Of course there are plenty of good men around. And they do call out the BS but their voice is sometimes not heard because the media would much prefer an Andrew Tate arguing with a Germaine Greer.
Man agrees with woman isn't what some divisive interests want to see as a headline.
Any decent man who appreciates all that women have endured over centuries should listen more than they speak when they get those moments of honesty and good debate from a female.
Ant time my opinions on anything has been shifted it has always been due to a discussion with a female friend, not a male friend.
And whether you believe in quota's in politics or not, it is why parliment has to be a split of the sexes.
Thanks for your thoughts Steve. Interesting re women shifting your opinions...I reckon this could be true for a lot of men (most men I know DO want to know what women think), but I think Zac Seidlers' research re men's personal opinions v how they then act in the community comes into play here. Perhaps it's a case of men needing to ACT OUT their values more...which requires good leaders. Not Andrew Tate. Not Scomo.
Being lucky enough to have a daughter has really emphasised it for myself, so if a male friend is on the Tate rant and i know they have an older daughter i always ask them if she brought home a man with those thoughts and talked to your daughter that way, would you be ok with that?
To have her opinion disrespected?
It usually makes them pause.
But you don't need a daughter to do this, just any number of female friends, colleges, mothers, aunties or nieces etc.
Interestingly most men i know that have that Tate-trait(trademark pending😁) have aweful relationships with their mothers or the same masculine type father. Always talk AT their partners.
I love strong women and i hope with the purpose driven anger now at hand, over the next few generations kids see all the strong women and or mothers that don't cop it, and young boys realise that it's so much more important to find a partner whose thoughts and opinions (even if not agreed upon) you value and cherish, than it is to have a Kardashian on your arm to impress other like minded males.😁
Sarah, I see how it’s confronting for men. After a moment thinking (mistaking) it was my job to smooth-over and make this gender discourse more palatable/people less defensive, lol, I got to your point about men being more likely to listen and talk to men, and hopefully bypass defensiveness (my genuine wish for everyone, actually .. though feeling/acknowledging it can be instructive too).
I’d love to see more men acknowledge patriarchy, as it affects us all. I have a daughter and son (gentle and thoughtful), so I have many concerns on how we proceed.
It's an immediate reaction, hey. Women feel compelled to micromanage/take responsibility for men's emotional responses. I don't think it's helpful or kind to be opportunistic etc with all this...but there is truth here that needs to be owned by ALL OF US before we can all move upwards and onwards.
As an American expat living in Australia for the past 17 years working as a therapist, I'd say it has something to do with shame. Americans seem to contain shame differently as a culture making taboo subjects less threatening. Under the shameless headline is an intellectual challenge that can elevate the raunchy, the filthy, the shame to some level of respectable truth.
Wow, this is a very interesting factor. Are you saying when there is less shame, we can more effectively go straight to the point and get on with things (and accept blowback, and not be deterred by it)?
YES! I see it like the fight reaction to a threat. There is a rather successful defense against shame because shaming is behaviour/social control ...and popular American culture have no problems pushing back on cultural control. It's a variant of the "I don't give a f*%#, challenge accepted" attitude. In other words, less of a psychological inner critic and a greater outer fighter. From an evolutionary viewpoint, the fight instinct gets more rewards. Maybe Australia hasn't had to fight off as much cultural power and control?
It’s this kind of writing that makes me weep with CONNECTION! Thanks Sarah, I’m going to learn some of this off by heart and put it toward my men friends who are struggling and resisting even though I don’t think they know why! Or what!! ❤️✊🏽
Love this write up! We need more of tell it as it is. I always wondered why Aussie news are so shallow an uninformed. Let’s not be afraid of courageous conversations. I honestly think it’s a cultural thing. People hear don’t want to rock the boat. We got the beaches and the pubs to keep us happy right?
More like the year of women reaching an all time low.
An all time high in hypocrisy maybe? Those horrible sexist and racist men? So women.....lets go on a sexist witch hunt to try to cancel some successful, hard working men!
Maybe we can reach the top by playing dirty pool and sabotaging some high achievers! Because there's no other easy, nasty, selfish, dishonest way to do it!
Wow what a bunch of total grubs we have become aye......
Women are digging their own graves and will only have them selves to blame while men come out on top for their strength of character and achieving goals without character destruction of women.
Hey Rach, where do you see women behaving at an all time low, sabotaging high achieving men? I'm not sure many of the examples in The Cut article have been cancelled or prevented from doing what they do in a manner that was unfair or hypocritical, but open to being corrected. I personally think calling something out is very different to cancelling. Criticism is different to silencing.
