her kids to Disneyland.
Some of us won’t know what it is that hits us, until it does. I gently told her that once things start falling apart, it can happen very quickly, so prepare! And no you don’t need to go to Disneyland.
Thanks so much Susan! And to be honest, that’s a sign that the bubble is going to burst - when the middle class can no longer spend loads of money on nice holidays. Will be interesting to see how oz fares in the economic chaos of the trade war!
ah, gently saying things....!
I've been thinking about this perspective of "hardship" as well, Susan, and how some people need us to "gently say things", Sarah otherwise they can't/ won't hear what we are saying.
There's so much diversity in 8 billion (or Australia's 28 million) people's understanding and perspective and learned experience, that it's sometimes a struggle to know what type of language and how deep the conversation can go with different people. That's something I've always struggled with - how to know which audience I have with me so I know what to say and how to say it.
I've also seen over the years that people shift their definition of hardship depending on how front of mind it is in their lives. That doesn't mean they can't ever adapt and adjust their expectations of their lifestyle. It means that they can't easily take on / accept / do these big shifts that we need in our systems and society, if they currently define "hardship" as not going on holidays like everyone else does (for example).
There is going to be big pushback from many people for a long time.
For me, what I can do (like what you, Sarah and your guests speakers do), is to still say it out loud, use the gentle words mixed in with the harder stories, live the changes we are going though and be an example, build community and processes and resources that can help people make these big changes when they step up to it. In this messy way, it gets us and others ready so that when more and more people want to make the necessary change in their world, then it shifts faster and faster as more people come on board.
I suppose that's what we are all doing, isn't it? Building the scaffolding needed to shift more of us to a new way, as everything gets more and more shittafied (is that a word? Haha. Enshittafied 😜)
A bit off topic here, but I read this article about The Odyssey today and it chimed with the question you’ve been asking the guests on your podcast “What is left when everything else is gone?”. Thought you might find it interesting!
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/apr/12/epic-win-why-the-odyssey-is-having-a-moment
Oh John thank you so much! That's great to have as a connection
Have you spoken to Jared Yates Sexton? He’s be great for you to interview.
https://open.substack.com/pub/jaredyatessexton
Yes I follow his work. thanks for the reminder
Love this format Sarah. Thank you to you both for such a great dive into the questions that are taking up space in our minds. Excellent insights on the appeal of the right, right now.