First off - good luck with the apartment, what a pickle! I cringed reading this as I have been in similar situations myself.
What a shock / honour to be quoted in your newsletter! I'm very much looking forward to reading other people's thoughts on this. I watched the whole series of Extrapolations and was thoroughly broken-hearted by the end because (SPOILER ALERT) they show a world where the corporations / one-percenters continue to reign supreme and our beautiful planet is thoroughly destroyed and although a few people still try to turn things around, most don't and so it's too late. The thought of this actually being the future of humanity and our beautiful planet terrifies me.
This ties into my dismay just this week after listening to a 7am podcast about how crap Labor is being on climate action: they are still approving new fossil fuel projects here there and everywhere, their Safeguard Mechanism is a paltry start and we're not likely to get anything else out of them this term of government. This last Federal election was supposed to be the climate election because we must make bold climate action this decade. Yet we are already in 2023 and our government is doing the bare minimum. I write letters to MP's. I sign petitions. I post on socials to share info. Things are not changing fast enough and I am losing hope that we aren't going to be in the situation Extrapolations paints for the future.
So grim! I feel like unless I hold on to a, perhaps naive, glimmer of hope that things will be okay, then I will fall into a hole of despair and won’t be able to fight/protest anymore.
Some glimmers I’m holding on to -- Jeff Sparrows thesis in Crimes Against Nature that actually it’s always been the majority of people against all these big destructive industries (tobacco, cars, plastic, etc) and just that small greedy percent that pushes it through ... so perhaps every can/will care enough to change our course (asap)? Sarah, would love to know your thoughts on Jeff’s book.
The other glimmer is the quote from the Genevieve Bell episode that “the future is already here, just unevenly distributed” -- so what if we don’t see the “future that is here” as tech etc etc, but instead we see it as the small pockets of regenerative communities? We know that all the wisdom and the ideas we need to survive together as a species are here, and have been here for thousands of years, and it is that future which we need to distribute evenly across all parts of society. Is it Joanna Macy who talks about how we can’t vision a positive future because we have been fed all these sci-fi doomsday apocalypse narratives? Perhaps my hope is letting me bury my head in the sand, but it feels too paralysing otherwise. I don’t think I’ll be watching Extrapolations 😅
I recommend giving it a miss. It just kept getting worse and worse and I stuck with it because I wanted to see if things would turn around somehow. They didn't. Again, SPOILER ALERT, in the end, the main tech guy who hid carbon capture technology for the benefit of his mega-corp went to jail and then they started carbon capture. But it was all too late by then, the damage was done, all the big animals were gone, the fish were too, no one could breathe, the temperatures were unbearable etc. I also came to realise I wasn't the ideal audience for the show because I'm already galvanized to fight for our planet and for climate action. The people who should watch that show are the climate deniers so that it can strike an almighty fear into them and get them starting to pitch in and help.
I totally agree with your opening statement Nat, I feel exactly the same.
Jeff's thesis sounds great! Would love to see him on Sarah's podcast to elaborate. This reminds me of a point from Sarah's Wild book about how you only need a small % of people to bring about big change like civil rights, or feminism. (I think they were the examples although I could be wrong about that). So every time I come across someone who doesn't care about the climate emergency, I tell myself: "well, we don't need to get 'em all onboard, (and realistically we never would), we just need to get enough."
Your line from Joanna Macy blows my mind. A hippie spiritual lady once said something similar to me too: about how this grim world is what we're manifesting because that's what all our stories are. I don't know if that's true, but it did make me wonder where are our positive future stories where climate disaster is averted because of steps we took this very decade?! I can't think of one example.
I haven't read 'Crimes Against Nature' yet, but have listened to some excellent interviews with Jeff Sparrow, including this one, recorded at the Byron Writers' Festival last year:
I listened to that podcast, too. And felt sad. I might ask my Dad to wade in here. He is part of the LEAN (the environmental arm of the Labor party)...
And thanks for "letting me" use your comment.
x
PPS thanks for your empathy re the accomodation. I'm writing this sitting at a cafe in the Marais, dreading going back to the apartment. I scoured other places today...no joy so far.
Yes! I just can't bear the idea that we are done on government led, big swing policy climate / environmental solutions for a term of government which only just started. I think the EPA legislation is getting a makeover so maybe we can get some positive outcomes there.
Anytime Sarah and good luck, hope a good solution pops up soon!
I've been thinking lately about trauma. Not so much the big T trauma but the more invisible or discounted trauma. I've been listening to/reading Gabor Maté (a Canadian physician who has specialized in his retirement in addiction and trauma--- he would be an amazing person for you to interview, Sarah!!). He was given away to a stranger as an infant during WWII by his mother to save him from starvation in the ghetto. He was returned to his mother 6 weeks later but that sense of abandonment lived in his cells throughout his life. Trauma that happens before conscious memory seems to be the most insidious because it makes you feel crazy (I have first hand experience with this) Luckily for me, my mom talked freely about the birth trauma I experienced so I was able to connect the dots. I wonder about all the traumatized people in the world already and how we can help them heal and how there are going to be many more traumas due to climate change. Because hurt people are doing more damage everyday.