“Rach11” (?) Could it be that these perceived ‘witch hunts’ and ‘character destructions’ are one form of response to the original witch hunts and character destructions, dealt to women for millenia via Patriarchy?
Could it be that most women are actually very reasonable in their responses to this historic reality, in the same way
reasonable men might see this realty and be un-defensive about it?
Good article. I think that most men and women recognise the floppy man behaviour. Maybe the difference is that women now feel sufficiently supported to call it out.
I’m quite enjoying how the alpha’s are coping with this…throwing the toys out I’d say. The behaviour can be a product of a lack of self awareness, let’s see if being accountable will change that behaviour. ??
It's hard to imagine a self-respecting man getting on board with this. How is it helpful, constructive, or even accurate to demonise a group of people, based on their sex?
2022 could more accurately (in my opinion) be summed up (an example would be this article) as judging others and demonising people based on group characteristic and labels: ie "men", "anti-vaxxers", "right-wing extremists", "radical leftists" etc. As soon as we label people, we dehumanise them. This then justifies inhumane actions, such as what we did this year: locking people out of society, infringing upon fundamental rights and and prohibiting people from earning a livelihood (vaccine mandates)
I'm concerned where this kind of "othering" could lead in the future.
We may belong to various groups, but we are individuals first. Why don't we judge people based on their merits, rather than group characteristics? If there's inappropriate behaviour, then call out the behaviour. If the inappropriate behaviour is "increasing the amount of love in the world" (Lex Fridman") then i'm really confused about what the problem actually is. Is the goal to have more hate and division, rather than love and unity? Or is it a problem simply because it's expressed by a man?
I, for one, am proud of being a man. Masculinity is natural, necessary and an awesome thing for the world, just as femininity is.
We all may need help with growing and maturing into healthy human beings, and the best way to do this is to fully integrate (rather than deny or condemn) all aspects of ourselves including our masculine and feminine aspects, and embrace the gifts of both.
Here's to a future with more unity than division, more love than hate, more piercing through the veil and seeing the human being at the centre.
Matthew, I agree - there is too much demonising and too many categories. At the same time, there is an issue here that we need to look at squarely. We need to be able to be agile and discerning with how we call out behaviours and trends. And we need to be able to hold multitudes. Lex, I think, means well. He strikes me as a sweet guy. AND, ALSO, he and his ilk have a problematic habit of going into "Guru mode" where they both define the problems and put themselves forward as the "fix", the messiah, which takes us all back to the start of the problem. Indeed, the problem Lex et al used to call out when they first started out podcasting etc. I love men, more than half my friends are men, I adore masculinity. AND i understand why it's suffering. AND men need to step up and own the issues going on around the place. It's all true. Not either/or.
But what issue must we men step up and own? What issue must i, as a man, step up and own? All wrong-doings by other men? I'm also an Australian, must i own all wrong-doings by other Australians? I'm also a human, must i own all wrong-doings by other humans?
Perhaps from a spiritual perspective, if we are all one, then on some level i am responsible for others actions - as they are me.
How about, in the first instance, i step up and own my own short-comings and wrong-doings as an individual?
When you say you love men and adore masculinity, that's where i feel it.
It's like a man saying he loves women and adores femininity.
That's a different kind of conversation and orientation.
Hey Matt, big thanks for your considered and reflective responses. To answer...and it's a question a few of my male mates have asked since reading this...it's, in some ways, not for a woman to set out. The point is, this needs to be an inspired mens project. Young men need role modelling. But as you're asking, I'd suggest it's owning your part in fixing the issue. In being an awesome man who doesn't just sit on the sidelines with good values (internally) but who contributes to re-educating culture (as per Zac Seidler Perception Gap).
I absolutely agree that young men need role modelling / role models. In a time where there's so much negative messaging about being a man (such as this article), it's no wonder that the likes of Jordan peterson, Joe rogan, lex fridman etc are so popular. They let young men know its ok to be a man. To get their shit together, assume responsibility and be the greatest benefit possible to those around them.
I will continue to seek to live my life with integrity, embody and manifest my core values, and contribute to the conversation in such a way as to say that we need MORE healthy masculine expression in our world, not less. AND more healthy feminine expression in our world.
The solution to the future is not feminine. It's not masculine. It's both!
A society (like ours) that enables equal opportunity is what we need. Seeking to engineer equal outcomes (quotas), on the other hand, is both impossible and detrimental.
