I have made one of the most treasured friendships I've ever had in this comment section, oddly enough. I think we've been chatting on Signal and Zoom for about a year. We live too far away from one another to plan an easy visit, but close enough that a road trip might be in the future. My sense is that friendship love, agape love in Koine Greek, is the richest and deepest of all the loves, and the love that exists in this friendship has spilled over to create new friendships. It's like a life force from the Source that has sprung up like a geyser out of this meeting of hearts and minds between us, and has made my life richer, my marriage deeper, my mothering more whole. Love you, Nat!
Awww, love that and 1000% agree on agape! I met an industry peer in the US over IG during COVID and she’s become a dear friend. We’ve never met in person but I deeply trust her she and on dark days she helps me believe in humanity again x
The trad wife thing is quite scary, if I ever come across a video or article about it I find myself watching with morbid fascination.
I am still a fan of the village idea of a family- like a border less country where kids and people wander wherever they need to. Finding people with the skills or experience for that moment. No judgements, no ‘getting ahead’ of your neighbours, just everyone pitching in together.
Probably a bit utopian but it’s the model that feels the best in the times we are in and that are coming.
What is morbid about a trad wife? Is a trad husband equally morbid? Include in any reply what trad means. Traditional? Include what a traditional marriage is lest I remain ignorant.
A great canter through another central topic of our times. Thank you Sarah.
Two observations:
- Romanticism was always candy for the brain, but post war I think that Hollywood and Disney ramped this up so that it became part of all mainstream entertainment therefore further cementing this into our world view. With US media being pushed everywhere and held up as what you aspired to, it touched many lives. You had to work hard to find and see different ways of seeing the world in the West.
- However, I feel that much of what you describe is more prominent in white Anglo Saxon culture countries. Having grown up in Greece and Italy and spent time in the Far East, even today the family culture there remains different. On school night when the weather is good, the plateia (village square) in Voula south of Athens will be full of families having dinner with each other, people promenading and chatting to catch up, kids playing haphazardly with balls, bikes etc until nearly midnight. It remains a larger family, a village. They continue to have a different worldview. I see that many of these cultures have enough of their own culture and norms, to not have to dip too deeply into the menu that is being pushed by the US and perhaps this keeps them in a better state. Although the youth are not always excited to stick to traditions, and thus they remain more susceptible to being ensnared in the way you describe - but at least, there is still a safety net that can catch them - for now.
When my children were very young, and I was barely coping (climbing the walls from boredom, isolation and exhaustion), I came across co-housing and thought how brilliant it would be to live in this kind of 'mini-village', have people to share child-rearing, cooking/eating/gardening etc with. I think I knew instinctively it would be a healthier way to live for us all; I even visited half a dozen in order to write an article about co-housing.
What stopped me taking the leap? I think it was the system you describe Sarah. In order to buy into a scheme we'd have had to be willing to step off the mortgage ladder and share our financial resources in order to help subsidise those members of the scheme who didn't have well-paid professional jobs like us (but were of course contributing at least the equivalent in skills and energy). Those things were so far beyond the way I'd been brought up to 'do life'.
As a 30-something year old I lacked the courage I found later in life (I now share my home with a partner, my sister and an extended tribe of visiting family and friends). It might have been easier to be brave if I'd seen more people doing it, if alternative ways of living and grouping had been more in evidence and there hadn't been anxious friends telling me 'once you step off the ladder you'll never get back on'. And perhaps if my heart had been a bit more open.
A lifeline when I had 2 small children was a weekly lunch at the local church where the older women made soup and bread and cuddled and played with the babies/children while the mothers ate and chatted. The older women then returned the children and cleared up. All those involved often said it was the best part of the week.
Sarah - this is another excellent post. I literally just said to a girlfriend yesterday who also has a baby and a male partner who isn't showing up as we need them to about the idea of finding a supportive single mum commune to move into and raise our kids there together. If such a place exists nearby! I think I read of one in Brazil.
I was single for most of my adult life until my mid 30's when I met my partner and had a baby. I absolutely felt like an outlier to society in the suburbia of regional NSW. I felt it was different as a single person in London, living with other expats and people who didn't have families, in terms of people being more inclusive. I always push back against the tone of single people being pitied and the idea (from older generations) that I've been saved against the horror of single-dom by meeting my partner and forming a nuclear family - there are definite benefits to being single!
