What a powerful read!! Thank you for being able to put into words how many of us are feeling but unsure how to talk about. You’ve hit the nail on the head with so many of your points. I’m a woman in my 40s in a heterosexual marriage to a great guy but boy do I feel seen by the term “man keeping”!! I’ve been the one who has held our marriage together in times of crisis. And as a mother of three children it can often feel like I have four children!
I have two sons who I hope I am raising as ‘SNAGs’. As a very sensitive empath myself I’m raising them to be good PEOPLE. To be kind, respectful, generous hearted, curious, all-feeling individuals.
I lost my brother to suicide 10 years ago… the world was too hard for him… as a mother I dearly want to do my best to raise boys who can navigate this world in a healthy and loving way.
I may not be articulating myself well. It’s early and I’m procrastinating from the school lunches. But this conversation is so incredibly important and I’m so grateful for you sharing. 🙏🫶
Something you write her strikes me as salient, Ange - re your brother's tragic death - "the world was too hard for him". So much in this. The world is certainly changing and becoming less "easy" to navigate for men. But the real difficulty - what makes it "TOO" hard - is that they are not equipped to - and don't want to - adjust and rise to the hard things. I think part of the frustration you, others and I are expressing here is that men are somehow thinking that they should not HAVE to do hard things, that their privilege should extend ad infinitum.
I think the problem is we are all doing to many hard things. We are caught in a millenia long religious/capitalist/toxic patriarchal or matriarchal business/family and societal structure. It is unravelling while also doubling down on itself, and we are exhausted and acting like children, and not doing the right things. In fact we don't even have a fucking clue what the right things are. But as mentioned below, start with don't be a dick. If you feel glee at inflicting harm on another human being via, words, or actions. Then you are being a dick, full stop, easy peasy.
If you say please can we talk, please stop doing what you are doing it is hurting me because of a,b, or c, or please just leave my presence or life. Then you are not being a dick. Simples
Keep going 👌🏼 well written , and feel free to express that you are a little overwhelmed and would like some help with a,b and c. Men are either on or off, and do not always see the whole picture. Respect his overwhelm , but also respect your need for some assistance to make the team strong
Lots of defensiveness , and definitely a lot of denial too. I can remember when I did not even feel my own body, hunger or thirst. Just keep moving, keep trying. Don’t stop , in a panic as it felt like it was all on me. I can understand how a mother feels with the dude on the couch or stuck in the betting app, or still at work trying to prove himself or avoiding home. Jeeebz 🤦🏻♂️ but we are talking about it. So it is good.
So good to be back and chewing the fat - which is possibly gristle now!
Well said Steve. Your comment that" Men are either on or off" has really got me thinking. Is that nature or nuture? Is having to ask for help with a,b or c, more spoon feeding and manplanning or or is it direction that will lead to enlightenment? Hmmm?
I think we are all really fucking tired , and I was going to say Sarah, I am glad that you are sitting comfortably in the I don’t have a solution space.
I had an insight today , re the feminism has been shifting things for 100 years now. Shit takes time, and things need to pendulum swing back into balance. Just look at women’s bodies these days. And men’s , our bodies are a direct reflection of our inner emotional and spiritual state.
I have never seen women looking as strong as they do these days.
Muscular but also still feminine, or
at the other end of the spectrum
obscenely grotesque due to a manufactured body. They are learning how to feel powerful and good in their bodies , or collapsing into self doubt.
While men are getting more slight and having to deal with not being as powerful anymore. Or they go RFK Jr or Joe Rogan and juice up and become a demented beast. Once again , collapsing into their self doubt.
It is a process , and all change is uncomfortable and for vast periods of time there is no clear answer, just the path.
those dual trends are fascinating...Yes, the overall trajectory is women getting more warrior-like, with a kind of recalcitrant "last days of Rome" compensatory reaction at the edges (the botox, fake nails, trad vibe), and men somewhat giving up (and then there's the corresponding over reaction at the edges, too).
The men in positions of power around the world right now make me question the social progress I have seen in my lifetime.
Many would argue that they are products of deep trauma. You could also argue they are products f seeing their inherited, patriarchal system crumble in front of them.
While I like Sarah's initial question, the responses to it are complex and the backdrop of increasingly powerful tech and a collapsing system make the depth of those challenges more difficult to navigate?
This point really struck me. Is it nature or nurture. I am raising one of each gender and I often wonder this. I see inherent differences and it cannot all be down to socialisation. But how do we teach and help men to overcome the on/off or is that a pipe dream? How do I as a woman work with the on/off without feeling that is just more mental work for me? Cause I have to say right now I’m taking a leaf from my Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids and disengaging. I have watched men around me focus on them selves and unintentionally a lot of the time put themselves first. Example when I as a woman come down in the morning I’m doing 15 jobs straight off the bat. My husband goes to the coffee machine and makes himself breakfast and a coffee and eats it. No thought to other stuff. I agree it is not because he is a bad person he is just not “on” and looking at contributing. I hear many women say well then the things don’t get done and yes that is true. But if I choose to do them instead of prioritising my own needs first is that just more learned behaviour. If I want them done because my neurospicy brain needs order to function is that then my choice. I have stepped away from resentment against men these days. I do fee disappointment for them, for many of us because our systems are not set up for when women take this inevitable step back and away. I find however I am in myself happier if I choose to own both my own decisions to do things and my own choices around what I no longer do for others, including the man in my life.
I think it is definitely a part of our nature. Something that I have seen in myself and also observed in men. Particularly a pack of men or team.
If you reduce it back to something basic like evolutionary biology it kind of makes sense. But you always find what you want to find when looking backwards.
What I mean is guys have a tendency to get into a project, and then goes hard at it until collapse. Focus on the hunt, go hard until the prey is caught. Or the house is built etc etc. Women do this also, but I think men have a little more tunnel vision in this.
And especially how men get into trouble for lying around (which they do, I 100% agree that they / I take the piss)😅
So what happens is men sneak around to find their rest or get all righteous and demand it. And get extra upset that there rest is not allowed and their work / contribution is not acknowledged.
Exactly like we do to women, who are also trying to show that they care and are contributing, but in the rush of life, and expectations and our own sense of lack get missed and not valued
I want to suggest a discussion on the dividing up of responsibility or rather a conversation which highlights each partners strengths.
Where the team has already agreed to differ to the other regarding certain things and certain tasks.
Men like direction and they like getting the job done and resting. It is not babying , babying is when they are micro managed or their fatigue is minimised or dismissed.
Saying this , women need to ask for and also give themselves rest. Brene Browns family has a barometer that they use. They ask each other where is your level of pressure? So each person takes responsibility for their own state of being. But also for acknowledging it and communicating it to their loved ones. This puts the team on the same page and allows for good solutions to arise.
Rather than everyone just going going going , look at me, I love you, and you don’t see how hard I am trying , you fuckers 😅😝🤦🏻♂️
I Agree Steve C - men are great when they are required to rise to an emergency. Problem is... the world doesn't do emergencies like it used to. They are slow - not instant. They require vigilant maintenance and forethought. So men need to adjust their settings. Fast.
Re women...yep, women are certainly responsible for not putting up boundaries around their need to rest...I think the slow-burn emergency mode means they don't feel they can....not while the men are snoozing on the couch!
The honest discussions re capacity and current state of mind and feeling of connection are good. Men don’t feel like they can stop because it will mean they need to feel , and they lost their sense of self and purpose.
Women a little the same I can imagine. The funny thing is, both will thrive from the honest conversations. Because both will feel seen and heard and activated in the way most natural for either gender or relational polarity
That is one of the good things with guys getting into meditation (as long as they don’t escape into it). Things are (haven’t they always been though?) going to be uncomfortable for the foreseeable future. So yep, guys need to get with the program.
Need a network of men like those French guys to start the podcast seat jumping and get discussions going. The Booktok ex footy gent the other day was on the ABC discussing how he pissed his football money against the wall or dumped it into betting apps. Even went as far to say that the NRL is a very toxic place for men to be in. At least for him. Men feel it, they just need a guy or other men to show them the way out and a new way to operate.
He is one of the best guides out there today I think. A great balance of emotional intelligence anchored in the body. And developing young men how can stand up to out of control men and deliver real consequences in a safe manner. Either verbally or physically
I totally get this. I have been married for 37 years and do not believe I've always 'pulled my weight' in the division of labour. I'm often referred to as the 3rd child and we even joke in my family that I am the 5th in the pecking order behind the cat!! I'm one of the least practical men in the world and my wife is one of the most, so part of the division has come from skillset, but that doesn't excuse me. If I get a spare hour, I will be reading about the metacrisis or out on a walk in nature as I continue to explore my spiritual awakening. If my wife gets a spare hour she will potter around finding practical things to do to keep the house in order. I am awe of her, actually.
Having said all that, I'm on record in countless conversations saying that 'if women were in all of the positions of power in the world, there would be so much more love and so much less hate in the world. I regard myself as being part of the patriarchy that is deeply uncomfortable with it's ramifications for humankind!
I suspect your wife is very very tired and perhaps needs more than just your awe. It irks me when men are in awe of their wives’ parenting or organisational skills. She has likely developed these skills not out of talent but out of a lack of willingness from her partner to share the load with her. So yes she does become expert. Because she is the default carer or household manager. You may find that she becomes tired of caring for you like a child, and would rather an equal to share in decisions and tasks.
I got fed up caring for a man + doing all the planning + most of the parenting, school, health etc. On top of that I was the main btead winner + stressing over finances.
All fair points, Renee. In fairness, we have fallen in to a pattern that both of us just tacitly seem to accept but I am trying to find the courage to have a deeper, longer conversation about it.
My partner and I started a conversation and sought a therapist about a year ago. It is the best thing we ever did for our relationship. We are turning towards each other more and changing the quality of our interactions. It takes effort every day, but the effort feels new and rewarding. As Jocelyn says, Do it Kevin. :)
Wow! Thank you, I really want to engage in this topic. My colleague (another male Clinical Psych) and I talk about this issue often. I firstly will say I agree with so many points you raise as to how this problem has arisen. Feminism is not to blame. In fact, many men have missed out on the liberation that feminist theory was offering to men/boys as well as to women. It was essentially an opportunity for revolution, and half of society missed out by not embracing it. Patriarchy x Capitalism, as you point out, has systemically broken down our human needs into human dysfunctions that can be monetised. All are paying the price for this. The price men are paying is in the relationship arena. They have been developmentally left behind, since schooling, and women are tired of ‘caring for boys’. I have worked with a lot of men in my practice where essentially they have been learning the language of emotions and relationships so they can be better partners and fathers. But it is a shame that our system break humans first, and then we need to ‘fix’ them. I too wish I had more answers. But I do know there are movements out there, lead by men, that offer a path forward. And they need our collective support. I am in Sydney right now and attended the Australian Father of The Year Awards ceremony yesterday (I am on the board of the charity that runs this event). It was a privilege to hear from Dr Arne Rubenstein, the recipient this year, who has been running Rites of Passage for boys for two decades. He is just one example of someone trying to help solve this problem that boys have in becoming the men our society, and their partners, are needing. Sorry this is soooo long for a comment. I will stop here. But again, great conversation for us all to have together, men and women, to help solve it, rather than be divided and pull apart.
My initial reaction is to recoil at Father of the Year. Where is Mother of the Year? Must men be rewarded for everything? But I’ll try to withhold my judgement. I will agree we need more men in the arena - speaking up on issues like men’s violence, FDV, toxic masculinity - and if the way to get them there is with praise and awards then so be it.
Hi Renee, Thank you for your comment. Believe me we are very aware that many have the same initial reaction. We certainly would welcome and support a similar program for mothers. However the reality in our society is that father absence is a problem. The intention of these awards is less about the award and more about trying to shine a light on positive examples for other men/fathers/boys to emulate. Many men who become fathers despair at never having a good role model to follow themselves. We hope this in some way helps. Also, many of the award winners over the years are doing great work to counter some of the issues you mention. I sincerely, and almost naively, hope that one day these awards will not be needed due to the overwhelming majority of men out there being great fathers, and equality in the home being the norm.....
Thanks for taking the time to write this comment! I really appreciate these words: “Patriarchy x Capitalism, as you point out, has systemically broken down our human needs into human dysfunctions that can be monetised.” And will spend some time dwelling on this.
Sarah thank you so much for articulating this. You've put into words so much that I witness and feel in my bones.
I look around at my friendship circles and see so many men (in their 40s and 50s) who seem so ill equipped on basic coping skills to navigate the predictable hardships of this time, let alone facing looming social collapse. They don't seem to know how to have meaningful friendships, how to shift out of a funk, how to address health niggles, how to find a new interest or broaden their support network, and let's not even get into separation. So many female friends seem loaded with supporting / parenting their former partners through their own separation, with teenagers in the mix.
That learned helplessness seems a natural result of a culture that accepts the bare minimum and rushes to smooth the path for boys and men to not have to reckon with personal struggle in the way that women and people of colour have to fight and scramble to be heard. Again here is a generalisation! My own teenage daughter appears entirely exasperated and bored by "hopeless men" and can spot them a mile away. It's sad and confusing and as you've so wisely articulated - probably always going to be the end game of patriarchy x capitalism .
And, yes, we are a culture that rushes to save men from discomfort...because we are scared of the violence and disruption that can occur if they are left in it. A total bind. I see my friends pander to their son's needs because they fear a tantrum or shut-down.
I write about this a bit in the post about the seres Adolescence.
Yes, so true! And if you live in countries where male violence us even more sanctified than in Oz, then women do a lot to save men from discomfort and they become quite inept + emotionally brittle..
The world built by men is in conflict, two opposing …….mmmm…. I’m trying to find the phrase to describe the feeling. Conflict with the feminine, created by a horribly masculine ignorant arrogant greed and need to control others and the Earth. I see this negative masculine nature most clearly in dictators, oppressors, war mongering leaders, oligarchs, white nationalistic gun toting types, wife abusing cowards, …… there’s a long list!