If I read an article demonising women, I'd equally push back against it.
I think you're awesome Sarah. Intelligent, deeply caring, compassionate and passionate.
I'm leaving this conversation curious about how the views expressed in this article (typically coming from the left) with be reconciled with those on the right. It'll be an absolute revolution when we transcend the right vs left dichotomy.
Your questions show that your chief concern is avoiding blame for things other men, Australians and humans have done. What the article is asking you to do is put aside your ego and contribute to a collective effort to combat misogyny, among other things. It’s hyper-defensive to assume that stepping up to address an issue is equivalent to accepting blame for that issue having arisen. All you’re being asked to do is CONTRIBUTE 🤯
I utterly agree with you that othering is destructive. Would you agree that it’s precisely what’s happened to women throughout history? I also agree we are all individuals, and that if this attitude had included women (and minorities) through time, we be in a more balanced world by now.
I absolutely agree that othering has happened throughout history, and has happened towards women. Terrible things have happened towards everyone in a multitude of different ways. I don't see the solution to othering, as being more othering. Or the solution to abuse, more abuse. Or the solution to sexism, more sexism (ie quotas that specifically preference one sex at the exclusion of the other).
As Ghandi said, "an eye for an eye leaves the world blind". If we want more equality, more respect, more love, why not practise it? There is no way to peace, peace is the way!
I agree Sarah, calling out problematic realities is not othering. I actually believe in calling out problematic realities, or simply calling out realities. I'm actually not advocating against that, which is why i said call out inappropriate behaviour. There just seems to be conflating genuine bad actors (illegal activity) such as Sam Bankman-Fried, with the likes of Lex Fridman for being a "bro" with Elon, or Jordan Peterson for simply resurrecting from his absence.
Just imagine if i saw bad behaviour from a bunch of women, used that as evidence that "women need to step up and own the issue", and wrote an article starting with "Try to name even one good women. You can’t.” Would you find that helpful? Would you appreciate me for saying that?
I think there's definitely some truth that every person can step up to a better version of themselves. As individuals, not as a group.
Call out reality? Absolutely. Call out bad behaviour - or say things as they are? 100%. Label and judge people (project) without reference to any specific behaviour? I just don't think it's helpful.
Women, and anyone in a minority group for that matter, have been told to 'step up and deal with the issue' for a long time. You only have to look at the discourse around domestic violence to see that. I think the point is that the people who hold the least power in society are tired of being the ones who have to do all the reflecting. The world has been structured in a way that the people who hold the most power (which is undoubtedly men, even if it doesn't feel like it on an individual level for many because of issues of class, race, sexuality etc.) have been able to sit back and claim that what suits them is just the status quo. Women, and people of all other identifies who have had their opinions ignored for a long time, are pushing back and placing boundaries to protect themselves. They will no longer do the free labour for other people. I think that is the point- men are being asked to come to the table with something more constructive and inclusive of all needs. Men making themselves the victim in this discourse doesn't do that- it puts the onus of other people to manage men's feelings around this once again.
I would argue that being a mother (and father) is one of the most powerful positions in the world - nurturing and raising the future of humanity. If you want to be a ceo of some company and work 100 hours a week and sacrifice almost everything else in your life, go for it. Nothing is stopping you.
Sarah’s whole article is based on the premise that gender/power imbalances (and intersections with race, age, class) do exist and this is a current manifestation (with criticism of them) we’re observing. You ask some great questions but are they rhetorical, or are you asking me to prove gender discrimination exists and to provide all the data?
I’m not an employer, I’m interested in systemic patterns. I agree with quotas in fields where representation of genders needs to reflect society (eg for elected officials in government), not just for quotas to be applied universally.
‘Every single person deserves the equal right and opportunity to pursue their dreams and fulfil their potential.’ Absolutely. That’s the goal..but discrimination laws exist because people do discriminate.
There’s a definition of privilege that roughly implies: the concept of privilege is invisible to the privileged. (I’m privileged in some areas, but not others, so that’s where my perspective starts, as with all of us).
Criticism of inequality can be harsh but necessary; the group benefitting from privilege is unlikely to call out itself. Quotas in certain areas are necessary (and their very existence creates useful discourse); their aim is structural balance. None of the above is revenge (or a wild pendulum swing to something else) it might be the difficult path to peace.
I'm curious Cass, what group is benefiting from privilege? Men? White men? In what way exactly? Because they hold "positions of power"? What's your definition of power? What's your definition of privilege? What's your definition of equality?