I guess for me the central issue is what about the kids? How do we raise a functioning boy into an adult male without a daily role model of a father? The idea that my boy would suffer without this is perhaps a myth which needs interrogating. After all, single sex couples can raise boys or girls of the opposite sex and they're all turning out ok? I'd love to hear some great solutions for this!
Thanks RR, I sometimes look back to how families worked before...men were largely out of the picture throughout history. It really was in the mid 20th C that the nuclear family took hold. And then we saw the rise, within a decade or two of single parent homes. So the "idea" of the male parent being present was short-lived
I would join a single mum commune in a heartbeat. The female friends I neglected when I was in a relationship have been an amazing source of support since my separation. This post hit a nerve and has bought up some very conflicting emotions.
Great, provocative post. I think for me the term 'family' has always been socially constructed. It has meant different things in different ages, influenced by the needs of the society. The 'nuclear family' is the most modern version of this, yet the main difference is that it has been influenced more by the economic needs of the society, as opposed to the survival needs of past periods. I think that is why this conversation is needed, as the idea that the 'nuclear family' is the ideal, or what is wanted, or suits most, doesn't fit for many. And those who don't fit, are often shamed or blamed, as if they are somehow defective! We need a version of 'family' that goes back to the needs of the 'humans'. I think we have lost our 'village', and we need a modern variation of that in what is termed 'family'.
My ancestors lived in rural Yorkshire up until the 1700's, in a communal village with family and friends. Fathers were very present in the home as it was the center of their working and family lives. The advent of the industrial revolution stripped the heart out of this 'village'. It is interesting to read of their observations when they went to the larger industrial cities looking for work. They saw people in these cities as sad, depressed, overworked, unhealthy, and the men were never seen by their families.
Our society has shifted expectations on modern fathers to be more present and engaged in child care, for which I am big fan in principle. But the lack of support for modern parents under this new model is seeing many struggle under the strain. Sarah you are right in your connection of this to the male loneliness issue. Modern parents are expected to excel at home (raise geniuses, future sporting stars, etc), have careers, but a complete lack of support, friends and social connection as a result. They need a village!
I agree with all of this. I didn't realise how lonely and isolating being in the nuclear family bubble was until it ended. I wish my children had grown up in the communal village you describe as being single can be quite lonely and isolating as well.
Yes we are busier and more involved in raising children than ever, because we have lost our village. When I say we I of course mean white imperialist cultures. Many Asian families still live in multigenerational households and all members of the family have a role and obligations of caring. It’s actually much cheaper than trying to do it all alone! I wonder what industrial complex it is that convinced us we all need to parent and work independently of unpaid helpers and informal care or else we are failing at adulting?? 😞
bell hooks talks about exactly this, and specifically the erosion of loving community as a way to alienate us all under capitalism, in New Visions of Love ❤️
much to cogitate on Sarah, as always. Margaret Mead Was a very complex character, she was an early “techno optimist” and believed a one world government was the only way to resolve problems.
I am fortunate to be married for 40 years and I still think about who will look after us …
Jody Day , has written about starting an “‘Alterkin” locally for when she ages .
True, and it does give context for space comment. I looked it up as Mead and her husband Bateson have come up in “new world order ‘ articles …that could be because some of what they said fits that narrative or were they part of that movement? The same with the techno stuff 🤔
Like you, Sarah, I am strongly attracted to and discussing ways to create a haven for retired and aging friends to live and rejoice in our lives together in a shared living setting. Not only does this create the village of affection support and fun that we all need - it can also free us for adventures away from home, while those who are there tend to things for a turn... I would love to work with others here to crowd source as much as we can about structuring such projects in clear, positive and equitable ways, to ensure they successfully move from pipedream to grounded reality. I know legal options may differ widely according to where we live (tho that variety also might be something we can build a database on) but the fundamentals of best practices seem as though they may be unchanging (and then of course adjusted by the individuals involved). We SO need these new ways of organizing for emotional/social reasons, and we also know we will need to be living more sustainably and independently as the climate crisis worsens. I'm just putting this forward as a concept - I'm not super techie but could definitely set up a Google drive to serve as a hub for info sharing. Even if we just all dump the resources we have into one repository, it would be a step forward from random search - and the accompanying comments, and possibly discussions, could help us move forward with a sounding board available, instead of in isolation... Anyone interested,? Sarah or others, do you have projects like this in sight already,?