There is a negative masculine attribute to the problems and troubles.
I’m a man who is very much attracted to the feminine aspects of caring and nurturing, but so sad, feeling a minority. The kind quiet nurturing masculine nature is here and loves woman, children, nature, the Earth and all people.
kind, quite, nurturing masculine...I'm here for that! It's the most deeply attractive form of masculinity.
I was recently in a relationship with a man who fitted that brief...
But sadly he was not supported enough in the system to also stay vigilant and secure in this when discomfort arose. The sense that a lot of men have that their life is not meant to be uncomfortable is a real sticking point. Steve C's points above go some way in explaining it.
But Sarah, what will your kind and nurturing male do if you’re faced with a couple of belligerent drunks or somebody is trying to break into your home and the police are 30 minutes away? I suspect that is when you want the raw male back, you know, the one who can hit and kick and take a beating while protecting you, your children and your home, no? It’s not simple is it?
I've had a boyfriend who was kind, quiet, calm, extremely slow paced...but as soon as there was a noise, a threat, he was at the door ready to do what had to be done. I saw it in action a few times. He was very protective of me. he was very old fashioned and i think there's something in this - old fashioned values and morays helped teach boys when to react, and when not to...to ground their response in valour and moral values. And to have self-control.
Women deal with the threat of violence,harassment (ehich may turn violent) and belligerent drunks all the time. We're constantly alert to this out on the streets.
We have developed defensive strategies. Men have no idea how often we deal with thse situations without a man to save us.
It's a good question. But I think that many women would rather NOT have the "raw male," you think we will want if endangered, because it is those "raw make," qualities and personas that endanger us. We can band together to use our brains and strength to combat dangers, without overdeveloping characteristics in men that are destructive.
I'd also say (Sarah and Michale) all the best "raw" qualities of humans are best when tamed/guided by social values to support each other. There's no point discussing "raw" as something that has to be neanderthal...we have evolved.
I don't think there needs to be any kind of prescriptive "snag" label. And I don't think you and anyone here is suggesting a "cage fighting" man is going to be a solution...
Actually Michael no we don’t. We want someone to stand by us holding us while that scary situation is going on. I have been with a man like you speak of and I hated it. I left abandoned and left in scary situations while he was engaging in yet more violence. My husband now is exactly as described and when we had someone break in to our house he stayed by my side and we barricaded ourselves in the room and he calmly called the police. That is what most women actually want. An equal partner who is there supporting and sheltering them especially against the violence of other men.
I hear you Anna, and to be clear, I am not a proponent of violence by any stretch of the imagination - it is a brutal and ugly thing and to be avoided if possible… but in the example you used (i.e: barricading yourself until the police arrived) - what if the police did not arrive in time? Your male partner may try to reason with the attackers but will they be receptive to the Socratic method of discourse or will it come down to your partner using brute force to defend you & your family or succumbing to the attack? Yes, it’s not pretty, but such is life sometimes and wishing it to be otherwise does not make it so… THAT is my point. Women may want their partner to be gentle, kind, nurturing yet when the shit hits the fan, they will also highly likely expect him to morph into a protector and that involved the man getting in touch with his instinctual animal nature. Again, I am not arguing this is optimal, I am simply reporting what I see. You can’t have your cake and eat it too…
I don’t want my husband to put himself in danger against a random threat. I already had someone like that who was quick to battle, who eventually turned against me once things got hard. I’m married now, 17 years.
I want my husband’s love, respect and kindness while we are both raising our children nurturing our land and expanding our paths.
I see what you're saying here, Michael (I think), but for me that thinking is too binary. It doesn't have to be either/or. Either my man can protect me in an attack or he's soft and nurturing. Humans are so much more nuanced than that. It's the message men are given - be strong, be the protector, be a provider that is to blame (IMO) and doesn't allow them to also be soft, nurturing and kind as well because that's seen as 'weak'.
EDIT: I see that you're also a therapist and I imagine that you work with a lot of men. What have you seen or learned about this through the people you work with? As a woman, I can't know. I'm looking through my own filter.
I missed your edit, so let me try to respond here. I work as an addiction and trauma group therapist. In my experience about 70% or more of my clients of both genders present with complex-PTSD arising from childhood trauma and/or DV. what strikes me about my clients is the huge amount of damage that is caused by unhealthy family of origin dynamics. Some of it stemming from abuse - whether physical, sexual or emotional but a lot of it also stems from clients having enmeshed relationships with a primary caretaker which might leave them overly sensitive to other people‘s needs and unable to take care of their own needs, protect their rights or to have healthy boundaries… so the point that I would offer from this is that it’s not only brute violence that is harmful. It is also an unhealthy desire or need for closeness and connection not tempered by healthy boundaries and self awareness… and, without meaning to be sexist in any way, most of the offenders in this category are women i.e. mothers, so what I would offer is that it’s important for us to not only focus on the potential destructiveness of males but that of females as well.
to add to my second reply re: my clients: part of the problem when you have male children growing up with a mother that is immersed with them and needs her emotional needs through her son is that while they might learn to be profoundly sensitive and have a strong tendency to caretake others and rescue them, they also usually carry a lot of rage deep inside because they were used to meet the mother’s needs rather than being nurtured for who they were... I believe a lot of the violence whether emotional or physical by males might actually arise out of this particular dynamic. There is a need for balance in everything…
I agree 100% Sonia, and it is not my intention to be too “binary”. I agree that the ideal man would encompass both sides, but I think the key word here is “ideal”. Do you not think that it is a big ask that a man be sensitive soft nurturing but if a push comes to a shove he is able to go into a life or death situation to protect his loved ones? we can talk about social constructs and theories, but there are times - and we only have to look at the world around us today - when all of that flies out the window and what we are left with is “kill or be killed”. And my question is - is your sensitive & nurturing man able to go into that mode if circumstances require it? if he is, then you are very lucky to have someone like that. I just think they’re quite a rare occurrence… I wonder whether your position would be the same if instead of living in a relatively safe & spoiled West you were living somewhere significantly more dangerous?
Why would I expect that? What’s to say I wouldn’t respond physically myself in that situation? I question if that is just an underlying social construct that men think women would expect that? I actually don’t have the expectation that he react that way anymore or less than I have that expectation for myself. I wonder how much of that is cultural and class based as well.
I think if men were less “raw male”, we’d have fewer belligerent drunks and home invaders. And come to think of it, I’ve never been in a situation where I needed male protection (knock wood)—and if I ever am, it likely won’t be fisticuffs that will save me—it will be a fresh can of mace and a cell phone.
This is such a moot point in our current society, especially here in the US where citizens can legally own guns. An attacker or home invader is not stronger than a bullet. Women don’t need men to protect them from other men.
I believe it is essential to recognise that just as there is a very definite pronounced toxic side to male energy, the same applies to female energy - both have a shadow side. It is shallow thinking to say that men are violent and aggressive as if that defines them just as it is to say that women are unfailingly nurturing and caring. Men are capable of much compassion and caring while women can be vicious and toxic. Somebody said in an earlier comment that we struggle with nuance in our society – I couldn’t agree more. Deeper psychological realities reveal an interplay of light & darkness for both genders.
I suspect that is true Bianca, but I also suspect that there are some more complicated dynamics at play, some of which have been pointed out by other people in this platform. For example, men may be “virtue signalling” in order to attract women, or men that grew up in dysfunctional relationships with their mothers in which they were enmeshed with them and were treated by the mother as an emotional support mechanism rather than being nurtured as a child that needed to develop independent sense of self and healthy boundaries and now all they know is how to be sensitive and supportive yet deep inside they carry a deep reservoir of rage because their healthy masculinity has been repressed as has their healthy sense of self…
Poor mothers, they get blamed for everything. Too much nurturing, not enough nurturing. Does anyone fully develop an independent sense of self - when you are raised by other people, live in communities with their own sets of rules.
Come to think of it - if people were able to fully develop a sense of self in some metaphorical ideal conditions, would there be such a binary division between the sexes, ie, this is feminine, that is masculine, etc?
Don't get me started on the qualities that are deemed as feminine or masculine.
Lol, I chuckled about your comment that mothers get blamed for everything but without any disrespect… It can certainly seem like that, just like it can seem - especially in the current conversation - that males get blamed for everything… I am simply trying to balance the field, offer a balanced perspective. I believe that in reality the issue of alienation between genders is complex and while I have no answers I do believe it’s very important not to get hung up and blaming a specific gender or a particular group (e.g. mothers).
bell hooks wrote about the first act of the patriarchy was for the boy to kill the softness/feminine in him. If he didn’t do it himself then other men would. She also spoke of men having to choose between love and power. Patriarchy is power over. Love is power with. Violence has been seen as an infectious disease with vectors that spread it. Glasgow massively reduced violence by treating it as such. Bandy X Lee who wrote a book on violence says it comes from fear, weakness and shame. I think the entanglement of violence, fear and patriarchy has brought us here. Humans have the longest childhoods and are dependent upon others all our lives. Do we learn about ourselves in a way that helps us grow up to understand ourselves and how to respect others? No. We have religions that are patriarchal. (I’m enjoying Devon on instagram who asks’Paul’ to explain all the appalling behaviour in the bible.) Most of our systems ie law, economics, philosophy and literature, science medicine, erase or distort women and children’s experiences, needs and contributions. Regardless of gender growing up requires looking inward and making choices and doing your best. In other words we all need to not be an a**hole.
100% agree , the funny thing is men are now at where women were about 50 years ago.
Less financial freedom, under pressure and being bombarded with media and products suggesting that you suck and need something to fix it.
The capitalist system has come full circle and is biting us in the ass. The pain of which may very well bring the whole system down.
And I believe that there is enough love in the world to intimate power with (love this description) and this understanding of power and the immediate visceral effect it has on the body (I believe everyone feels this truth , even if you intellectually don’t quite get it)
Thankyou Sarah for putting all that down and sharing with us all. Please don't stop articulating all your thoughts and opinions, they are appreciated always and have on many occasions shaped opinions I thought I may not have, but then realise I really do.
Its a unfortunately a never ending discussion, but so worthy of continuing to push to discuss.
I work in major construction and mining and have in different parts of the world, and I too get tired and frustrated by a lot of men. The just wont ever get it I'm convinced.
We've always talked about certain men being a "mummy's boy", but so much of it always stems from fathers. Father figures, uncles, mentors, bosses etc etc.
A vicious circle of messaging down the line over centuries. "This is what a man does".
A large percentage of men just cannot communicate openly and have zero emotional depth.
I really wish I could say otherwise, but I cant.
Interesting as you wrote, "15 years ago for the first time since studies began, men's happiness is outstripping women's with male happiness increasing and female happiness decreasing".
Lines up with mobile phones and quality over that time perhaps?
Men go to porn, MMA, gambling, other dudes mentoring them how to be "better men" like Tate, while it seems women seek more depth, but have constant images of how they aren't losing weight quick enough after pregnancy, how good does she look for her age, lets rate what she wore, judgement and more continued comparison bullshit.
Men's attention spans are so much lower than a woman's IMO. They see things they don't like or agree with, they flick it. The algorithms are nailing the brief. They don't need religion, stick with the tried and true battle of the sexes to keep them occupied.
I wish I could report better news from the male front, but it is in fact getting worse, as more men default back to advice on being a man from influencers and TikTok.
The good news is that there are far more women in senior construction and project management roles than ever before.
Amazing strong women are better off independent (why say single?) if a partner doesn't give them all they need to bring them happiness. Uphold a high standard and then the good men need to step up to be better, if they want that to be with that person.
I know its all a lot lot deeper than this, just some ramblings.
I'm catching up late, but, so good to hear you back Sarah.
I suspect that men reporting that they are happier now, is due to two things, they are either starting to get their shit together , or they are are so far down the porn, gambling , casual sex rabbit hole that they are self numbing and blind to reality. Happiness means a lot of different things to different people. Asking men if they are satisfied, content and proud of their lives would be a better starting point. Along with how often do you find your self consuming porn, gambling or sex to self soothe? This would give a much more accurate picture of the status quo.
"feminist theory has always aimed to lift women and men from the grip of patriarchy. Feminists tend to be aware the problematic male behaviour often emerges from the system...instead, we need to acknowledge that the cause of men’s pain is patriarchy. And capitalism."
"the man crisis is a mirror that is enabling them to see what has been going on all along."
"Men can feel reassured, I reckon, that a healthy masculinist revolution initiated by men, will be encouraged, supported, cheer-leadered by most women. We will roll out red carpets and throw confetti. We won’t be killing or jailing you for your efforts."
Such a powerful piece, thank you for this.
Some thoughts: Of course men are the last to wake up because they were the most privileged within the system. You can be sure that the men who have been ostracized most in patriarchy will be the firsts to wake up. The rich, powerful men will be the last.
I love the ideas here about allowing for the transition to happen gracefully--let the men feel the weight of what is wrong. And also let them move on to a new identity that is not tied to their patriarchal power.
55 yrs on this planet. Several relationships. It's been aweful, abusive, hurtful. I'm done. I'm happier alone or with other women, trans people, and anyone with an understanding of male privelage, abuse of power, and (weaponized) incompetence. The good men I know are either trans, gay, married. I do not want to prove my worth to men. Others show me so much gratitude. I'm done expecting love from people who don't / can't / won't.
This is something me and my partner (male 😝) have actually discussed a lot. We have sensed a dislike for each others genders for 4/5 years now. We see it and we fear it. It whispers civil oppression on either side. So we help each other often see the other side of things. And now even more so as we brought into the world a baby boy. And whilst I am deeply grateful I can have deep conversations with him most times, I often get frustrated by the lack of emotional regulation he has. We’ve been together 6 years and I can’t count the amount of times I’ve been to therapy and likewise the amount of excuses he’s made for why he hasn’t started therapy.