What current structures or laws prohibit anyone from occupying those positions? Discrimination is against the law....
Every single person deserves the equal right and opportunity to pursue their dreams and fulfill their potential. We actually live in a soceity that has laws that allow each person the freedom to do that. If we implement quotas, however, that means that the person who gets the position is in all probability not the most competent.
I run a business with only female employees. I recently interviewed about 12 people for 1 position, all were women except 1. If i had of chosen the man for equality purposes (equality of outcome), i would not have chosen the most competent. I went with the most competent, and the best fit, not because they were a woman, but because of their merits and who they are as a person.
If i had to implement quotas, my business would definitely have suffered.
How does your business serve Matthew? What did you hire a woman to do that the male candidate couldn’t have done as well? I’m sorry but your discourse screams let’s brush history under the carpet so I don’t have to sacrifice one bit of comfort. A crafty patriarchal diatribe is one where buzz themes are appropriated, sanctimony infiltrates and condescension goes for the home run.
Hi Melissa, would you mind quoting what I wrote that "screams let's brush history under the carpet so I don't have to sacrifice one bit of comfort"? Feedback would help me learn, because that's definitely not what I intended to communicate.
How does my business serve? Every business serves, that's the nature of business. The position was a physical skill task that anyone can learn, but the probability that the BEST person was a women was very high because more than 90% of interviewees were women.
This article is written in a highly subjective manner, presenting opinion as facts, and appears to take a critical and derogatory stance towards men and their behavior over the past year. It lists several examples of men who have acted in ways the author deems to be “obnoxious” or “flaccid.”
In terms of freedom of speech, the author is certainly exercising their right to express their opinions, even if those opinions are negative, derogatory or critical. However, it could be argued that the blanket condemnation of men as a group is a form of discrimination and could contribute to further division and harm.
In terms of cognitive distortions, the article displays the following:
All-or-nothing thinking: The article makes sweeping generalizations about men, implying that all men are “floppy” and lacking in some way. For example, the opening sentence, “Try to name even one good man. You can’t,” assumes that it is impossible to find a single man who is not flawed.
Overgeneralization: The article lists several examples of men who have acted in ways the author deems to be problematic, but presents these examples as representative of all men. This is a form of overgeneralization, as it assumes that the behaviors of a few individuals are representative of an entire group.
The article also displays a victim orientation, as the author presents themselves as a victim of the actions of men. For example, the statement “I’m not sure anyone in Australia could/would run that headline and that first line. I’m aware that in my reproducing it here, I will be slammed for even putting it up for discussion” suggests that the author believes they will be punished for expressing their opinion. This perspective perpetuates a victim mentality and can lead to a sense of helplessness and powerlessness.
Sarah - unrelated to my other comments here.. You’ve mentioned that you relate well to men/the masculine. If you’d indulge my curiosity - do you think it’s related to having several male siblings and/or living on a farm? I grew up with a sister, mother, and a father with no interests in (what might be considered) ‘masculine’ areas. No casual family wrestling (!), sports or farm work, though I grew up loving bushwalking, climbing, x-country skiing, during my 80s/90s schooling in Canberra. I’ve always admired how you engage with strangers on your solo travels (even if it doesn’t always come naturally) and I’ll admit -respectfully- to wondering if physical height gives you more confidence with men (and anyone really). Sorry if this is weird to ask. I’m not really short in height, so I’m thinking it’s more my upbringing/personality that I don’t relate to outwardly ‘masculine’ energies naturally.
Sarah, have you read "If Women Rose Rooted"?. I'm reading it now in COVID iso, and it speaks to the voice of women you're reflecting here. I love how Sharon Blackie is able to show the reader that the answer does not lie in shaming men, making redundant their warrior "masculine" role but in valuing both the masculine and feminine (my words). She argues the key to re-generating our planet is re-instating the feminine voice. You would love this book.
Of course there are plenty of good men around. And they do call out the BS but their voice is sometimes not heard because the media would much prefer an Andrew Tate arguing with a Germaine Greer.
Man agrees with woman isn't what some divisive interests want to see as a headline.
Any decent man who appreciates all that women have endured over centuries should listen more than they speak when they get those moments of honesty and good debate from a female.
Ant time my opinions on anything has been shifted it has always been due to a discussion with a female friend, not a male friend.
And whether you believe in quota's in politics or not, it is why parliment has to be a split of the sexes.