Hey Sarah, I fear that people won't see this comment here (once a post is a few days old, things drop off). If you wanted to pitch your suggestion in a short paragraph, I can add it to the bottom of an upcoming post?
I miss my free, childless friends who live worldwide desperately since having my 5yo, because I just dont have time to do anything but rushed texting with them when we really need phone calls. I feel and see the pressure it puts on me and my husband to be running our little shit show with very limited friendship and help in our immediate community (no more or less than anyone else we know) and i know we both feel trapped and exhausted by the life we chose. I love my little boy painfully hard, of course I do, but the amount we have given up to have him is shocking me afresh all the time. And its not even what's best for him! And yet how do you change things?!
Gosh, what changed since our parents' days? Is it the expectations? I really do notice parents in Latin Europe are not so frazzled...they raise their kids, but don't seem as myopically focused on them...a cultural thing
I have always thought of myself as one of the less myopically focused parents I know. My 5yo is the only one I know of his age who's not in gym lessons/swimming lessons/Portuguese class etc etc.
But maybe the difference is also that I'm turning out novels as well as working and raising a kid. A lot of the more relaxed parents I know are the ones where they are not trying to still achieve specific milestones in their careers and are happy with cruisy part-time work. Or no work.
If you ever have a blaze of insight into why things seem different in other cultures ... plz share 😆
Well, I'd only throw in there that part of the reason French women have a disproportionately long life (according to some commentary) is that the childcare systems here are supportive of working families. Kids start school at 3, they eat their main meal of the day at school (3 courses provided by the school), etc...the cultural differences are systemic.
Your perspective got me curious and thinking yesterday. I started reading a book called French Women Don't Throw Food, by an American former journalist, living in France, about the difference between Anglophone and French attitudes to parenting and marriage with children. A typically publisher led title but a good piece of work nonetheless! It's fascinating, and a good motivator and thought provoker as we are 1 month into bringing our little darling on a 3-month trip that will culminate in Provence and Paris (via a series of very, very small hotel rooms ...)
So thanks for the prompt to go on a journey of discovery -- maybe something will change!
I don't think it's about marriage so much as it is about devotion and letting relationships grow us true instead of the kinds of faux, loosey goosey relationships that all us to hide from growth and be our lowest versions of ourselves. Marriage is a geometry that lends itself to devotion (all those hormones with making kids together, tradition etc) but we are in charge of our devotion, well, our hearts are. For me, deeply committed relationships are greenhouses where I become stronger and greener, more of what I essentially am, less of what I am not. My marriage is a giant greenhouse in my life, but it's not even the most important or interesting one. I think people are often in relationships or communities with some light hope or whimsy, which becomes a fault line the instant the relationship tries to serve to take the people in it deeper, to help them become more. I see really neato idealistic communities, single mom collectives come and go because the folks involved don't actually have the capacity to show up with devotion and clarity of presence that allows those geometries to serve as greenhouses (islands of coherence). For me, polyamory and alternative geometries are a couple of lifetimes down the road. In this time of almost unbelievable transition it's been a balm to have a lovely marriage as an island of coherence that seeks to serve as many as possible. Our home is often filled with resilience projects, people who need help, skill sharing or just the dance and feast stuff we humans really really freaking need. This place (your substack) is built with devotion, Sarah, You hold it beautifully. One of the great greenhouses of my life became possible because of your devotion (sarah) and your devotion (community of dreamers, activists, listeners, makers, doers, Be-ers, star watchers, lovers of life no matter fucking what) via a deep friendship made in theses comments with Maddie. https://substack.com/@peaceparade who holds the doors open to love for every one, when it's not convenient (it never is) and even when her arms tremble (they often do) . The green houses hold us while we calm down enough to remember how to do this. All of this. How to hear our heart's quiet wisdom that absolutely knows the way through.
That video was such a delight! What struck me was just how slowly the presenter spoke. I wonder if this was common for the time. It was hard for me to watch at that speed, but a much needed reminder to slow down.