My mum keeps jokingly saying that he is one of the good ones, which I agree with - but with that sentence often comes the excuse for him to not rise to the same growth effort I put into every single day.
All of this to say I fear we might grow apart if this keeps happening, because the trajectories of our mind seem to be going in a different direction, but then I remember that he shows up. He tries. He apologises. Which so much more than most men do. So the catch 22 begins again. 😂 he’s good enough or I’m settling?
I think the only salve to this is...for women to self-preserve by backing the F*CK off from needing men to satisfy all the needs they want them to. Per the GenZ approach. Hard when you're raising a kid together...but still very do-able. I think women need to turn more to friends and their own company a lot more, and then to "max" the stuff that men do offer. The catch 22 exists, too, in the way that when we (women) don't get what we need emotionally, we stay fixated on this, which pushes men into their silos more. Sigh...
Exactly!! And I do want to cherish and nourish the divine feminine and masculine that we have found many times by holding space for one another. In my personal opinion the only way out of this is through, and holding hands, not separating. If life is baseline hard, I choose my hard to be this, over another million lives I could have lived.
I agree and have been turning to friends recently, it’s been fun to “lean in” to my urge to call people that I left mostly in teenage years…I’ve often been that friend that disappeared, often from moving to a different state. I’m not one to leave Facebook, or social media because it’s how I’m able to stay in touch at all with a lot of my loved friends over the years. It’s humored me that I’ve had to ask a lot of them for their phone number because I didn’t have it, even for people who in my heart and soul I feel close to from various past experiences.
Your comment has prompted me to post because I am also in a relationship like this and it can be so frustrating. Yes, you are a “good one” but the bar historically has been pretty low so maybe we can find a higher standard to aim for? Please?
I have been married for 20 years, we are raising two girls and he is a very involved dad but when it comes to reading, learning and evolving as parents and people I feel as though that burden falls to me. I’m the one regularly attending therapy, booking the couples sessions (or sacrificing my own), and handling the emotional health of our family. He’s went to therapy a few times, acknowledges it’s helpful but then doesn’t book again for months or years. I share podcasts, books and resources but most of them go unattended to. I feel like he wants to want to do this work, but the reality is there is a gap growing between us while he stalls and I keep moving forward. It makes me sad because I want to see him step into immense possibility I see in him.
My experience and this topic make me think of bell hooks book “communion” where she wrote about many men being publicly feminist but still caught up in patriarchal patterns at home. I think about this a lot and see it in my own relationship and those of many in my circle. There are ways we as wives/partners can be complicit in this as well but most men I know aren’t actively working to change these at home dynamics. They are tough to break free of and I think often lead to women finally breaking down, breaking up or both.
Unrelated/related, Holly Whitaker’s Co-Regulation podcast episode with Meggan Watterson recently was an interesting listen. I appreciated her tenderness and emotion, pleading for an answer to what we can do to make good men care about women and women’s issues? I wanted to weep with her. I wish men could understand how much women want you to grow and evolve with us, how much we long for and are rooting for you to break the bonds of patriarchy with us.
This resonates with me too... BUT, not everyone is growth oriented but they may have other fine qualities. There is a "I do not want to grow, I just want to BE" vibe out there in some places. People need to be free to change in their own way at their own pace, (but there is more to this).
It is a good point, John, and one I wrestle with personally and in my relationship. How do we also allow ourselves to be? Such a tightrope of tension there for me. Really appreciating your “there is more to this.” My husband absolutely has other wonderful qualities, which is how we’ve got to 20 years. I just have this sense of us both (or perhaps it is just me) needing an elusive something more for what comes next, especially as our children are growing up and requiring less of us. Thanks for your reply. I am trying to honour my husband’s pace while not feeling like I need to limit myself at the same time—fine balance, not always successful.
Thanks for sharing, Sarah, and I wish you well. Intimate relationships are one of life's great challenges, risky and rewarding. Dating myself, Ann Landers made it simple... All things considered, I am better off in this relationship or not. No one outside of the relationship can answer that for us.
This is what I was thinking too, “mastering a task” is very appealing to me, while “personal growth” for its own sake sounds unpleasant. It’s a cultural difference.
“many men being publicly feminist but still caught up in patriarchal patterns at home.”
I’ve definitely seen/witnessed this, and the number of people I know who are divorced is increasing. Thank you for putting words to this phenomenon.
Also (unrelated) my dad’s often told me that he wanted to name me Sarah, but my mom won that debate. I’m loving all the “Sarah” power & sisterhood energy and insight in this article and comment thread. Perfect to find tonight when I’m unable to stay asleep! Way better than “doomscrolling” headlines or something… 🫶🏼
Your comment rings true for me, Francesca. I’m raising two boys with a man your mum would call a “good one”, but as our boys have got older I’ve had many conversations with him about his lack of emotional regulation. I bring the podcasts, links, articles etc explaining why and how we can both model emotional regulation (so it’s experts, not me giving the advice). He reads some of them, acts on some of them…and I get frustrated about having to do this “work”. Man-keeping doesn’t even capture this!
So glad we’re talking about this, thanks Sarah because I’m trying really hard to help my boys become good men, and it’s harder than I expected.
Can very much relate. We have begun marriage counselling, as I believe any kind of therapy is just as important as going to the dentist, and because well life is just bloody hard! What I have found irritating is comments from others (women) “oh you’re so lucky he’ll go”. No I’m not “lucky” - we’re in a partnership. Why shouldn’t he??!
I agree. When he does normal things I do every day with baby I hear many people saying he’s a good dad. He is. But it’s not because he does baseline baby care. Haha
Thank you for opening up this topic for discussion Sarah. I appreciate the people who have already commented in a kind, compassionate and considered way. And those that have commented from their lived experience.
I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the "gender wars" that I see on social media. There is a chasm, it's widening, and it needs to be addressed. I don't have any suggestions or fixes but I am open to hearing and reading others thoughts.
To your point about not having "meaty conclusions" or "fixes" in your writing, although I appreciate it when you do offer conclusions, I love reading your thoughts and then seeing what interesting conversations emerge in this community.
I don't always engage, but I always read and appreciate those that do comment.
I have missed your newsletters in my inbox, you cover such a variety of topics and I'm always excited to see a notification from you.
Yes I agree. I am not here specifically for "meaty conclusions" or "fixes". I appreciate the raw, difficult, robust discussion, vulnerability and bravery to tackle uncomfortable topics. Thank you Sarah for starting this conversation and thank you everyone for your comments.
I actually don't think those men are resenting women. I think there is a specific type of lonely man who is resenting that his life isn't turning out the way he had hoped regarding women and he is projecting that rather than looking internally. I don't know how to solve that but I do believe that to be the case. Full disclosure-- I'm a happily married cishet dude so take my comment through that context.
Can I ask, Zac, as a bloke here who "gets it", who does this impass make you feel? A lot of my female friends and I ask each other...what are the alert men thinking and feeling? Do they feel compelled to fire up and take charge? Is there shame felt? Someone here has asked what the men in my orbit say to these issues I pose here... and my answer is...not much. They will listen and nod...but I remain in the dark as to what their real felt experience is...
Sorry to dump on you here....!!! Other men heremight like to chime in...
There is a lot of shame for sure. My guy friends and I joke that masculinity is a prison a lot haha. I think we are all trying to navigate which parts of masculinity we still think can serve us, our loved ones, and our communities. It's really messy. We have begun to talk about it more. In these small pockets, I feel a lot of hope for men. I'm lucky to be friends with a couple of amazing fathers.
When I look at the concerted effort by grifters and influencers to package and sell toxic masculinity as a product I lose a lot of that hope. They're so insidious and they move so fast. For instance, when I use social media I am fed some of the most right-wing hyper-masculine nonsense in my suggested posts regardless of how many times I hit "not interested". The algorithm can tell I am a man, most likely a heterosexual white man, and the worst stuff imaginable gets pushed to me.
When I encounter these men, I push back as best I can. Tellingly, I rarely encounter them in the real world but constantly run into them online. It's so hard to even tell if these men are real or bots but I even with bots my thought process is that "even if this is a bot, maybe if a young man sees that there is pushback to this, they won't fall for it."
To end on a happier note-- All of my nephews (I'm uncle Zac to my blood-relatives but also to my friend's kids) are seemingly immune to these grifters and I think to a lot of the worst aspects of toxic masculinity. I think it helps that their parents and I talk to them about it, what to do with anger and what it means to be strong. Them and my nieces are amazing kids.
Thanks Zac...that gives me a bit of insight...that Guardian article I link to at the end of my piece details just how quickly men are targeted by the bots etc. It shows how primed the system is for misogyny.
I’m interested to hear of your experience with social media, Zac. My husband’s feed is the same, he shows me often and likewise, no matter how many times he flags “not interested”, the algorithm persists.
As a millennial couple, we are well aware of that happening but for the generations of boys who now grow up with this technology in their back pocket from age 12(?), often with little to no parental restrictions, it’s sadly not hard to see how this spirals.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, Zac. Truly value the honest insight from yourself and all the men commenting here.
I follow people like Sarah, cool musicians, philosophers , poets, photographers, fashion labels, hiking and some interesting sporting people, and the majority of my friends list is female. and my suggested reels , etc etc is full of Only Fans women, random mens work grifters, weird click bait bots with some sort of sexual conotations, just dark horrible tripe. This is on Insta, FB is just a mish mash of bots and weirdness. This is part algorithm , but also a lot due to paid pushing by the snake oil sellers.
I find that I often don't chime in to these discussions, even though I feel I have some value as a gender "translator," because my experience seems very specific and unrelatable/unreplicable. I'm a trans man, so I feel a little like I "cheated" on "getting it" - I have the experience of being raised as a girl to inform my empathy and understanding. At the same time, as a passing trans man, I have seen and experienced the world of men and...kinda hate it. Once I got over the desire to fit in as a guy, I pretty much stopped trying to have male friendships. I'm lucky in that I'm a therapist, so a lot of the men I now interact with are also therapists or are clients in therapy, which means they tend to be the more sensitive, emotionally aware sort.
But I was recently lamenting to my wife how much I hate trying to play adult recreational sports with men, and it's entirely because of how we treat each other. "Fun" and "friendly" competition on the field looks and feels like bullying to me, and I wasn't raised to learn how to brush that off. (Girls/women's sports are so supportive and oriented towards being a good sport IMO; you can be a fierce competitor but you don't cross certain lines.) My wife sometimes gets impatient with me for engaging in conflict with other men in these situations because I think from her perspective, we all look like man-babies. But I pointed out to her that she would never get pushed around or spoken to on a co-ed team the way that I am because I'm a man. It feels like I'm left with two options: get pushed around or fight back. And that is the man trap, isn't it? Even though I see it clear as day, sometimes I can't escape it.
Anyway, might be a tangent from your question, but I appreciate the invitation to chime in. As an aside, I read your linked article about the gender stuff and was really impressed and in agreement. I mean, as you will have gathered from my comments, I'm a trans therapist which means I provide gender-affirming counseling and of course am supportive of the development of trans identities. But this stuff is hard even for me to talk about. I agree that "muddying the waters" of gender identity will only lead to more backlash. I hope you'll write more on this subject, we need voices like yours.
Cody, I really appreciate this comment. I have a trans man friend here in Paris and they report the same.
Re your comment on the previous gender article - thank you. A lot of perspective and nuance gets lost with these topics. It suits the powerful interests to have us bicker back and forth in a linear framing. I mean, it works!!!
I hear you re the physical and verbal jousting with men. It's a thing which as a man I never really got. But for some reason it is a man thing, especially in Australia. It is some sort of ranking system which guys use to establish hierarchy within the group. And also a kind of demented way of giving affection and also testing the level of connection. I.E how much shit can I give this guy where he still my friend. Or when it is weaponised it is just blatant bullying and trying to destroy a persons sense of self.
Women do it too, but in less physical ways (apart from beauty products and services), and more on a subtle emotional or psychological level. Everyone wants to get as high on the perch as possible , and know clearly if they belong there.
It is a big reason why men do not like to stick their necks out on important topics. Because back in the day the pack would literally eat you alive if you stepped out side the status quo too much. Or the neighbouring pack would eat your brain etc etc (I now a little overboard, but you get my drift).
Old patterns and ways of being which do not translate well in a modern, weird society.
Glad that you are out there doing team sports and navigating that space, I need to get back into Basketball and amongst the packs a bit.
My advice is to try and feel into the jabs, do they have a level of banter about them? Is it friendly jousting? I can imagine that the other men involved are probably navigating a new space also and are making a fucking mess of it.
But if it is deliberate meanness , then just stop the game and tell them to solidly fuck off. The other guys will get it instantly as the pack senses the aggression and if it is playful or being a prick. And then they will understand your place in the pack and that you want to be there. The worse thing you can do is walk off into the jungle and take yourself out of the game.
It's a minefield out there , and don't feel alone being confused as fuck :) Just have some golden barbs dripping with honey to stick back in their ribs next time they have a dig. There is also a level of desire for physical contact and a safe outlet for frustration , and also testing our strength and touching the physical world outside of our weird heads. And just the sheer abandon of throwing our bodies around. But sometimes people are clumsy. Sorry if I am being patronising , just wanted to say I get it :)
Thank you for sharing your experience. It's so interesting how close it mirrors my own. Like I said, I'm a cisgender heterosexual man but I don't fit in with a lot of traditional masculinity. Growing up a couple of my friends actually thought I was gay because of it. They were so shocked that I didn't seem to do a lot of masculine things. To their credit, I found out about it because they were very kindly telling me they were okay with it. A lot of performed masculinity has always felt incredibly abrasive to me. I was a cook for 15 years and I had to adopt a persona that my wife and I call "chef Zac" so that I wouldn't just get run over in my day-to-day. I guess ultimately what I'm saying is that masculinity is a spectrum but, man, we are told it isn't supposed to be.