Agree Scomo is in a class of his own.
My message to all the men you mention is simple.
Get over yourselves.
Look in the mirror and repeat;
"Make 2023 NOT about me".
Thanks for your thoughts Steve. Interesting re women shifting your opinions...I reckon this could be true for a lot of men (most men I know DO want to know what women think), but I think Zac Seidlers' research re men's personal opinions v how they then act in the community comes into play here. Perhaps it's a case of men needing to ACT OUT their values more...which requires good leaders. Not Andrew Tate. Not Scomo.
Agree 100% Sarah.
Being lucky enough to have a daughter has really emphasised it for myself, so if a male friend is on the Tate rant and i know they have an older daughter i always ask them if she brought home a man with those thoughts and talked to your daughter that way, would you be ok with that?
To have her opinion disrespected?
It usually makes them pause.
But you don't need a daughter to do this, just any number of female friends, colleges, mothers, aunties or nieces etc.
Interestingly most men i know that have that Tate-trait(trademark pending😁) have aweful relationships with their mothers or the same masculine type father. Always talk AT their partners.
I love strong women and i hope with the purpose driven anger now at hand, over the next few generations kids see all the strong women and or mothers that don't cop it, and young boys realise that it's so much more important to find a partner whose thoughts and opinions (even if not agreed upon) you value and cherish, than it is to have a Kardashian on your arm to impress other like minded males.😁
Sarah, I see how it’s confronting for men. After a moment thinking (mistaking) it was my job to smooth-over and make this gender discourse more palatable/people less defensive, lol, I got to your point about men being more likely to listen and talk to men, and hopefully bypass defensiveness (my genuine wish for everyone, actually .. though feeling/acknowledging it can be instructive too).
I’d love to see more men acknowledge patriarchy, as it affects us all. I have a daughter and son (gentle and thoughtful), so I have many concerns on how we proceed.
It's an immediate reaction, hey. Women feel compelled to micromanage/take responsibility for men's emotional responses. I don't think it's helpful or kind to be opportunistic etc with all this...but there is truth here that needs to be owned by ALL OF US before we can all move upwards and onwards.
As an American expat living in Australia for the past 17 years working as a therapist, I'd say it has something to do with shame. Americans seem to contain shame differently as a culture making taboo subjects less threatening. Under the shameless headline is an intellectual challenge that can elevate the raunchy, the filthy, the shame to some level of respectable truth.
Wow, this is a very interesting factor. Are you saying when there is less shame, we can more effectively go straight to the point and get on with things (and accept blowback, and not be deterred by it)?
YES! I see it like the fight reaction to a threat. There is a rather successful defense against shame because shaming is behaviour/social control ...and popular American culture have no problems pushing back on cultural control. It's a variant of the "I don't give a f*%#, challenge accepted" attitude. In other words, less of a psychological inner critic and a greater outer fighter. From an evolutionary viewpoint, the fight instinct gets more rewards. Maybe Australia hasn't had to fight off as much cultural power and control?
Been sharing this theory about the place...so interesting to explore. Thank you for fleshing it out.
Thank you Sarah, appreciate the opportunity and your work 🙏
It’s this kind of writing that makes me weep with CONNECTION! Thanks Sarah, I’m going to learn some of this off by heart and put it toward my men friends who are struggling and resisting even though I don’t think they know why! Or what!! ❤️✊🏽
I'd love more men to read this...and do invite them to chime in. I want to hear where they are at.
Love this write up! We need more of tell it as it is. I always wondered why Aussie news are so shallow an uninformed. Let’s not be afraid of courageous conversations. I honestly think it’s a cultural thing. People hear don’t want to rock the boat. We got the beaches and the pubs to keep us happy right?
But when the beaches go...?
More like the year of women reaching an all time low.
An all time high in hypocrisy maybe? Those horrible sexist and racist men? So women.....lets go on a sexist witch hunt to try to cancel some successful, hard working men!
Maybe we can reach the top by playing dirty pool and sabotaging some high achievers! Because there's no other easy, nasty, selfish, dishonest way to do it!
Wow what a bunch of total grubs we have become aye......
Women are digging their own graves and will only have them selves to blame while men come out on top for their strength of character and achieving goals without character destruction of women.
Hey Rach, where do you see women behaving at an all time low, sabotaging high achieving men? I'm not sure many of the examples in The Cut article have been cancelled or prevented from doing what they do in a manner that was unfair or hypocritical, but open to being corrected. I personally think calling something out is very different to cancelling. Criticism is different to silencing.