Yes!!!! No honorable room! My God did that hit me hard in the best possible way! I've been baffling so hard trying to summate and articulate this as a concept and boom here it is! So much to absorb here.This will marinate with me over the next few days for sure! Thank you Sarah for putting this together with such care.
Sarah, I wonder if you’re confounding a few things here. One is the ‘nuclear’ family (loosely, pair coupled adults with children) and the other is how nuclear families relate to each other within a societal context.
While I accept that families may take different forms in different times and cultures (polygamous families for eg), I think it is true to say that, by and large, the nuclear family has been the ordinary family unit in most societies over time. What differs I think is how those family units interact. As you say, in certain Latin and European cultures, parents spend much more time socialising with other families and individuals, whereas in our modern western culture family units tend to be more inward looking. In my view this is all to the good, but I see it not as an issue of intra family relations but more of inter family (and individual) relations.
I’d love to hear if you have found examples in your research of alternative family structures succeeding at scale over time (eg single mother/father collectives or the like)?
Per your question, I think extended families - with grandparents, friends, "aunts" etc in the mix - have worked very well. The nuclear set-up is very aligned with capitalism...which is my point.
Hey Geoff, hmmm I don't think so. The nuclear family is one that specifically doesn't include extended family members and tends to centre the male as the breadwinner - this is a relatively recent phenomenon and is not the "traditional" set-up. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0020
I have made one of the most treasured friendships I've ever had in this comment section, oddly enough. I think we've been chatting on Signal and Zoom for about a year. We live too far away from one another to plan an easy visit, but close enough that a road trip might be in the future. My sense is that friendship love, agape love in Koine Greek, is the richest and deepest of all the loves, and the love that exists in this friendship has spilled over to create new friendships. It's like a life force from the Source that has sprung up like a geyser out of this meeting of hearts and minds between us, and has made my life richer, my marriage deeper, my mothering more whole. Love you, Nat!
https://substack.com/@missnataliemarie?utm_source=global-search
I really, really love this.
aww, sugar bean, what a privilege to be in (this, all, yes) with you. As Peter Pan says, "second star to the right and straight on till morning!"
That is wonderful Madeleine!
Awww, love that and 1000% agree on agape! I met an industry peer in the US over IG during COVID and she’s become a dear friend. We’ve never met in person but I deeply trust her she and on dark days she helps me believe in humanity again x
The trad wife thing is quite scary, if I ever come across a video or article about it I find myself watching with morbid fascination.
I am still a fan of the village idea of a family- like a border less country where kids and people wander wherever they need to. Finding people with the skills or experience for that moment. No judgements, no ‘getting ahead’ of your neighbours, just everyone pitching in together.
Probably a bit utopian but it’s the model that feels the best in the times we are in and that are coming.
I will be so interested to see how the trad wife things winds up in a decade or two...
What is morbid about a trad wife? Is a trad husband equally morbid? Include in any reply what trad means. Traditional? Include what a traditional marriage is lest I remain ignorant.
Good questions, Robert. Perhaps tell us what you think it is?
A great canter through another central topic of our times. Thank you Sarah.
Two observations:
- Romanticism was always candy for the brain, but post war I think that Hollywood and Disney ramped this up so that it became part of all mainstream entertainment therefore further cementing this into our world view. With US media being pushed everywhere and held up as what you aspired to, it touched many lives. You had to work hard to find and see different ways of seeing the world in the West.
- However, I feel that much of what you describe is more prominent in white Anglo Saxon culture countries. Having grown up in Greece and Italy and spent time in the Far East, even today the family culture there remains different. On school night when the weather is good, the plateia (village square) in Voula south of Athens will be full of families having dinner with each other, people promenading and chatting to catch up, kids playing haphazardly with balls, bikes etc until nearly midnight. It remains a larger family, a village. They continue to have a different worldview. I see that many of these cultures have enough of their own culture and norms, to not have to dip too deeply into the menu that is being pushed by the US and perhaps this keeps them in a better state. Although the youth are not always excited to stick to traditions, and thus they remain more susceptible to being ensnared in the way you describe - but at least, there is still a safety net that can catch them - for now.
Ah, yes, the Disney connection - of course it was required to bolster the nuclear family confection.