I can share this from my personal experience. I’m a childhood trauma survivor and recovering codependent who has spent bulk of his adult life working through a lot of family of origin trauma. At present, I work as a psychotherapist in the field of addiction working with clients who have had similar backgrounds to mine and I also teach in the field. Having done over 10 years of my own therapy and having 30+ years of recovery behind my belt, my experience and intuition tells me that in order for us to grow and survive as a society we as individuals need to go deeper into our understanding of what has shaped us and what is right for us at a deep level rather than get caught up blaming a particular group or following a particular (external) school of thought. I realise that this is both general and abstract and lacking in useful specifics, but I guess the thing I want to say is “”No, I do not feel any shame for being a man and for the state of the world.” I do however despair frequently for us as a species, as I believe our ability to master the physical world far exceeds our emotional and spiritual maturity and that means that we are likely doomed to extinction. The answer for me is not in identifying as a male or female. White or black. Hetero or LGBTQI. It is in going deeper into my reality as a human being and doing my best to integrate, evolve and to allow that to be expressed in my day-to-day life in an authentic manner.
I agree with Zac, there are a lot of men out there scratching their heads saying okay "what now". Just like a lot of women who do not subscribe to the statues quo but are unable to find the way themselves or guys who have figured it out. And there are a lot of men projecting their frustration onto women rather than facing the facts and failures of their life.
I am not to deep into male aussie culture as I don't particularly like men, but I do have a solid male friendship group who are outliers like me. We look back at the world and scratch our heads, but also stick our necks out and have some effect. My best friend in Sweden was at a conference a little while back doing a kick off brain storming week with one of his clients. The CEO, after watching his open heartedness at play, asked him each night at dinner to speak about the theme for the day, or what was the felt sense of the days work.
They all thoroughly enjoyed a man speaking from his heart of what he felt and enjoyed about the day, with no bars held.
It feels like a panic, and an emergency, and it is, but emergencies when dealt with correctly allow new things to emerge. And all that is needed is honesty and accountability.
I'm really lucky that I personally have those relationships. I have a friend that I've known since we were 12 (we both turn 39 this month) and we talk about mental health a lot. I think that it's uncommon though.
It's tough because I want to push other men to talk about these things and feel comfortable but we've been taught so strongly that it's venom, so I know pushing too hard only gets them to dig their heels in and shut down.
A lot of men don’t have any close friends they can confide in or call in a crisis. Growing up I had more female friends than male and there are a lot of men who are in the same boat today due to “Nice Guy” conditioning. The problem “Nice Guys” have with having so many female friends is twofold: 1) they’re rejecting their male peers and their own masculinity, and 2) they often are running a covert contract on the unsuspecting female (sometimes the male is unaware he’s doing it) whereby he thinks that if he’s friends with her long enough eventually she’ll date him or sleep with him. This is how boys and men unwittingly put themselves in the “friend zone” - more times than not it’s this scenario that’s occurring and not that a girl/woman is “stringing him along”. All of this is of course occurring within the patriarchal conditioning that encourages boys to see each other as competition, to not be vulnerable with one another for fear of looking weak or “feminine”, and this leads to many boys/men having gaming/drinking/sports buddies but not solid men that are in their corner.
I personally am part of a brotherhood of men called the Uncivilized Nation which is dedicated to men supporting other men’s growth. There are thankfully more men’s groups in the world just a few years ago when I started doing this work but one should definitely vet the group to ensure it’s not a white supremaciast/hate group etc. General advice for men looking for male friends is to go on Meetup and attend events they would do or like to try: hiking groups, brewery tastings, etc. The idea is to get active with other men doing the things you already like doing or want to learn to do better.
I thought some readers might appreciate hearing about a conversation I had last month which reflects the chasm between men and women to address patriarchy. At my work, a middle aged white male has recently come to realise how pervasive and destructive sexism is. He has been sending me a few links about how the IT (Information Technology) culture is sexist (I’m not sure why he sent them to me). He tells me how it is important for women to show men the path to fix sexism, and he says that women need to design IT to eliminate sexism. He says he doesn’t know what he can do to help in his corner of the world. He is earnest, concerned, awakened to some of the issues.
I am in my late 50s. I tell him that I don’t need further education thank you, I am well aware of the sexism in IT. I say that these links might be useful for the men in our office though, and I tell him that I’m glad he is learning more about the situation. I tell him why men actually need to be a big part of the solution, that women can't make the changes alone, and I give him concrete ideas about how he can progress these ideas in our own office. For instance, he can show one of the videos that he sent me at a staff meeting, and then lead a discussion with staff about how we can address these issues. He tells me he better get permission first from the executive. I am more senior than this man is: I know that he does not need to get permission, and I remind him so.
This conversation happened via an online chat. At this point, he comes to my desk to stress that he is on the side of women, but unfortunately, he’s not willing to "make waves" himself because he knows it will "fall flat" with his peers. He actually asked me - exhorted me - to "fight the fight" instead. And I told him I’ve been fighting for decades and I’m exhausted. I tell him I fought when I was in a much weaker position than he currently is, that my career took big setbacks because of my advocacy, and said that that he wouldn’t be risking very much at all by speaking up.
Also, he stood so close to me (I was seated at my desk) that I was squashed in place with no freedom to move and had to crick my neck to talk to him.
My heart was so heavy after this interaction. He thinks he’s one of the good guys. Yet there is so much further for him to go.
I experience the same - men planting on me what I need to do to fix things. People like Scott Gallaway would have no idea that women are the ones who are, indeed, expected to fix their problems...as well as men's problems.
The example you give reminds me how men will also on pass the making of the coffee at meetings to women etc. An extraordinary ability to pass over anything that makes them feel uncomfortable.
It is all so....galling. Because it's a reinforcing Catch22
It appears to be common (in my experience) for 50+ guys to seek “reward” for possessing/advocating a feminist attitude. They are happy to talk the talk but not walk it *sigh*. I definitely share your exhaustion.
You’re 100% correct Ellen that there are men who will look to gain something for being a feminist. I’ve seen this among my generation and younger (at 38 I’m an older Millennial man). Super frustrating to see and I imagine for women it’s exhausting to have to be vigilant for yet one more aberrant behavior from men.
I know as a 51 yo I really struggle to bring out the gold stars these days. I used to....but, yes, I'm fed up with it all TBH. I was about to "thank you" for voicing up...then realised that his is part of what we're talking about!!!
Sarah, I do appreciate the thought you bring to various issues, but your “gold star” comment here is an example of what makes me (and perhaps men in general) want to either pull back or push back. Don’t you think it’s patronising? As if men were little children that were being educated by their “betters”? Again the unspoken assumption seems to be that somehow women have all the answers and men are the only problem… That shuts down genuine inquiry… Women are flawed just as man are and it would be really encouraging to see an exploration of THAT so that the focus is not just on the overwhelming problematic nature of the fatally flawed males but the other side of the equation too… Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to deny the problems created by patriarchy or the general need of men to become more emotionally mature and integrated… I just don’t believe that this is the whole picture. I think it is extremely important if we want to maintain a genuine inquiry and a balanced and reasonable approach to not buy into (gradually and unconsciously) the paradigm that it’s all men’s fault and women have not contributed to the current issues at all in any way, shape or form. As a thinker, I am sure you appreciate that this kind of simplistic approach is unlikely to be true & valid. perhaps the way to start healing the breach between males and females is to try and take a more balanced approach to finding fault and responsibility… I appreciate this may feel extremely counterintuitive especially if you feel that it’s the woman that have been doing all the work, as they have in many ways for a long time, but I believe it’s helpful to identify the shadow on both sides of the equation…
I think here she's not generalising, Bianca's made a statement in a relevant place, in context, about how she's felt/thought. It's not a categorical statement of fact.
Yes, I think there is, though I suspect that conflict avoidance applies across gender boundaries. For what it's worth, I've worked with many clients of both genders - some of whom were conflict averse, others sought it out. Temperament, family of origin (where we learn about how to manage conflict and where we often learn to deny our needs and rights and/or are shamed for feeling and expressing healthy anger with the result that we form unhealthy boundaries with others) background, level of self-esteem/confidence etc. - all can play a role. I just don't think that it's helpful to tar everybody of the same gender with the same brush. Consider for example that I as a male posted my first response to you risking conflict - is that the act of a coward? And you responded in a civil, reasoned way, and we have made (a very tentative and limited but healthy) connection... Perhaps there is hope for us all yet:).
Michael, I don't think anyone here is saying "all men". I'm wondering, too, if as a therapist, you tend to see both a larger skew of women who have avoidance issues (than the standard population) and a larger skew of men who do actually face their demons (because they are indeed going to therapy)? I've tried to be careful to flag that my points apply to the dominant picture of men's behaviour in our culture.
I work as an outpatient addiction therapist, interestingly I haven’t identified specific gender traits. I would say though that 70-80% of my clients come from abusive family backgrounds and most of them struggle with healthy conflict & finding their voice.
Perhaps, but I've seen it so many times, even in non-consequential situations, ie at work. I suppose there's a crossover between being confrontation-averse and being a coward?
when my old Italian birding husband and I got married we wrote into our vows, "deconditioning buddies." Both of us were carrying shite patterns and running corrupt codes from our culture and family and we knew we'd have to acknowledge them to not lose sight of the fact that we are (all of us) precious babes of the cosmos, playing at being human and often having absolutely no sense of which way is up. When our ugly gender patterns come up, "me: I'm aging! Oh no! I was supposed to be young and hot forever- how do I bear the weight of living in an ageist pyschodome?" or him: " I have no friends anymore, they're all trauma bound, addicted and doing harm and when I try to make friends they think I'm creeping on them." And having a larger framework that we are all undoing those patterns helps us not confuse the patterns for the human. My teenage son recently did a spat in public school (lasted ten days) and reported that he did not know how to be friends with the male bodied folk there who "only want to fuck, eat or hurt because they're hurting so bad and don't know it." And so, and so. We've grown up in a poison lake, there's poison in our lungs, in our ways of understanding each other. How to create a gentleness around the bridge we must build together to get out of this fucking horrible swim? Thanks, as always, for being a bit of an Atlas, holding up the awareness of the world on your wonderfully inquirefull shoulders.
As someone who has always enjoyed the company of women I am at a loss regarding men who want to generalise about women. Each encounter can be so unique if you listen and ‘see’ women. I had a great mother and many special aunts and great aunts, some without children, I have a daughter that has taught me so much and a woman I have spent more than half my life with.
I can still do all the man shit as well as the next guy.
My advice to men, listen more, talk less, hear what the women in your life say and be conscious of responding to what they ask and you are gunna have some great encounters and a more enjoyable life.
My suggestion Michael don’t be a cliche yourself and don’t be a ferret running down rabbit holes and make each encounter with women mindful so we do our bit to break the cycle and not feed it. This is not a competition this is a chance for a much better, healthier and happier life.
But Tony, do you not also see a HUGE amount of generalisations about men? I think that is one of the core problems - it’s just easier and emotionally more comfortable to project and make it all about the other gender i.e. generalise rather than look at finer nuances…
This is everything I’ve been thinking for months. Not to be reductive, but I’ve seen this play out on dating apps. Two years ago I was using them and having fun. Met some great guys. Mostly all positive. Fast forward to earlier this year and I lasted a day before I deleted everything in defeat. Men and women just really don’t like each other that much. Yet we’re still trying to thrust ourselves together in places like dating apps with a weird disdain and hesitance that makes any form of genuine connection impossible . I’m at a loss.
sadly, I think the apps have accentuated what you observe. In fact, the algorithms they use have been show to do just this. As a result, people are leaving the apps and they are suffering financially.
I think they very much enable and mangnify avoidance
Absolutely. In fact I’d go so far as to say they reward avoidance. There’s very little incentive to work in partnership with each other when we can just jump back into our phones and swipe on someone ‘easier’.
I feel this deeply and resonate with all you say. I lasted three days on the apps just recently. Like you, I used to enjoy them and had good experiences....now it's just awful.
What a powerful read!! Thank you for being able to put into words how many of us are feeling but unsure how to talk about. You’ve hit the nail on the head with so many of your points. I’m a woman in my 40s in a heterosexual marriage to a great guy but boy do I feel seen by the term “man keeping”!! I’ve been the one who has held our marriage together in times of crisis. And as a mother of three children it can often feel like I have four children!
I have two sons who I hope I am raising as ‘SNAGs’. As a very sensitive empath myself I’m raising them to be good PEOPLE. To be kind, respectful, generous hearted, curious, all-feeling individuals.
I lost my brother to suicide 10 years ago… the world was too hard for him… as a mother I dearly want to do my best to raise boys who can navigate this world in a healthy and loving way.
I may not be articulating myself well. It’s early and I’m procrastinating from the school lunches. But this conversation is so incredibly important and I’m so grateful for you sharing. 🙏🫶
Something you write her strikes me as salient, Ange - re your brother's tragic death - "the world was too hard for him". So much in this. The world is certainly changing and becoming less "easy" to navigate for men. But the real difficulty - what makes it "TOO" hard - is that they are not equipped to - and don't want to - adjust and rise to the hard things. I think part of the frustration you, others and I are expressing here is that men are somehow thinking that they should not HAVE to do hard things, that their privilege should extend ad infinitum.
I think the problem is we are all doing to many hard things. We are caught in a millenia long religious/capitalist/toxic patriarchal or matriarchal business/family and societal structure. It is unravelling while also doubling down on itself, and we are exhausted and acting like children, and not doing the right things. In fact we don't even have a fucking clue what the right things are. But as mentioned below, start with don't be a dick. If you feel glee at inflicting harm on another human being via, words, or actions. Then you are being a dick, full stop, easy peasy.
If you say please can we talk, please stop doing what you are doing it is hurting me because of a,b, or c, or please just leave my presence or life. Then you are not being a dick. Simples
Keep going 👌🏼 well written , and feel free to express that you are a little overwhelmed and would like some help with a,b and c. Men are either on or off, and do not always see the whole picture. Respect his overwhelm , but also respect your need for some assistance to make the team strong
Sound.