“Rach11” (?) Could it be that these perceived ‘witch hunts’ and ‘character destructions’ are one form of response to the original witch hunts and character destructions, dealt to women for millenia via Patriarchy?
Could it be that most women are actually very reasonable in their responses to this historic reality, in the same way
reasonable men might see this realty and be un-defensive about it?
Good article. I think that most men and women recognise the floppy man behaviour. Maybe the difference is that women now feel sufficiently supported to call it out.
I’m quite enjoying how the alpha’s are coping with this…throwing the toys out I’d say. The behaviour can be a product of a lack of self awareness, let’s see if being accountable will change that behaviour. ??
I use that phrase a bit - throwing the toys out. Which prompts both compassion and "guys, step up" in me.
Yes. Point taken. I have settled for being part of the commentary, not particularly helpful. I can do better
F*ck, this is music to my ears.
What is throwing the toys out?
😀It is Australian slang for having a childish temper tantrum. You will see them a lot on social media!
It's hard to imagine a self-respecting man getting on board with this. How is it helpful, constructive, or even accurate to demonise a group of people, based on their sex?
2022 could more accurately (in my opinion) be summed up (an example would be this article) as judging others and demonising people based on group characteristic and labels: ie "men", "anti-vaxxers", "right-wing extremists", "radical leftists" etc. As soon as we label people, we dehumanise them. This then justifies inhumane actions, such as what we did this year: locking people out of society, infringing upon fundamental rights and and prohibiting people from earning a livelihood (vaccine mandates)
I'm concerned where this kind of "othering" could lead in the future.
We may belong to various groups, but we are individuals first. Why don't we judge people based on their merits, rather than group characteristics? If there's inappropriate behaviour, then call out the behaviour. If the inappropriate behaviour is "increasing the amount of love in the world" (Lex Fridman") then i'm really confused about what the problem actually is. Is the goal to have more hate and division, rather than love and unity? Or is it a problem simply because it's expressed by a man?
I, for one, am proud of being a man. Masculinity is natural, necessary and an awesome thing for the world, just as femininity is.
We all may need help with growing and maturing into healthy human beings, and the best way to do this is to fully integrate (rather than deny or condemn) all aspects of ourselves including our masculine and feminine aspects, and embrace the gifts of both.
Here's to a future with more unity than division, more love than hate, more piercing through the veil and seeing the human being at the centre.
Matthew, I agree - there is too much demonising and too many categories. At the same time, there is an issue here that we need to look at squarely. We need to be able to be agile and discerning with how we call out behaviours and trends. And we need to be able to hold multitudes. Lex, I think, means well. He strikes me as a sweet guy. AND, ALSO, he and his ilk have a problematic habit of going into "Guru mode" where they both define the problems and put themselves forward as the "fix", the messiah, which takes us all back to the start of the problem. Indeed, the problem Lex et al used to call out when they first started out podcasting etc. I love men, more than half my friends are men, I adore masculinity. AND i understand why it's suffering. AND men need to step up and own the issues going on around the place. It's all true. Not either/or.
Yes it's all true, it's not either/or.
But what issue must we men step up and own? What issue must i, as a man, step up and own? All wrong-doings by other men? I'm also an Australian, must i own all wrong-doings by other Australians? I'm also a human, must i own all wrong-doings by other humans?
Perhaps from a spiritual perspective, if we are all one, then on some level i am responsible for others actions - as they are me.
How about, in the first instance, i step up and own my own short-comings and wrong-doings as an individual?
When you say you love men and adore masculinity, that's where i feel it.
It's like a man saying he loves women and adores femininity.
That's a different kind of conversation and orientation.
Imagine a world with more of that.
Hey Matt, big thanks for your considered and reflective responses. To answer...and it's a question a few of my male mates have asked since reading this...it's, in some ways, not for a woman to set out. The point is, this needs to be an inspired mens project. Young men need role modelling. But as you're asking, I'd suggest it's owning your part in fixing the issue. In being an awesome man who doesn't just sit on the sidelines with good values (internally) but who contributes to re-educating culture (as per Zac Seidler Perception Gap).
I absolutely agree that young men need role modelling / role models. In a time where there's so much negative messaging about being a man (such as this article), it's no wonder that the likes of Jordan peterson, Joe rogan, lex fridman etc are so popular. They let young men know its ok to be a man. To get their shit together, assume responsibility and be the greatest benefit possible to those around them.