When my children were very young, and I was barely coping (climbing the walls from boredom, isolation and exhaustion), I came across co-housing and thought how brilliant it would be to live in this kind of 'mini-village', have people to share child-rearing, cooking/eating/gardening etc with. I think I knew instinctively it would be a healthier way to live for us all; I even visited half a dozen in order to write an article about co-housing.
What stopped me taking the leap? I think it was the system you describe Sarah. In order to buy into a scheme we'd have had to be willing to step off the mortgage ladder and share our financial resources in order to help subsidise those members of the scheme who didn't have well-paid professional jobs like us (but were of course contributing at least the equivalent in skills and energy). Those things were so far beyond the way I'd been brought up to 'do life'.
As a 30-something year old I lacked the courage I found later in life (I now share my home with a partner, my sister and an extended tribe of visiting family and friends). It might have been easier to be brave if I'd seen more people doing it, if alternative ways of living and grouping had been more in evidence and there hadn't been anxious friends telling me 'once you step off the ladder you'll never get back on'. And perhaps if my heart had been a bit more open.
A lifeline when I had 2 small children was a weekly lunch at the local church where the older women made soup and bread and cuddled and played with the babies/children while the mothers ate and chatted. The older women then returned the children and cleared up. All those involved often said it was the best part of the week.
Sarah - this is another excellent post. I literally just said to a girlfriend yesterday who also has a baby and a male partner who isn't showing up as we need them to about the idea of finding a supportive single mum commune to move into and raise our kids there together. If such a place exists nearby! I think I read of one in Brazil.
I was single for most of my adult life until my mid 30's when I met my partner and had a baby. I absolutely felt like an outlier to society in the suburbia of regional NSW. I felt it was different as a single person in London, living with other expats and people who didn't have families, in terms of people being more inclusive. I always push back against the tone of single people being pitied and the idea (from older generations) that I've been saved against the horror of single-dom by meeting my partner and forming a nuclear family - there are definite benefits to being single!
I guess for me the central issue is what about the kids? How do we raise a functioning boy into an adult male without a daily role model of a father? The idea that my boy would suffer without this is perhaps a myth which needs interrogating. After all, single sex couples can raise boys or girls of the opposite sex and they're all turning out ok? I'd love to hear some great solutions for this!
Thanks RR, I sometimes look back to how families worked before...men were largely out of the picture throughout history. It really was in the mid 20th C that the nuclear family took hold. And then we saw the rise, within a decade or two of single parent homes. So the "idea" of the male parent being present was short-lived
I would join a single mum commune in a heartbeat. The female friends I neglected when I was in a relationship have been an amazing source of support since my separation. This post hit a nerve and has bought up some very conflicting emotions.
I love that you're aware of the role of your single friends...I was touched to read your comment x
Great, provocative post. I think for me the term 'family' has always been socially constructed. It has meant different things in different ages, influenced by the needs of the society. The 'nuclear family' is the most modern version of this, yet the main difference is that it has been influenced more by the economic needs of the society, as opposed to the survival needs of past periods. I think that is why this conversation is needed, as the idea that the 'nuclear family' is the ideal, or what is wanted, or suits most, doesn't fit for many. And those who don't fit, are often shamed or blamed, as if they are somehow defective! We need a version of 'family' that goes back to the needs of the 'humans'. I think we have lost our 'village', and we need a modern variation of that in what is termed 'family'.
we need to simply wake up to how much of what we deem "normal" is simply a vehicle for capitalist ends
My ancestors lived in rural Yorkshire up until the 1700's, in a communal village with family and friends. Fathers were very present in the home as it was the center of their working and family lives. The advent of the industrial revolution stripped the heart out of this 'village'. It is interesting to read of their observations when they went to the larger industrial cities looking for work. They saw people in these cities as sad, depressed, overworked, unhealthy, and the men were never seen by their families.
Our society has shifted expectations on modern fathers to be more present and engaged in child care, for which I am big fan in principle. But the lack of support for modern parents under this new model is seeing many struggle under the strain. Sarah you are right in your connection of this to the male loneliness issue. Modern parents are expected to excel at home (raise geniuses, future sporting stars, etc), have careers, but a complete lack of support, friends and social connection as a result. They need a village!