Overwhelm is what a lot of men I know are feeling. If only they could just say it as such, not become defensive etc etc etc
Lots of defensiveness , and definitely a lot of denial too. I can remember when I did not even feel my own body, hunger or thirst. Just keep moving, keep trying. Don’t stop , in a panic as it felt like it was all on me. I can understand how a mother feels with the dude on the couch or stuck in the betting app, or still at work trying to prove himself or avoiding home. Jeeebz 🤦🏻♂️ but we are talking about it. So it is good.
Hello all,
So good to be back and chewing the fat - which is possibly gristle now!
Well said Steve. Your comment that" Men are either on or off" has really got me thinking. Is that nature or nuture? Is having to ask for help with a,b or c, more spoon feeding and manplanning or or is it direction that will lead to enlightenment? Hmmm?
Loving this space.
XX.
I think we are all really fucking tired , and I was going to say Sarah, I am glad that you are sitting comfortably in the I don’t have a solution space.
I had an insight today , re the feminism has been shifting things for 100 years now. Shit takes time, and things need to pendulum swing back into balance. Just look at women’s bodies these days. And men’s , our bodies are a direct reflection of our inner emotional and spiritual state.
I have never seen women looking as strong as they do these days.
Muscular but also still feminine, or
at the other end of the spectrum
obscenely grotesque due to a manufactured body. They are learning how to feel powerful and good in their bodies , or collapsing into self doubt.
While men are getting more slight and having to deal with not being as powerful anymore. Or they go RFK Jr or Joe Rogan and juice up and become a demented beast. Once again , collapsing into their self doubt.
It is a process , and all change is uncomfortable and for vast periods of time there is no clear answer, just the path.
Good work everyone. 🙏🏼🥳
hahah...signing off on behalf of "men"?
the body thing fascinates me, too.
those dual trends are fascinating...Yes, the overall trajectory is women getting more warrior-like, with a kind of recalcitrant "last days of Rome" compensatory reaction at the edges (the botox, fake nails, trad vibe), and men somewhat giving up (and then there's the corresponding over reaction at the edges, too).
Whoops , a typo / cut and paste left over , not men , just me ✌🏼 was off for a walk to watch whales and feel some SE sea breeze
The men in positions of power around the world right now make me question the social progress I have seen in my lifetime.
Many would argue that they are products of deep trauma. You could also argue they are products f seeing their inherited, patriarchal system crumble in front of them.
While I like Sarah's initial question, the responses to it are complex and the backdrop of increasingly powerful tech and a collapsing system make the depth of those challenges more difficult to navigate?
Yep nailed it. Really f*ing tired. Still love men tho! (And to your point, just back in from the gym lol)
Go the gains girl 💪🏼🤦🏻♂️🥳👌🏼
Just don’t forget recovery day ✌🏼😋
That starts now! Time for another episode of Breaking Bad
This point really struck me. Is it nature or nurture. I am raising one of each gender and I often wonder this. I see inherent differences and it cannot all be down to socialisation. But how do we teach and help men to overcome the on/off or is that a pipe dream? How do I as a woman work with the on/off without feeling that is just more mental work for me? Cause I have to say right now I’m taking a leaf from my Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids and disengaging. I have watched men around me focus on them selves and unintentionally a lot of the time put themselves first. Example when I as a woman come down in the morning I’m doing 15 jobs straight off the bat. My husband goes to the coffee machine and makes himself breakfast and a coffee and eats it. No thought to other stuff. I agree it is not because he is a bad person he is just not “on” and looking at contributing. I hear many women say well then the things don’t get done and yes that is true. But if I choose to do them instead of prioritising my own needs first is that just more learned behaviour. If I want them done because my neurospicy brain needs order to function is that then my choice. I have stepped away from resentment against men these days. I do fee disappointment for them, for many of us because our systems are not set up for when women take this inevitable step back and away. I find however I am in myself happier if I choose to own both my own decisions to do things and my own choices around what I no longer do for others, including the man in my life.
I think it is definitely a part of our nature. Something that I have seen in myself and also observed in men. Particularly a pack of men or team.
If you reduce it back to something basic like evolutionary biology it kind of makes sense. But you always find what you want to find when looking backwards.
What I mean is guys have a tendency to get into a project, and then goes hard at it until collapse. Focus on the hunt, go hard until the prey is caught. Or the house is built etc etc. Women do this also, but I think men have a little more tunnel vision in this.
Jason Wilson talks about this well here with Mel Robins https://open.spotify.com/episode/31DzqAea9ALRP3QSWfeBnr?si=JYr9TKAnQ1urljACbe4CVw
And especially how men get into trouble for lying around (which they do, I 100% agree that they / I take the piss)😅
So what happens is men sneak around to find their rest or get all righteous and demand it. And get extra upset that there rest is not allowed and their work / contribution is not acknowledged.
Exactly like we do to women, who are also trying to show that they care and are contributing, but in the rush of life, and expectations and our own sense of lack get missed and not valued
I want to suggest a discussion on the dividing up of responsibility or rather a conversation which highlights each partners strengths.
Where the team has already agreed to differ to the other regarding certain things and certain tasks.
Men like direction and they like getting the job done and resting. It is not babying , babying is when they are micro managed or their fatigue is minimised or dismissed.
Saying this , women need to ask for and also give themselves rest. Brene Browns family has a barometer that they use. They ask each other where is your level of pressure? So each person takes responsibility for their own state of being. But also for acknowledging it and communicating it to their loved ones. This puts the team on the same page and allows for good solutions to arise.
Rather than everyone just going going going , look at me, I love you, and you don’t see how hard I am trying , you fuckers 😅😝🤦🏻♂️
I Agree Steve C - men are great when they are required to rise to an emergency. Problem is... the world doesn't do emergencies like it used to. They are slow - not instant. They require vigilant maintenance and forethought. So men need to adjust their settings. Fast.
Re women...yep, women are certainly responsible for not putting up boundaries around their need to rest...I think the slow-burn emergency mode means they don't feel they can....not while the men are snoozing on the couch!
The honest discussions re capacity and current state of mind and feeling of connection are good. Men don’t feel like they can stop because it will mean they need to feel , and they lost their sense of self and purpose.
Women a little the same I can imagine. The funny thing is, both will thrive from the honest conversations. Because both will feel seen and heard and activated in the way most natural for either gender or relational polarity
That is one of the good things with guys getting into meditation (as long as they don’t escape into it). Things are (haven’t they always been though?) going to be uncomfortable for the foreseeable future. So yep, guys need to get with the program.
Need a network of men like those French guys to start the podcast seat jumping and get discussions going. The Booktok ex footy gent the other day was on the ABC discussing how he pissed his football money against the wall or dumped it into betting apps. Even went as far to say that the NRL is a very toxic place for men to be in. At least for him. Men feel it, they just need a guy or other men to show them the way out and a new way to operate.
I listened to the Jason Wilson podcast. It was insightful. Acknowledges nature and nurture.
Biggest take away - when directed and supported, men can move from toxic masculinity to being able to participate in the full human experience.
Thanks Steve.🙂
He is one of the best guides out there today I think. A great balance of emotional intelligence anchored in the body. And developing young men how can stand up to out of control men and deliver real consequences in a safe manner. Either verbally or physically
I totally get this. I have been married for 37 years and do not believe I've always 'pulled my weight' in the division of labour. I'm often referred to as the 3rd child and we even joke in my family that I am the 5th in the pecking order behind the cat!! I'm one of the least practical men in the world and my wife is one of the most, so part of the division has come from skillset, but that doesn't excuse me. If I get a spare hour, I will be reading about the metacrisis or out on a walk in nature as I continue to explore my spiritual awakening. If my wife gets a spare hour she will potter around finding practical things to do to keep the house in order. I am awe of her, actually.
Having said all that, I'm on record in countless conversations saying that 'if women were in all of the positions of power in the world, there would be so much more love and so much less hate in the world. I regard myself as being part of the patriarchy that is deeply uncomfortable with it's ramifications for humankind!
I suspect your wife is very very tired and perhaps needs more than just your awe. It irks me when men are in awe of their wives’ parenting or organisational skills. She has likely developed these skills not out of talent but out of a lack of willingness from her partner to share the load with her. So yes she does become expert. Because she is the default carer or household manager. You may find that she becomes tired of caring for you like a child, and would rather an equal to share in decisions and tasks.
I got fed up caring for a man + doing all the planning + most of the parenting, school, health etc. On top of that I was the main btead winner + stressing over finances.
We are now divorced.
your story is the same as about 7-8 of my close friends
Yes, it's sad but ultimately we have limited energy and time.
Good. Glad that you escaped.
Do it Kevin.
All fair points, Renee. In fairness, we have fallen in to a pattern that both of us just tacitly seem to accept but I am trying to find the courage to have a deeper, longer conversation about it.
My partner and I started a conversation and sought a therapist about a year ago. It is the best thing we ever did for our relationship. We are turning towards each other more and changing the quality of our interactions. It takes effort every day, but the effort feels new and rewarding. As Jocelyn says, Do it Kevin. :)
Thanks Steve,
It’s all food for thought and it’s the thoughts that lead to the ideas that will be “ lying around “ when we need to act.
Let’s keep our hearts and minds open!🙃
Wow! Thank you, I really want to engage in this topic. My colleague (another male Clinical Psych) and I talk about this issue often. I firstly will say I agree with so many points you raise as to how this problem has arisen. Feminism is not to blame. In fact, many men have missed out on the liberation that feminist theory was offering to men/boys as well as to women. It was essentially an opportunity for revolution, and half of society missed out by not embracing it. Patriarchy x Capitalism, as you point out, has systemically broken down our human needs into human dysfunctions that can be monetised. All are paying the price for this. The price men are paying is in the relationship arena. They have been developmentally left behind, since schooling, and women are tired of ‘caring for boys’. I have worked with a lot of men in my practice where essentially they have been learning the language of emotions and relationships so they can be better partners and fathers. But it is a shame that our system break humans first, and then we need to ‘fix’ them. I too wish I had more answers. But I do know there are movements out there, lead by men, that offer a path forward. And they need our collective support. I am in Sydney right now and attended the Australian Father of The Year Awards ceremony yesterday (I am on the board of the charity that runs this event). It was a privilege to hear from Dr Arne Rubenstein, the recipient this year, who has been running Rites of Passage for boys for two decades. He is just one example of someone trying to help solve this problem that boys have in becoming the men our society, and their partners, are needing. Sorry this is soooo long for a comment. I will stop here. But again, great conversation for us all to have together, men and women, to help solve it, rather than be divided and pull apart.
Don't apologise for giving us all more insight on this issue. This is certainly a realm where men are very much invited to over-contribute if need be.
please do chime in on other comments here, if it grabs you...we need to swirl in this a bit.
My initial reaction is to recoil at Father of the Year. Where is Mother of the Year? Must men be rewarded for everything? But I’ll try to withhold my judgement. I will agree we need more men in the arena - speaking up on issues like men’s violence, FDV, toxic masculinity - and if the way to get them there is with praise and awards then so be it.
Hi Renee, Thank you for your comment. Believe me we are very aware that many have the same initial reaction. We certainly would welcome and support a similar program for mothers. However the reality in our society is that father absence is a problem. The intention of these awards is less about the award and more about trying to shine a light on positive examples for other men/fathers/boys to emulate. Many men who become fathers despair at never having a good role model to follow themselves. We hope this in some way helps. Also, many of the award winners over the years are doing great work to counter some of the issues you mention. I sincerely, and almost naively, hope that one day these awards will not be needed due to the overwhelming majority of men out there being great fathers, and equality in the home being the norm.....
We are on the same page. It’s Both great and important work And a shame it is necessary.
Thanks for taking the time to write this comment! I really appreciate these words: “Patriarchy x Capitalism, as you point out, has systemically broken down our human needs into human dysfunctions that can be monetised.” And will spend some time dwelling on this.
Sarah thank you so much for articulating this. You've put into words so much that I witness and feel in my bones.
I look around at my friendship circles and see so many men (in their 40s and 50s) who seem so ill equipped on basic coping skills to navigate the predictable hardships of this time, let alone facing looming social collapse. They don't seem to know how to have meaningful friendships, how to shift out of a funk, how to address health niggles, how to find a new interest or broaden their support network, and let's not even get into separation. So many female friends seem loaded with supporting / parenting their former partners through their own separation, with teenagers in the mix.
That learned helplessness seems a natural result of a culture that accepts the bare minimum and rushes to smooth the path for boys and men to not have to reckon with personal struggle in the way that women and people of colour have to fight and scramble to be heard. Again here is a generalisation! My own teenage daughter appears entirely exasperated and bored by "hopeless men" and can spot them a mile away. It's sad and confusing and as you've so wisely articulated - probably always going to be the end game of patriarchy x capitalism .
I witness very much the same.
And, yes, we are a culture that rushes to save men from discomfort...because we are scared of the violence and disruption that can occur if they are left in it. A total bind. I see my friends pander to their son's needs because they fear a tantrum or shut-down.
I write about this a bit in the post about the seres Adolescence.
Yes, so true! And if you live in countries where male violence us even more sanctified than in Oz, then women do a lot to save men from discomfort and they become quite inept + emotionally brittle..
I agree with so much of this! I particularly feel that we as a society have become brittle and weak.
Our inability to uphold nuance has been an ongoing theme here, and I believe it forms a core part of the male/female divide.
Algorithms have been pushing us to ever more quickly jump to anger and to other people who are different to us and gender is a core differential.
The world built by men is in conflict, two opposing …….mmmm…. I’m trying to find the phrase to describe the feeling. Conflict with the feminine, created by a horribly masculine ignorant arrogant greed and need to control others and the Earth. I see this negative masculine nature most clearly in dictators, oppressors, war mongering leaders, oligarchs, white nationalistic gun toting types, wife abusing cowards, …… there’s a long list!