I will continue to seek to live my life with integrity, embody and manifest my core values, and contribute to the conversation in such a way as to say that we need MORE healthy masculine expression in our world, not less. AND more healthy feminine expression in our world.
The solution to the future is not feminine. It's not masculine. It's both!
A society (like ours) that enables equal opportunity is what we need. Seeking to engineer equal outcomes (quotas), on the other hand, is both impossible and detrimental.
If I read an article demonising women, I'd equally push back against it.
I think you're awesome Sarah. Intelligent, deeply caring, compassionate and passionate.
I'm leaving this conversation curious about how the views expressed in this article (typically coming from the left) with be reconciled with those on the right. It'll be an absolute revolution when we transcend the right vs left dichotomy.
Your questions show that your chief concern is avoiding blame for things other men, Australians and humans have done. What the article is asking you to do is put aside your ego and contribute to a collective effort to combat misogyny, among other things. It’s hyper-defensive to assume that stepping up to address an issue is equivalent to accepting blame for that issue having arisen. All you’re being asked to do is CONTRIBUTE 🤯
My chief concern is treating one another with greater compassion, dignity and respect. I'm sorry how you (mis)interpreted my comments.
I utterly agree with you that othering is destructive. Would you agree that it’s precisely what’s happened to women throughout history? I also agree we are all individuals, and that if this attitude had included women (and minorities) through time, we be in a more balanced world by now.
I absolutely agree that othering has happened throughout history, and has happened towards women. Terrible things have happened towards everyone in a multitude of different ways. I don't see the solution to othering, as being more othering. Or the solution to abuse, more abuse. Or the solution to sexism, more sexism (ie quotas that specifically preference one sex at the exclusion of the other).
As Ghandi said, "an eye for an eye leaves the world blind". If we want more equality, more respect, more love, why not practise it? There is no way to peace, peace is the way!
Is calling out problematic realities always othering? I'm not disagreeing with your points, I'm posing that there can be many things going on here.
I agree Sarah, calling out problematic realities is not othering. I actually believe in calling out problematic realities, or simply calling out realities. I'm actually not advocating against that, which is why i said call out inappropriate behaviour. There just seems to be conflating genuine bad actors (illegal activity) such as Sam Bankman-Fried, with the likes of Lex Fridman for being a "bro" with Elon, or Jordan Peterson for simply resurrecting from his absence.
Just imagine if i saw bad behaviour from a bunch of women, used that as evidence that "women need to step up and own the issue", and wrote an article starting with "Try to name even one good women. You can’t.” Would you find that helpful? Would you appreciate me for saying that?
I think there's definitely some truth that every person can step up to a better version of themselves. As individuals, not as a group.
Call out reality? Absolutely. Call out bad behaviour - or say things as they are? 100%. Label and judge people (project) without reference to any specific behaviour? I just don't think it's helpful.
Women, and anyone in a minority group for that matter, have been told to 'step up and deal with the issue' for a long time. You only have to look at the discourse around domestic violence to see that. I think the point is that the people who hold the least power in society are tired of being the ones who have to do all the reflecting. The world has been structured in a way that the people who hold the most power (which is undoubtedly men, even if it doesn't feel like it on an individual level for many because of issues of class, race, sexuality etc.) have been able to sit back and claim that what suits them is just the status quo. Women, and people of all other identifies who have had their opinions ignored for a long time, are pushing back and placing boundaries to protect themselves. They will no longer do the free labour for other people. I think that is the point- men are being asked to come to the table with something more constructive and inclusive of all needs. Men making themselves the victim in this discourse doesn't do that- it puts the onus of other people to manage men's feelings around this once again.
I would argue that being a mother (and father) is one of the most powerful positions in the world - nurturing and raising the future of humanity. If you want to be a ceo of some company and work 100 hours a week and sacrifice almost everything else in your life, go for it. Nothing is stopping you.
Sarah’s whole article is based on the premise that gender/power imbalances (and intersections with race, age, class) do exist and this is a current manifestation (with criticism of them) we’re observing. You ask some great questions but are they rhetorical, or are you asking me to prove gender discrimination exists and to provide all the data?
I’m not an employer, I’m interested in systemic patterns. I agree with quotas in fields where representation of genders needs to reflect society (eg for elected officials in government), not just for quotas to be applied universally.
‘Every single person deserves the equal right and opportunity to pursue their dreams and fulfil their potential.’ Absolutely. That’s the goal..but discrimination laws exist because people do discriminate.