I agree with all of this. I didn't realise how lonely and isolating being in the nuclear family bubble was until it ended. I wish my children had grown up in the communal village you describe as being single can be quite lonely and isolating as well.
Yes we are busier and more involved in raising children than ever, because we have lost our village. When I say we I of course mean white imperialist cultures. Many Asian families still live in multigenerational households and all members of the family have a role and obligations of caring. It’s actually much cheaper than trying to do it all alone! I wonder what industrial complex it is that convinced us we all need to parent and work independently of unpaid helpers and informal care or else we are failing at adulting?? 😞
bell hooks talks about exactly this, and specifically the erosion of loving community as a way to alienate us all under capitalism, in New Visions of Love ❤️
ah thanks for reminding me
much to cogitate on Sarah, as always. Margaret Mead Was a very complex character, she was an early “techno optimist” and believed a one world government was the only way to resolve problems.
I am fortunate to be married for 40 years and I still think about who will look after us …
Jody Day , has written about starting an “‘Alterkin” locally for when she ages .
https://open.substack.com/pub/jodyday/p/whos-going-to-be-there-for-me-when?r=a9nqc&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
techno-optimism was almost forgivable back then
it gives context to the space comment
True, and it does give context for space comment. I looked it up as Mead and her husband Bateson have come up in “new world order ‘ articles …that could be because some of what they said fits that narrative or were they part of that movement? The same with the techno stuff 🤔
and their granddaughter is Nora Bateson
Yep, you might know her, I am not sure where she stands in all the techno fascism stuff, I hear different things …
Thanks Susan, for sharing about my Alterkin project (Alternative Kinship Circles)!
Like you, Sarah, I am strongly attracted to and discussing ways to create a haven for retired and aging friends to live and rejoice in our lives together in a shared living setting. Not only does this create the village of affection support and fun that we all need - it can also free us for adventures away from home, while those who are there tend to things for a turn... I would love to work with others here to crowd source as much as we can about structuring such projects in clear, positive and equitable ways, to ensure they successfully move from pipedream to grounded reality. I know legal options may differ widely according to where we live (tho that variety also might be something we can build a database on) but the fundamentals of best practices seem as though they may be unchanging (and then of course adjusted by the individuals involved). We SO need these new ways of organizing for emotional/social reasons, and we also know we will need to be living more sustainably and independently as the climate crisis worsens. I'm just putting this forward as a concept - I'm not super techie but could definitely set up a Google drive to serve as a hub for info sharing. Even if we just all dump the resources we have into one repository, it would be a step forward from random search - and the accompanying comments, and possibly discussions, could help us move forward with a sounding board available, instead of in isolation... Anyone interested,? Sarah or others, do you have projects like this in sight already,?
Hey Sarah, I fear that people won't see this comment here (once a post is a few days old, things drop off). If you wanted to pitch your suggestion in a short paragraph, I can add it to the bottom of an upcoming post?
I miss my free, childless friends who live worldwide desperately since having my 5yo, because I just dont have time to do anything but rushed texting with them when we really need phone calls. I feel and see the pressure it puts on me and my husband to be running our little shit show with very limited friendship and help in our immediate community (no more or less than anyone else we know) and i know we both feel trapped and exhausted by the life we chose. I love my little boy painfully hard, of course I do, but the amount we have given up to have him is shocking me afresh all the time. And its not even what's best for him! And yet how do you change things?!
Gosh, what changed since our parents' days? Is it the expectations? I really do notice parents in Latin Europe are not so frazzled...they raise their kids, but don't seem as myopically focused on them...a cultural thing
I have always thought of myself as one of the less myopically focused parents I know. My 5yo is the only one I know of his age who's not in gym lessons/swimming lessons/Portuguese class etc etc.
But maybe the difference is also that I'm turning out novels as well as working and raising a kid. A lot of the more relaxed parents I know are the ones where they are not trying to still achieve specific milestones in their careers and are happy with cruisy part-time work. Or no work.
If you ever have a blaze of insight into why things seem different in other cultures ... plz share 😆
Well, I'd only throw in there that part of the reason French women have a disproportionately long life (according to some commentary) is that the childcare systems here are supportive of working families. Kids start school at 3, they eat their main meal of the day at school (3 courses provided by the school), etc...the cultural differences are systemic.