There is a negative masculine attribute to the problems and troubles.
I’m a man who is very much attracted to the feminine aspects of caring and nurturing, but so sad, feeling a minority. The kind quiet nurturing masculine nature is here and loves woman, children, nature, the Earth and all people.
kind, quite, nurturing masculine...I'm here for that! It's the most deeply attractive form of masculinity.
I was recently in a relationship with a man who fitted that brief...
But sadly he was not supported enough in the system to also stay vigilant and secure in this when discomfort arose. The sense that a lot of men have that their life is not meant to be uncomfortable is a real sticking point. Steve C's points above go some way in explaining it.
But Sarah, what will your kind and nurturing male do if you’re faced with a couple of belligerent drunks or somebody is trying to break into your home and the police are 30 minutes away? I suspect that is when you want the raw male back, you know, the one who can hit and kick and take a beating while protecting you, your children and your home, no? It’s not simple is it?
I've had a boyfriend who was kind, quiet, calm, extremely slow paced...but as soon as there was a noise, a threat, he was at the door ready to do what had to be done. I saw it in action a few times. He was very protective of me. he was very old fashioned and i think there's something in this - old fashioned values and morays helped teach boys when to react, and when not to...to ground their response in valour and moral values. And to have self-control.
Women deal with the threat of violence,harassment (ehich may turn violent) and belligerent drunks all the time. We're constantly alert to this out on the streets.
We have developed defensive strategies. Men have no idea how often we deal with thse situations without a man to save us.
It's a good question. But I think that many women would rather NOT have the "raw male," you think we will want if endangered, because it is those "raw make," qualities and personas that endanger us. We can band together to use our brains and strength to combat dangers, without overdeveloping characteristics in men that are destructive.
I'd also say (Sarah and Michale) all the best "raw" qualities of humans are best when tamed/guided by social values to support each other. There's no point discussing "raw" as something that has to be neanderthal...we have evolved.
SNAG one minute and a rough-and-ready cage-fighter the next? A lovely idea, but am not convinced that such s synthesis is possible in reality😊.
I don't think there needs to be any kind of prescriptive "snag" label. And I don't think you and anyone here is suggesting a "cage fighting" man is going to be a solution...
Actually Michael no we don’t. We want someone to stand by us holding us while that scary situation is going on. I have been with a man like you speak of and I hated it. I left abandoned and left in scary situations while he was engaging in yet more violence. My husband now is exactly as described and when we had someone break in to our house he stayed by my side and we barricaded ourselves in the room and he calmly called the police. That is what most women actually want. An equal partner who is there supporting and sheltering them especially against the violence of other men.
I hear you Anna, and to be clear, I am not a proponent of violence by any stretch of the imagination - it is a brutal and ugly thing and to be avoided if possible… but in the example you used (i.e: barricading yourself until the police arrived) - what if the police did not arrive in time? Your male partner may try to reason with the attackers but will they be receptive to the Socratic method of discourse or will it come down to your partner using brute force to defend you & your family or succumbing to the attack? Yes, it’s not pretty, but such is life sometimes and wishing it to be otherwise does not make it so… THAT is my point. Women may want their partner to be gentle, kind, nurturing yet when the shit hits the fan, they will also highly likely expect him to morph into a protector and that involved the man getting in touch with his instinctual animal nature. Again, I am not arguing this is optimal, I am simply reporting what I see. You can’t have your cake and eat it too…
I have dogs for protection.
I don’t want my husband to put himself in danger against a random threat. I already had someone like that who was quick to battle, who eventually turned against me once things got hard. I’m married now, 17 years.
I want my husband’s love, respect and kindness while we are both raising our children nurturing our land and expanding our paths.
I see what you're saying here, Michael (I think), but for me that thinking is too binary. It doesn't have to be either/or. Either my man can protect me in an attack or he's soft and nurturing. Humans are so much more nuanced than that. It's the message men are given - be strong, be the protector, be a provider that is to blame (IMO) and doesn't allow them to also be soft, nurturing and kind as well because that's seen as 'weak'.
EDIT: I see that you're also a therapist and I imagine that you work with a lot of men. What have you seen or learned about this through the people you work with? As a woman, I can't know. I'm looking through my own filter.
I missed your edit, so let me try to respond here. I work as an addiction and trauma group therapist. In my experience about 70% or more of my clients of both genders present with complex-PTSD arising from childhood trauma and/or DV. what strikes me about my clients is the huge amount of damage that is caused by unhealthy family of origin dynamics. Some of it stemming from abuse - whether physical, sexual or emotional but a lot of it also stems from clients having enmeshed relationships with a primary caretaker which might leave them overly sensitive to other people‘s needs and unable to take care of their own needs, protect their rights or to have healthy boundaries… so the point that I would offer from this is that it’s not only brute violence that is harmful. It is also an unhealthy desire or need for closeness and connection not tempered by healthy boundaries and self awareness… and, without meaning to be sexist in any way, most of the offenders in this category are women i.e. mothers, so what I would offer is that it’s important for us to not only focus on the potential destructiveness of males but that of females as well.
to add to my second reply re: my clients: part of the problem when you have male children growing up with a mother that is immersed with them and needs her emotional needs through her son is that while they might learn to be profoundly sensitive and have a strong tendency to caretake others and rescue them, they also usually carry a lot of rage deep inside because they were used to meet the mother’s needs rather than being nurtured for who they were... I believe a lot of the violence whether emotional or physical by males might actually arise out of this particular dynamic. There is a need for balance in everything…
I agree 100% Sonia, and it is not my intention to be too “binary”. I agree that the ideal man would encompass both sides, but I think the key word here is “ideal”. Do you not think that it is a big ask that a man be sensitive soft nurturing but if a push comes to a shove he is able to go into a life or death situation to protect his loved ones? we can talk about social constructs and theories, but there are times - and we only have to look at the world around us today - when all of that flies out the window and what we are left with is “kill or be killed”. And my question is - is your sensitive & nurturing man able to go into that mode if circumstances require it? if he is, then you are very lucky to have someone like that. I just think they’re quite a rare occurrence… I wonder whether your position would be the same if instead of living in a relatively safe & spoiled West you were living somewhere significantly more dangerous?
Why would I expect that? What’s to say I wouldn’t respond physically myself in that situation? I question if that is just an underlying social construct that men think women would expect that? I actually don’t have the expectation that he react that way anymore or less than I have that expectation for myself. I wonder how much of that is cultural and class based as well.
I think if men were less “raw male”, we’d have fewer belligerent drunks and home invaders. And come to think of it, I’ve never been in a situation where I needed male protection (knock wood)—and if I ever am, it likely won’t be fisticuffs that will save me—it will be a fresh can of mace and a cell phone.
Agreed, I thought we already explained we’d rather trust a Bear?
This is such a moot point in our current society, especially here in the US where citizens can legally own guns. An attacker or home invader is not stronger than a bullet. Women don’t need men to protect them from other men.
I believe it is essential to recognise that just as there is a very definite pronounced toxic side to male energy, the same applies to female energy - both have a shadow side. It is shallow thinking to say that men are violent and aggressive as if that defines them just as it is to say that women are unfailingly nurturing and caring. Men are capable of much compassion and caring while women can be vicious and toxic. Somebody said in an earlier comment that we struggle with nuance in our society – I couldn’t agree more. Deeper psychological realities reveal an interplay of light & darkness for both genders.
There seem to be more and more caring men, especially compared to previous generations. I
I suspect that is true Bianca, but I also suspect that there are some more complicated dynamics at play, some of which have been pointed out by other people in this platform. For example, men may be “virtue signalling” in order to attract women, or men that grew up in dysfunctional relationships with their mothers in which they were enmeshed with them and were treated by the mother as an emotional support mechanism rather than being nurtured as a child that needed to develop independent sense of self and healthy boundaries and now all they know is how to be sensitive and supportive yet deep inside they carry a deep reservoir of rage because their healthy masculinity has been repressed as has their healthy sense of self…
Poor mothers, they get blamed for everything. Too much nurturing, not enough nurturing. Does anyone fully develop an independent sense of self - when you are raised by other people, live in communities with their own sets of rules.
Come to think of it - if people were able to fully develop a sense of self in some metaphorical ideal conditions, would there be such a binary division between the sexes, ie, this is feminine, that is masculine, etc?
Don't get me started on the qualities that are deemed as feminine or masculine.
Define healthy masculinity.
Lol, I chuckled about your comment that mothers get blamed for everything but without any disrespect… It can certainly seem like that, just like it can seem - especially in the current conversation - that males get blamed for everything… I am simply trying to balance the field, offer a balanced perspective. I believe that in reality the issue of alienation between genders is complex and while I have no answers I do believe it’s very important not to get hung up and blaming a specific gender or a particular group (e.g. mothers).
Love this David.
bell hooks wrote about the first act of the patriarchy was for the boy to kill the softness/feminine in him. If he didn’t do it himself then other men would. She also spoke of men having to choose between love and power. Patriarchy is power over. Love is power with. Violence has been seen as an infectious disease with vectors that spread it. Glasgow massively reduced violence by treating it as such. Bandy X Lee who wrote a book on violence says it comes from fear, weakness and shame. I think the entanglement of violence, fear and patriarchy has brought us here. Humans have the longest childhoods and are dependent upon others all our lives. Do we learn about ourselves in a way that helps us grow up to understand ourselves and how to respect others? No. We have religions that are patriarchal. (I’m enjoying Devon on instagram who asks’Paul’ to explain all the appalling behaviour in the bible.) Most of our systems ie law, economics, philosophy and literature, science medicine, erase or distort women and children’s experiences, needs and contributions. Regardless of gender growing up requires looking inward and making choices and doing your best. In other words we all need to not be an a**hole.
I am taking so much from the above, Fran.
I have a post in drafts..."Just don't be a dick"...as the ultimate life advice now.
Oh I can’t wait to read this one!! Rachel Castle has a great print of just this saying! https://www.castleandthings.com.au/collections/dont-be-a-dick
😝😅👍🏼
100% agree , the funny thing is men are now at where women were about 50 years ago.
Less financial freedom, under pressure and being bombarded with media and products suggesting that you suck and need something to fix it.
The capitalist system has come full circle and is biting us in the ass. The pain of which may very well bring the whole system down.
And I believe that there is enough love in the world to intimate power with (love this description) and this understanding of power and the immediate visceral effect it has on the body (I believe everyone feels this truth , even if you intellectually don’t quite get it)
Thankyou Sarah for putting all that down and sharing with us all. Please don't stop articulating all your thoughts and opinions, they are appreciated always and have on many occasions shaped opinions I thought I may not have, but then realise I really do.
Its a unfortunately a never ending discussion, but so worthy of continuing to push to discuss.
I work in major construction and mining and have in different parts of the world, and I too get tired and frustrated by a lot of men. The just wont ever get it I'm convinced.
We've always talked about certain men being a "mummy's boy", but so much of it always stems from fathers. Father figures, uncles, mentors, bosses etc etc.
A vicious circle of messaging down the line over centuries. "This is what a man does".
A large percentage of men just cannot communicate openly and have zero emotional depth.
I really wish I could say otherwise, but I cant.
Interesting as you wrote, "15 years ago for the first time since studies began, men's happiness is outstripping women's with male happiness increasing and female happiness decreasing".
Lines up with mobile phones and quality over that time perhaps?
Men go to porn, MMA, gambling, other dudes mentoring them how to be "better men" like Tate, while it seems women seek more depth, but have constant images of how they aren't losing weight quick enough after pregnancy, how good does she look for her age, lets rate what she wore, judgement and more continued comparison bullshit.
Men's attention spans are so much lower than a woman's IMO. They see things they don't like or agree with, they flick it. The algorithms are nailing the brief. They don't need religion, stick with the tried and true battle of the sexes to keep them occupied.
I wish I could report better news from the male front, but it is in fact getting worse, as more men default back to advice on being a man from influencers and TikTok.
The good news is that there are far more women in senior construction and project management roles than ever before.
Amazing strong women are better off independent (why say single?) if a partner doesn't give them all they need to bring them happiness. Uphold a high standard and then the good men need to step up to be better, if they want that to be with that person.
I know its all a lot lot deeper than this, just some ramblings.
I'm catching up late, but, so good to hear you back Sarah.
Thanks Steve B...I appreciate you adding your ideas and experiences...
A lot of women are feeling much more secure in being "independent" (good word)...but the pull of male pheromones presents the pesky problem...
A small dab of toothpaste under each nostril Sarah.😁
Less pheromones, and more Ramones. Dance of the temptation sometimes😅🤘
I suspect that men reporting that they are happier now, is due to two things, they are either starting to get their shit together , or they are are so far down the porn, gambling , casual sex rabbit hole that they are self numbing and blind to reality. Happiness means a lot of different things to different people. Asking men if they are satisfied, content and proud of their lives would be a better starting point. Along with how often do you find your self consuming porn, gambling or sex to self soothe? This would give a much more accurate picture of the status quo.
"feminist theory has always aimed to lift women and men from the grip of patriarchy. Feminists tend to be aware the problematic male behaviour often emerges from the system...instead, we need to acknowledge that the cause of men’s pain is patriarchy. And capitalism."
"the man crisis is a mirror that is enabling them to see what has been going on all along."
"Men can feel reassured, I reckon, that a healthy masculinist revolution initiated by men, will be encouraged, supported, cheer-leadered by most women. We will roll out red carpets and throw confetti. We won’t be killing or jailing you for your efforts."
Such a powerful piece, thank you for this.
Some thoughts: Of course men are the last to wake up because they were the most privileged within the system. You can be sure that the men who have been ostracized most in patriarchy will be the firsts to wake up. The rich, powerful men will be the last.
I love the ideas here about allowing for the transition to happen gracefully--let the men feel the weight of what is wrong. And also let them move on to a new identity that is not tied to their patriarchal power.
...yes, and they need to get onto it faster....because too much damage is being done while we (patiently) wait.