There’s a definition of privilege that roughly implies: the concept of privilege is invisible to the privileged. (I’m privileged in some areas, but not others, so that’s where my perspective starts, as with all of us).
Criticism of inequality can be harsh but necessary; the group benefitting from privilege is unlikely to call out itself. Quotas in certain areas are necessary (and their very existence creates useful discourse); their aim is structural balance. None of the above is revenge (or a wild pendulum swing to something else) it might be the difficult path to peace.
I'm curious Cass, what group is benefiting from privilege? Men? White men? In what way exactly? Because they hold "positions of power"? What's your definition of power? What's your definition of privilege? What's your definition of equality?
What current structures or laws prohibit anyone from occupying those positions? Discrimination is against the law....
Every single person deserves the equal right and opportunity to pursue their dreams and fulfill their potential. We actually live in a soceity that has laws that allow each person the freedom to do that. If we implement quotas, however, that means that the person who gets the position is in all probability not the most competent.
I run a business with only female employees. I recently interviewed about 12 people for 1 position, all were women except 1. If i had of chosen the man for equality purposes (equality of outcome), i would not have chosen the most competent. I went with the most competent, and the best fit, not because they were a woman, but because of their merits and who they are as a person.
If i had to implement quotas, my business would definitely have suffered.
How does your business serve Matthew? What did you hire a woman to do that the male candidate couldn’t have done as well? I’m sorry but your discourse screams let’s brush history under the carpet so I don’t have to sacrifice one bit of comfort. A crafty patriarchal diatribe is one where buzz themes are appropriated, sanctimony infiltrates and condescension goes for the home run.
Hi Melissa, would you mind quoting what I wrote that "screams let's brush history under the carpet so I don't have to sacrifice one bit of comfort"? Feedback would help me learn, because that's definitely not what I intended to communicate.
How does my business serve? Every business serves, that's the nature of business. The position was a physical skill task that anyone can learn, but the probability that the BEST person was a women was very high because more than 90% of interviewees were women.
This article is written in a highly subjective manner, presenting opinion as facts, and appears to take a critical and derogatory stance towards men and their behavior over the past year. It lists several examples of men who have acted in ways the author deems to be “obnoxious” or “flaccid.”
In terms of freedom of speech, the author is certainly exercising their right to express their opinions, even if those opinions are negative, derogatory or critical. However, it could be argued that the blanket condemnation of men as a group is a form of discrimination and could contribute to further division and harm.
In terms of cognitive distortions, the article displays the following:
All-or-nothing thinking: The article makes sweeping generalizations about men, implying that all men are “floppy” and lacking in some way. For example, the opening sentence, “Try to name even one good man. You can’t,” assumes that it is impossible to find a single man who is not flawed.
Overgeneralization: The article lists several examples of men who have acted in ways the author deems to be problematic, but presents these examples as representative of all men. This is a form of overgeneralization, as it assumes that the behaviors of a few individuals are representative of an entire group.
The article also displays a victim orientation, as the author presents themselves as a victim of the actions of men. For example, the statement “I’m not sure anyone in Australia could/would run that headline and that first line. I’m aware that in my reproducing it here, I will be slammed for even putting it up for discussion” suggests that the author believes they will be punished for expressing their opinion. This perspective perpetuates a victim mentality and can lead to a sense of helplessness and powerlessness.
Sarah - unrelated to my other comments here.. You’ve mentioned that you relate well to men/the masculine. If you’d indulge my curiosity - do you think it’s related to having several male siblings and/or living on a farm? I grew up with a sister, mother, and a father with no interests in (what might be considered) ‘masculine’ areas. No casual family wrestling (!), sports or farm work, though I grew up loving bushwalking, climbing, x-country skiing, during my 80s/90s schooling in Canberra. I’ve always admired how you engage with strangers on your solo travels (even if it doesn’t always come naturally) and I’ll admit -respectfully- to wondering if physical height gives you more confidence with men (and anyone really). Sorry if this is weird to ask. I’m not really short in height, so I’m thinking it’s more my upbringing/personality that I don’t relate to outwardly ‘masculine’ energies naturally.
Sarah, have you read "If Women Rose Rooted"?. I'm reading it now in COVID iso, and it speaks to the voice of women you're reflecting here. I love how Sharon Blackie is able to show the reader that the answer does not lie in shaming men, making redundant their warrior "masculine" role but in valuing both the masculine and feminine (my words). She argues the key to re-generating our planet is re-instating the feminine voice. You would love this book.