Your perspective got me curious and thinking yesterday. I started reading a book called French Women Don't Throw Food, by an American former journalist, living in France, about the difference between Anglophone and French attitudes to parenting and marriage with children. A typically publisher led title but a good piece of work nonetheless! It's fascinating, and a good motivator and thought provoker as we are 1 month into bringing our little darling on a 3-month trip that will culminate in Provence and Paris (via a series of very, very small hotel rooms ...)
So thanks for the prompt to go on a journey of discovery -- maybe something will change!
I forgot to say that she goes into detail about these structural and systemic supports that you mentioned as well!
Ah I'll be interested to see what you think
I don't think it's about marriage so much as it is about devotion and letting relationships grow us true instead of the kinds of faux, loosey goosey relationships that all us to hide from growth and be our lowest versions of ourselves. Marriage is a geometry that lends itself to devotion (all those hormones with making kids together, tradition etc) but we are in charge of our devotion, well, our hearts are. For me, deeply committed relationships are greenhouses where I become stronger and greener, more of what I essentially am, less of what I am not. My marriage is a giant greenhouse in my life, but it's not even the most important or interesting one. I think people are often in relationships or communities with some light hope or whimsy, which becomes a fault line the instant the relationship tries to serve to take the people in it deeper, to help them become more. I see really neato idealistic communities, single mom collectives come and go because the folks involved don't actually have the capacity to show up with devotion and clarity of presence that allows those geometries to serve as greenhouses (islands of coherence). For me, polyamory and alternative geometries are a couple of lifetimes down the road. In this time of almost unbelievable transition it's been a balm to have a lovely marriage as an island of coherence that seeks to serve as many as possible. Our home is often filled with resilience projects, people who need help, skill sharing or just the dance and feast stuff we humans really really freaking need. This place (your substack) is built with devotion, Sarah, You hold it beautifully. One of the great greenhouses of my life became possible because of your devotion (sarah) and your devotion (community of dreamers, activists, listeners, makers, doers, Be-ers, star watchers, lovers of life no matter fucking what) via a deep friendship made in theses comments with Maddie. https://substack.com/@peaceparade who holds the doors open to love for every one, when it's not convenient (it never is) and even when her arms tremble (they often do) . The green houses hold us while we calm down enough to remember how to do this. All of this. How to hear our heart's quiet wisdom that absolutely knows the way through.
That video was such a delight! What struck me was just how slowly the presenter spoke. I wonder if this was common for the time. It was hard for me to watch at that speed, but a much needed reminder to slow down.
me too. along with the way the experts were really free to not heavily caveat their wild, wide statements.
I have heard the Esther Perel quote before, many years ago. I wonder if she is quoting (or paraphrasing) someone else??
Alain de bottons books about sex and love talk along very similar lines
Yes!!!! No honorable room! My God did that hit me hard in the best possible way! I've been baffling so hard trying to summate and articulate this as a concept and boom here it is! So much to absorb here.This will marinate with me over the next few days for sure! Thank you Sarah for putting this together with such care.
If you have to ask the question, you're not going to understand the answer. Especially that one. So overly complex. It's like bad academe.
Sarah, I wonder if you’re confounding a few things here. One is the ‘nuclear’ family (loosely, pair coupled adults with children) and the other is how nuclear families relate to each other within a societal context.
While I accept that families may take different forms in different times and cultures (polygamous families for eg), I think it is true to say that, by and large, the nuclear family has been the ordinary family unit in most societies over time. What differs I think is how those family units interact. As you say, in certain Latin and European cultures, parents spend much more time socialising with other families and individuals, whereas in our modern western culture family units tend to be more inward looking. In my view this is all to the good, but I see it not as an issue of intra family relations but more of inter family (and individual) relations.
I’d love to hear if you have found examples in your research of alternative family structures succeeding at scale over time (eg single mother/father collectives or the like)?
Per your question, I think extended families - with grandparents, friends, "aunts" etc in the mix - have worked very well. The nuclear set-up is very aligned with capitalism...which is my point.
Hey Geoff, hmmm I don't think so. The nuclear family is one that specifically doesn't include extended family members and tends to centre the male as the breadwinner - this is a relatively recent phenomenon and is not the "traditional" set-up. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0020