Needs to be a yes...and...thing!
55 yrs on this planet. Several relationships. It's been aweful, abusive, hurtful. I'm done. I'm happier alone or with other women, trans people, and anyone with an understanding of male privelage, abuse of power, and (weaponized) incompetence. The good men I know are either trans, gay, married. I do not want to prove my worth to men. Others show me so much gratitude. I'm done expecting love from people who don't / can't / won't.
Trans men are delights in my experience. I wish more hetero men could hang out with them.
This is something me and my partner (male 😝) have actually discussed a lot. We have sensed a dislike for each others genders for 4/5 years now. We see it and we fear it. It whispers civil oppression on either side. So we help each other often see the other side of things. And now even more so as we brought into the world a baby boy. And whilst I am deeply grateful I can have deep conversations with him most times, I often get frustrated by the lack of emotional regulation he has. We’ve been together 6 years and I can’t count the amount of times I’ve been to therapy and likewise the amount of excuses he’s made for why he hasn’t started therapy.
My mum keeps jokingly saying that he is one of the good ones, which I agree with - but with that sentence often comes the excuse for him to not rise to the same growth effort I put into every single day.
All of this to say I fear we might grow apart if this keeps happening, because the trajectories of our mind seem to be going in a different direction, but then I remember that he shows up. He tries. He apologises. Which so much more than most men do. So the catch 22 begins again. 😂 he’s good enough or I’m settling?
Thank you for bringing it up!
I know the dilemma...my friends wrangle with it.
I think the only salve to this is...for women to self-preserve by backing the F*CK off from needing men to satisfy all the needs they want them to. Per the GenZ approach. Hard when you're raising a kid together...but still very do-able. I think women need to turn more to friends and their own company a lot more, and then to "max" the stuff that men do offer. The catch 22 exists, too, in the way that when we (women) don't get what we need emotionally, we stay fixated on this, which pushes men into their silos more. Sigh...
Exactly!! And I do want to cherish and nourish the divine feminine and masculine that we have found many times by holding space for one another. In my personal opinion the only way out of this is through, and holding hands, not separating. If life is baseline hard, I choose my hard to be this, over another million lives I could have lived.
I agree and have been turning to friends recently, it’s been fun to “lean in” to my urge to call people that I left mostly in teenage years…I’ve often been that friend that disappeared, often from moving to a different state. I’m not one to leave Facebook, or social media because it’s how I’m able to stay in touch at all with a lot of my loved friends over the years. It’s humored me that I’ve had to ask a lot of them for their phone number because I didn’t have it, even for people who in my heart and soul I feel close to from various past experiences.
Your comment has prompted me to post because I am also in a relationship like this and it can be so frustrating. Yes, you are a “good one” but the bar historically has been pretty low so maybe we can find a higher standard to aim for? Please?
I have been married for 20 years, we are raising two girls and he is a very involved dad but when it comes to reading, learning and evolving as parents and people I feel as though that burden falls to me. I’m the one regularly attending therapy, booking the couples sessions (or sacrificing my own), and handling the emotional health of our family. He’s went to therapy a few times, acknowledges it’s helpful but then doesn’t book again for months or years. I share podcasts, books and resources but most of them go unattended to. I feel like he wants to want to do this work, but the reality is there is a gap growing between us while he stalls and I keep moving forward. It makes me sad because I want to see him step into immense possibility I see in him.
My experience and this topic make me think of bell hooks book “communion” where she wrote about many men being publicly feminist but still caught up in patriarchal patterns at home. I think about this a lot and see it in my own relationship and those of many in my circle. There are ways we as wives/partners can be complicit in this as well but most men I know aren’t actively working to change these at home dynamics. They are tough to break free of and I think often lead to women finally breaking down, breaking up or both.
Unrelated/related, Holly Whitaker’s Co-Regulation podcast episode with Meggan Watterson recently was an interesting listen. I appreciated her tenderness and emotion, pleading for an answer to what we can do to make good men care about women and women’s issues? I wanted to weep with her. I wish men could understand how much women want you to grow and evolve with us, how much we long for and are rooting for you to break the bonds of patriarchy with us.
This resonates with me too... BUT, not everyone is growth oriented but they may have other fine qualities. There is a "I do not want to grow, I just want to BE" vibe out there in some places. People need to be free to change in their own way at their own pace, (but there is more to this).
It is a good point, John, and one I wrestle with personally and in my relationship. How do we also allow ourselves to be? Such a tightrope of tension there for me. Really appreciating your “there is more to this.” My husband absolutely has other wonderful qualities, which is how we’ve got to 20 years. I just have this sense of us both (or perhaps it is just me) needing an elusive something more for what comes next, especially as our children are growing up and requiring less of us. Thanks for your reply. I am trying to honour my husband’s pace while not feeling like I need to limit myself at the same time—fine balance, not always successful.
Thanks for sharing, Sarah, and I wish you well. Intimate relationships are one of life's great challenges, risky and rewarding. Dating myself, Ann Landers made it simple... All things considered, I am better off in this relationship or not. No one outside of the relationship can answer that for us.
This is what I was thinking too, “mastering a task” is very appealing to me, while “personal growth” for its own sake sounds unpleasant. It’s a cultural difference.
“many men being publicly feminist but still caught up in patriarchal patterns at home.”
I’ve definitely seen/witnessed this, and the number of people I know who are divorced is increasing. Thank you for putting words to this phenomenon.
Also (unrelated) my dad’s often told me that he wanted to name me Sarah, but my mom won that debate. I’m loving all the “Sarah” power & sisterhood energy and insight in this article and comment thread. Perfect to find tonight when I’m unable to stay asleep! Way better than “doomscrolling” headlines or something… 🫶🏼
Resonating so strongly with all of this, thank you!
Your comment rings true for me, Francesca. I’m raising two boys with a man your mum would call a “good one”, but as our boys have got older I’ve had many conversations with him about his lack of emotional regulation. I bring the podcasts, links, articles etc explaining why and how we can both model emotional regulation (so it’s experts, not me giving the advice). He reads some of them, acts on some of them…and I get frustrated about having to do this “work”. Man-keeping doesn’t even capture this!
So glad we’re talking about this, thanks Sarah because I’m trying really hard to help my boys become good men, and it’s harder than I expected.
Can very much relate. We have begun marriage counselling, as I believe any kind of therapy is just as important as going to the dentist, and because well life is just bloody hard! What I have found irritating is comments from others (women) “oh you’re so lucky he’ll go”. No I’m not “lucky” - we’re in a partnership. Why shouldn’t he??!
I agree. When he does normal things I do every day with baby I hear many people saying he’s a good dad. He is. But it’s not because he does baseline baby care. Haha
What do you mean by emotional regulation here? Does he snap at your or the kids when he gets frustrated?
Thank you for opening up this topic for discussion Sarah. I appreciate the people who have already commented in a kind, compassionate and considered way. And those that have commented from their lived experience.
I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the "gender wars" that I see on social media. There is a chasm, it's widening, and it needs to be addressed. I don't have any suggestions or fixes but I am open to hearing and reading others thoughts.
To your point about not having "meaty conclusions" or "fixes" in your writing, although I appreciate it when you do offer conclusions, I love reading your thoughts and then seeing what interesting conversations emerge in this community.
I don't always engage, but I always read and appreciate those that do comment.
I have missed your newsletters in my inbox, you cover such a variety of topics and I'm always excited to see a notification from you.
Yes I agree. I am not here specifically for "meaty conclusions" or "fixes". I appreciate the raw, difficult, robust discussion, vulnerability and bravery to tackle uncomfortable topics. Thank you Sarah for starting this conversation and thank you everyone for your comments.
Thanks both!
I actually don't think those men are resenting women. I think there is a specific type of lonely man who is resenting that his life isn't turning out the way he had hoped regarding women and he is projecting that rather than looking internally. I don't know how to solve that but I do believe that to be the case. Full disclosure-- I'm a happily married cishet dude so take my comment through that context.
Agree
Can I ask, Zac, as a bloke here who "gets it", who does this impass make you feel? A lot of my female friends and I ask each other...what are the alert men thinking and feeling? Do they feel compelled to fire up and take charge? Is there shame felt? Someone here has asked what the men in my orbit say to these issues I pose here... and my answer is...not much. They will listen and nod...but I remain in the dark as to what their real felt experience is...
Sorry to dump on you here....!!! Other men heremight like to chime in...
There is a lot of shame for sure. My guy friends and I joke that masculinity is a prison a lot haha. I think we are all trying to navigate which parts of masculinity we still think can serve us, our loved ones, and our communities. It's really messy. We have begun to talk about it more. In these small pockets, I feel a lot of hope for men. I'm lucky to be friends with a couple of amazing fathers.
When I look at the concerted effort by grifters and influencers to package and sell toxic masculinity as a product I lose a lot of that hope. They're so insidious and they move so fast. For instance, when I use social media I am fed some of the most right-wing hyper-masculine nonsense in my suggested posts regardless of how many times I hit "not interested". The algorithm can tell I am a man, most likely a heterosexual white man, and the worst stuff imaginable gets pushed to me.
When I encounter these men, I push back as best I can. Tellingly, I rarely encounter them in the real world but constantly run into them online. It's so hard to even tell if these men are real or bots but I even with bots my thought process is that "even if this is a bot, maybe if a young man sees that there is pushback to this, they won't fall for it."
To end on a happier note-- All of my nephews (I'm uncle Zac to my blood-relatives but also to my friend's kids) are seemingly immune to these grifters and I think to a lot of the worst aspects of toxic masculinity. I think it helps that their parents and I talk to them about it, what to do with anger and what it means to be strong. Them and my nieces are amazing kids.
Thanks Zac...that gives me a bit of insight...that Guardian article I link to at the end of my piece details just how quickly men are targeted by the bots etc. It shows how primed the system is for misogyny.
I’m interested to hear of your experience with social media, Zac. My husband’s feed is the same, he shows me often and likewise, no matter how many times he flags “not interested”, the algorithm persists.
As a millennial couple, we are well aware of that happening but for the generations of boys who now grow up with this technology in their back pocket from age 12(?), often with little to no parental restrictions, it’s sadly not hard to see how this spirals.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, Zac. Truly value the honest insight from yourself and all the men commenting here.
I follow people like Sarah, cool musicians, philosophers , poets, photographers, fashion labels, hiking and some interesting sporting people, and the majority of my friends list is female. and my suggested reels , etc etc is full of Only Fans women, random mens work grifters, weird click bait bots with some sort of sexual conotations, just dark horrible tripe. This is on Insta, FB is just a mish mash of bots and weirdness. This is part algorithm , but also a lot due to paid pushing by the snake oil sellers.
I find that I often don't chime in to these discussions, even though I feel I have some value as a gender "translator," because my experience seems very specific and unrelatable/unreplicable. I'm a trans man, so I feel a little like I "cheated" on "getting it" - I have the experience of being raised as a girl to inform my empathy and understanding. At the same time, as a passing trans man, I have seen and experienced the world of men and...kinda hate it. Once I got over the desire to fit in as a guy, I pretty much stopped trying to have male friendships. I'm lucky in that I'm a therapist, so a lot of the men I now interact with are also therapists or are clients in therapy, which means they tend to be the more sensitive, emotionally aware sort.
But I was recently lamenting to my wife how much I hate trying to play adult recreational sports with men, and it's entirely because of how we treat each other. "Fun" and "friendly" competition on the field looks and feels like bullying to me, and I wasn't raised to learn how to brush that off. (Girls/women's sports are so supportive and oriented towards being a good sport IMO; you can be a fierce competitor but you don't cross certain lines.) My wife sometimes gets impatient with me for engaging in conflict with other men in these situations because I think from her perspective, we all look like man-babies. But I pointed out to her that she would never get pushed around or spoken to on a co-ed team the way that I am because I'm a man. It feels like I'm left with two options: get pushed around or fight back. And that is the man trap, isn't it? Even though I see it clear as day, sometimes I can't escape it.
Anyway, might be a tangent from your question, but I appreciate the invitation to chime in. As an aside, I read your linked article about the gender stuff and was really impressed and in agreement. I mean, as you will have gathered from my comments, I'm a trans therapist which means I provide gender-affirming counseling and of course am supportive of the development of trans identities. But this stuff is hard even for me to talk about. I agree that "muddying the waters" of gender identity will only lead to more backlash. I hope you'll write more on this subject, we need voices like yours.
Cody, I really appreciate this comment. I have a trans man friend here in Paris and they report the same.
Re your comment on the previous gender article - thank you. A lot of perspective and nuance gets lost with these topics. It suits the powerful interests to have us bicker back and forth in a linear framing. I mean, it works!!!
Hey Cody,
I hear you re the physical and verbal jousting with men. It's a thing which as a man I never really got. But for some reason it is a man thing, especially in Australia. It is some sort of ranking system which guys use to establish hierarchy within the group. And also a kind of demented way of giving affection and also testing the level of connection. I.E how much shit can I give this guy where he still my friend. Or when it is weaponised it is just blatant bullying and trying to destroy a persons sense of self.
Women do it too, but in less physical ways (apart from beauty products and services), and more on a subtle emotional or psychological level. Everyone wants to get as high on the perch as possible , and know clearly if they belong there.
It is a big reason why men do not like to stick their necks out on important topics. Because back in the day the pack would literally eat you alive if you stepped out side the status quo too much. Or the neighbouring pack would eat your brain etc etc (I now a little overboard, but you get my drift).
Old patterns and ways of being which do not translate well in a modern, weird society.
Glad that you are out there doing team sports and navigating that space, I need to get back into Basketball and amongst the packs a bit.
My advice is to try and feel into the jabs, do they have a level of banter about them? Is it friendly jousting? I can imagine that the other men involved are probably navigating a new space also and are making a fucking mess of it.
But if it is deliberate meanness , then just stop the game and tell them to solidly fuck off. The other guys will get it instantly as the pack senses the aggression and if it is playful or being a prick. And then they will understand your place in the pack and that you want to be there. The worse thing you can do is walk off into the jungle and take yourself out of the game.
Thanks, I genuinely appreciate that advice and will give it some thought next time I'm in a social situation with men
It's a minefield out there , and don't feel alone being confused as fuck :) Just have some golden barbs dripping with honey to stick back in their ribs next time they have a dig. There is also a level of desire for physical contact and a safe outlet for frustration , and also testing our strength and touching the physical world outside of our weird heads. And just the sheer abandon of throwing our bodies around. But sometimes people are clumsy. Sorry if I am being patronising , just wanted to say I get it :)
Thank you for sharing your experience. It's so interesting how close it mirrors my own. Like I said, I'm a cisgender heterosexual man but I don't fit in with a lot of traditional masculinity. Growing up a couple of my friends actually thought I was gay because of it. They were so shocked that I didn't seem to do a lot of masculine things. To their credit, I found out about it because they were very kindly telling me they were okay with it. A lot of performed masculinity has always felt incredibly abrasive to me. I was a cook for 15 years and I had to adopt a persona that my wife and I call "chef Zac" so that I wouldn't just get run over in my day-to-day. I guess ultimately what I'm saying is that masculinity is a spectrum but, man, we are told it isn't supposed to be.
I can share this from my personal experience. I’m a childhood trauma survivor and recovering codependent who has spent bulk of his adult life working through a lot of family of origin trauma. At present, I work as a psychotherapist in the field of addiction working with clients who have had similar backgrounds to mine and I also teach in the field. Having done over 10 years of my own therapy and having 30+ years of recovery behind my belt, my experience and intuition tells me that in order for us to grow and survive as a society we as individuals need to go deeper into our understanding of what has shaped us and what is right for us at a deep level rather than get caught up blaming a particular group or following a particular (external) school of thought. I realise that this is both general and abstract and lacking in useful specifics, but I guess the thing I want to say is “”No, I do not feel any shame for being a man and for the state of the world.” I do however despair frequently for us as a species, as I believe our ability to master the physical world far exceeds our emotional and spiritual maturity and that means that we are likely doomed to extinction. The answer for me is not in identifying as a male or female. White or black. Hetero or LGBTQI. It is in going deeper into my reality as a human being and doing my best to integrate, evolve and to allow that to be expressed in my day-to-day life in an authentic manner.
I agree with Zac, there are a lot of men out there scratching their heads saying okay "what now". Just like a lot of women who do not subscribe to the statues quo but are unable to find the way themselves or guys who have figured it out. And there are a lot of men projecting their frustration onto women rather than facing the facts and failures of their life.
I am not to deep into male aussie culture as I don't particularly like men, but I do have a solid male friendship group who are outliers like me. We look back at the world and scratch our heads, but also stick our necks out and have some effect. My best friend in Sweden was at a conference a little while back doing a kick off brain storming week with one of his clients. The CEO, after watching his open heartedness at play, asked him each night at dinner to speak about the theme for the day, or what was the felt sense of the days work.
They all thoroughly enjoyed a man speaking from his heart of what he felt and enjoyed about the day, with no bars held.
It feels like a panic, and an emergency, and it is, but emergencies when dealt with correctly allow new things to emerge. And all that is needed is honesty and accountability.
I was also wondering if men feel positively supported by other men.
I'm really lucky that I personally have those relationships. I have a friend that I've known since we were 12 (we both turn 39 this month) and we talk about mental health a lot. I think that it's uncommon though.
It's tough because I want to push other men to talk about these things and feel comfortable but we've been taught so strongly that it's venom, so I know pushing too hard only gets them to dig their heels in and shut down.
Gosh, I wonder how many other blokes are feeling the same...how do you meet each other???
A lot of men don’t have any close friends they can confide in or call in a crisis. Growing up I had more female friends than male and there are a lot of men who are in the same boat today due to “Nice Guy” conditioning. The problem “Nice Guys” have with having so many female friends is twofold: 1) they’re rejecting their male peers and their own masculinity, and 2) they often are running a covert contract on the unsuspecting female (sometimes the male is unaware he’s doing it) whereby he thinks that if he’s friends with her long enough eventually she’ll date him or sleep with him. This is how boys and men unwittingly put themselves in the “friend zone” - more times than not it’s this scenario that’s occurring and not that a girl/woman is “stringing him along”. All of this is of course occurring within the patriarchal conditioning that encourages boys to see each other as competition, to not be vulnerable with one another for fear of looking weak or “feminine”, and this leads to many boys/men having gaming/drinking/sports buddies but not solid men that are in their corner.
I personally am part of a brotherhood of men called the Uncivilized Nation which is dedicated to men supporting other men’s growth. There are thankfully more men’s groups in the world just a few years ago when I started doing this work but one should definitely vet the group to ensure it’s not a white supremaciast/hate group etc. General advice for men looking for male friends is to go on Meetup and attend events they would do or like to try: hiking groups, brewery tastings, etc. The idea is to get active with other men doing the things you already like doing or want to learn to do better.
I thought some readers might appreciate hearing about a conversation I had last month which reflects the chasm between men and women to address patriarchy. At my work, a middle aged white male has recently come to realise how pervasive and destructive sexism is. He has been sending me a few links about how the IT (Information Technology) culture is sexist (I’m not sure why he sent them to me). He tells me how it is important for women to show men the path to fix sexism, and he says that women need to design IT to eliminate sexism. He says he doesn’t know what he can do to help in his corner of the world. He is earnest, concerned, awakened to some of the issues.
I am in my late 50s. I tell him that I don’t need further education thank you, I am well aware of the sexism in IT. I say that these links might be useful for the men in our office though, and I tell him that I’m glad he is learning more about the situation. I tell him why men actually need to be a big part of the solution, that women can't make the changes alone, and I give him concrete ideas about how he can progress these ideas in our own office. For instance, he can show one of the videos that he sent me at a staff meeting, and then lead a discussion with staff about how we can address these issues. He tells me he better get permission first from the executive. I am more senior than this man is: I know that he does not need to get permission, and I remind him so.
This conversation happened via an online chat. At this point, he comes to my desk to stress that he is on the side of women, but unfortunately, he’s not willing to "make waves" himself because he knows it will "fall flat" with his peers. He actually asked me - exhorted me - to "fight the fight" instead. And I told him I’ve been fighting for decades and I’m exhausted. I tell him I fought when I was in a much weaker position than he currently is, that my career took big setbacks because of my advocacy, and said that that he wouldn’t be risking very much at all by speaking up.
Also, he stood so close to me (I was seated at my desk) that I was squashed in place with no freedom to move and had to crick my neck to talk to him.
My heart was so heavy after this interaction. He thinks he’s one of the good guys. Yet there is so much further for him to go.
Oh, a man mansplaining misogyny!
I experience the same - men planting on me what I need to do to fix things. People like Scott Gallaway would have no idea that women are the ones who are, indeed, expected to fix their problems...as well as men's problems.
The example you give reminds me how men will also on pass the making of the coffee at meetings to women etc. An extraordinary ability to pass over anything that makes them feel uncomfortable.
It is all so....galling. Because it's a reinforcing Catch22
Thanks for sharing this story Jude.
It appears to be common (in my experience) for 50+ guys to seek “reward” for possessing/advocating a feminist attitude. They are happy to talk the talk but not walk it *sigh*. I definitely share your exhaustion.
You’re 100% correct Ellen that there are men who will look to gain something for being a feminist. I’ve seen this among my generation and younger (at 38 I’m an older Millennial man). Super frustrating to see and I imagine for women it’s exhausting to have to be vigilant for yet one more aberrant behavior from men.
I know as a 51 yo I really struggle to bring out the gold stars these days. I used to....but, yes, I'm fed up with it all TBH. I was about to "thank you" for voicing up...then realised that his is part of what we're talking about!!!
Sarah, I do appreciate the thought you bring to various issues, but your “gold star” comment here is an example of what makes me (and perhaps men in general) want to either pull back or push back. Don’t you think it’s patronising? As if men were little children that were being educated by their “betters”? Again the unspoken assumption seems to be that somehow women have all the answers and men are the only problem… That shuts down genuine inquiry… Women are flawed just as man are and it would be really encouraging to see an exploration of THAT so that the focus is not just on the overwhelming problematic nature of the fatally flawed males but the other side of the equation too… Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to deny the problems created by patriarchy or the general need of men to become more emotionally mature and integrated… I just don’t believe that this is the whole picture. I think it is extremely important if we want to maintain a genuine inquiry and a balanced and reasonable approach to not buy into (gradually and unconsciously) the paradigm that it’s all men’s fault and women have not contributed to the current issues at all in any way, shape or form. As a thinker, I am sure you appreciate that this kind of simplistic approach is unlikely to be true & valid. perhaps the way to start healing the breach between males and females is to try and take a more balanced approach to finding fault and responsibility… I appreciate this may feel extremely counterintuitive especially if you feel that it’s the woman that have been doing all the work, as they have in many ways for a long time, but I believe it’s helpful to identify the shadow on both sides of the equation…
Oh, how many times I thought men are such cowards ...
Bianca, don’t you think that this is a such a huge generalisation?
I think here she's not generalising, Bianca's made a statement in a relevant place, in context, about how she's felt/thought. It's not a categorical statement of fact.
Yes, I think there is, though I suspect that conflict avoidance applies across gender boundaries. For what it's worth, I've worked with many clients of both genders - some of whom were conflict averse, others sought it out. Temperament, family of origin (where we learn about how to manage conflict and where we often learn to deny our needs and rights and/or are shamed for feeling and expressing healthy anger with the result that we form unhealthy boundaries with others) background, level of self-esteem/confidence etc. - all can play a role. I just don't think that it's helpful to tar everybody of the same gender with the same brush. Consider for example that I as a male posted my first response to you risking conflict - is that the act of a coward? And you responded in a civil, reasoned way, and we have made (a very tentative and limited but healthy) connection... Perhaps there is hope for us all yet:).
Michael, I don't think anyone here is saying "all men". I'm wondering, too, if as a therapist, you tend to see both a larger skew of women who have avoidance issues (than the standard population) and a larger skew of men who do actually face their demons (because they are indeed going to therapy)? I've tried to be careful to flag that my points apply to the dominant picture of men's behaviour in our culture.
I work as an outpatient addiction therapist, interestingly I haven’t identified specific gender traits. I would say though that 70-80% of my clients come from abusive family backgrounds and most of them struggle with healthy conflict & finding their voice.
Perhaps, but I've seen it so many times, even in non-consequential situations, ie at work. I suppose there's a crossover between being confrontation-averse and being a coward?
when my old Italian birding husband and I got married we wrote into our vows, "deconditioning buddies." Both of us were carrying shite patterns and running corrupt codes from our culture and family and we knew we'd have to acknowledge them to not lose sight of the fact that we are (all of us) precious babes of the cosmos, playing at being human and often having absolutely no sense of which way is up. When our ugly gender patterns come up, "me: I'm aging! Oh no! I was supposed to be young and hot forever- how do I bear the weight of living in an ageist pyschodome?" or him: " I have no friends anymore, they're all trauma bound, addicted and doing harm and when I try to make friends they think I'm creeping on them." And having a larger framework that we are all undoing those patterns helps us not confuse the patterns for the human. My teenage son recently did a spat in public school (lasted ten days) and reported that he did not know how to be friends with the male bodied folk there who "only want to fuck, eat or hurt because they're hurting so bad and don't know it." And so, and so. We've grown up in a poison lake, there's poison in our lungs, in our ways of understanding each other. How to create a gentleness around the bridge we must build together to get out of this fucking horrible swim? Thanks, as always, for being a bit of an Atlas, holding up the awareness of the world on your wonderfully inquirefull shoulders.
Deconditioning buddies...now there's a great commitment.
What a beautiful thread for the deep thinkers...
May we be lead to FEEL , not think...
Are men ok?
Are women ok?
Is anyone truly ok?
Keep swimming. X
As someone who has always enjoyed the company of women I am at a loss regarding men who want to generalise about women. Each encounter can be so unique if you listen and ‘see’ women. I had a great mother and many special aunts and great aunts, some without children, I have a daughter that has taught me so much and a woman I have spent more than half my life with.
I can still do all the man shit as well as the next guy.
My advice to men, listen more, talk less, hear what the women in your life say and be conscious of responding to what they ask and you are gunna have some great encounters and a more enjoyable life.
My suggestion Michael don’t be a cliche yourself and don’t be a ferret running down rabbit holes and make each encounter with women mindful so we do our bit to break the cycle and not feed it. This is not a competition this is a chance for a much better, healthier and happier life.
But Tony, do you not also see a HUGE amount of generalisations about men? I think that is one of the core problems - it’s just easier and emotionally more comfortable to project and make it all about the other gender i.e. generalise rather than look at finer nuances…
This is everything I’ve been thinking for months. Not to be reductive, but I’ve seen this play out on dating apps. Two years ago I was using them and having fun. Met some great guys. Mostly all positive. Fast forward to earlier this year and I lasted a day before I deleted everything in defeat. Men and women just really don’t like each other that much. Yet we’re still trying to thrust ourselves together in places like dating apps with a weird disdain and hesitance that makes any form of genuine connection impossible . I’m at a loss.
sadly, I think the apps have accentuated what you observe. In fact, the algorithms they use have been show to do just this. As a result, people are leaving the apps and they are suffering financially.
I think they very much enable and mangnify avoidance
Absolutely. In fact I’d go so far as to say they reward avoidance. There’s very little incentive to work in partnership with each other when we can just jump back into our phones and swipe on someone ‘easier’.
The apps have no financial incentive to provide a service that actually works!
I feel this deeply and resonate with all you say. I lasted three days on the apps just recently. Like you, I used to enjoy them and had good experiences....now it's just awful.
The difference now is wild! Sigh, guess we need to join a run club or something…
Yes! I have been looking at joining some clubs!