Sadly I've not been able to connect with Gabor re a podcast....i've been obsessed by his story for a long time. Approaching talent from Australia is always a bit tricky...I often have to do cartwheels and songs and dances to get the good ones.
I love your love line...hurt people are doing damage. It's true. The destroyers are hurting.
You could also look into Dick Schwartz as a guest. He founded IFS which is compassion-inquiry aligned and addresses trauma and legacy burdens through the use of self-compassion, curiosity, and connection. Through the IFS lens, which holds a 'multiplicity of the mind' framework, we have protective parts that act in our defense to avoid the triggering of our past traumas. So in short those who hurt have their own unresolved wounding. We also have activist parts that can go into overdrive to prevent us from re-experiencing our own pain/anxiety/grief/stuckness. Really fascinating healing framework with a focus on expanding 'self-energy' to the global community.
Children already feel it. I can't pick up a nature book for my 7yo without it mentioning the climate crisis. Even the ones from the 90s..... While this may seem like progress, I think it actually exacerbates the trauma and despair. In a flawed attempt to give them small actions to help and to ameliorate their helplessness, it puts the onus of responsibility on them while introducing more horror they can truly do nothing about. The worst of it is the disillusionment - if adults know this, why don't they help? This is trauma: not only the existential threat (or forgone conclusion) itself, but the aloneness in knowing the adults cant or wont help. I believe the most enduring salve for really any horror or trauma is connection, the opposite of aloneness. We return to ourselves, to each other, to the Earth time and again, with persistence, with care, with intention. We root in our interconnectedness, yes in hopes that it creates larger change, but also as the means to our shared soul survival through this grief and difficulty. We hold space for each other with care, we nourish ourselves and each other as we engage in activism and as we step away from it to nurture our nervous systems and hearts. We find beauty and wonder in the every day. We gift ourselves the very things that make being alive a joy while also giving love and attention to the parts of us suffering the most through the climate crisis. We remember that we are part of a universal fabric and that while there are people here stymieing our shot at existence, they are specks of dust in a vast unknown. And we continue to push - with creativity, connection, passion, art, ingenuity, ferocity. Thankful there are likeminded people like all of you. Sending care and commitment to us all.
On the AI issue, firstly, Sarah, I really loved your interview with Genevieve Bell. I feel like she’s a voice of reason and sanity amid the noise, confusion and hysteria. I wonder if you would consider inviting her back for a follow-up interview? I’d love to see her speak more to the things we should be worried about, and not just the things we shouldn’t.
There are a few things that I’m not seeing enough discussion of regarding AI at the moment, including the following:
– when AI is set to replace so many jobs (some of them quite rapidly), why are we not talking seriously about introducing a Universal Basic Income (UBI) or other measures that will cushion the blow for the huge number of workers who may find themselves suddenly unemployed?
– I’m much less concerned about the idea of AI surpassing human intelligence and taking over the world than I am about the possibility of what these technologies could do in the near-term – for example, enabling people to hack into highly sensitive data, commit huge acts of fraud, bring down global banking systems etc etc. I think these are all very real possibilities with potentially catastrophic consequences.
– I’ve seen some discussion, but not nearly enough, about the built-in bias of most existing AI technologies. I’m really worried about how rapidly these systems are being developed and deployed and that it will be very difficult to go back and address these issues if this isn’t addressed seriously soon. I’m still hoping that you might be able to get someone like Timnit Gebru onto Wild to speak further to this. On that note, I feel that everyone in the media needs to be thinking about who they’re platforming to speak about AI – as Genevieve referred to in her interview, there’s so much amazing work being done by First Nations academics and researchers in this space. The Indigenous Knowledge Systems Lab at Deakin University, run by Tyson Yunkaporta and Old Ways New, founded by Angie Abdilla, are two organisations doing incredible work, who I would love to hear more from. White people have had the mic on this issue for way too long (especially those with links to Longtermism…).
On anemoia (not a great-sounding word...):
– Reading this made me immediately think about an experience I had in Borneo in 2019. My family and I had spent a week in the jungles of Danum Valley, one of the last areas of primary rainforest left in Southeast Asia – a beautiful unspoilt wilderness on the east coast of Sabah that made us feel as though we’d stepped back in time to another age. On the long bus ride back to the other side of the island, we passed endless rows of palm oil plantations, and as I looked out the window, I imagined what backpacking would look like when my children grow up – picturing them trekking not through ancient jungles, but walking through monoculture tree plantations. Of course, it’s more than likely that this generation won’t be able to travel very far at all in the future – a result of both climate breakdown and the resulting geopolitical conflicts that will probably make travel impossible for anyone but the uber-wealthy, who will no doubt still have their private jets and private islands that have been artificially elevated above sea level…
– Thinking about the concept of anemoia also reminded me of this Prince Ea video from a few years back:
– While I’m very happy to hear this on the one-hand (as a passionate anti-smoker), I agree with you that there’s a good chance that this could lead to new conditions and diagnoses emerging, and an overprescription of medications – and of course, little to no examination of the underlying issues that are causing the rise in vaping in the first place…
On the possibility of our care running out:
– I haven’t yet seen Extrapolations, but Racheal’s comment gave me pause for thought too. It’s scary to imagine living 15 years from now and seeing that no progress has been made, or worse – that we’re in an even more dire predicament. I know I mentioned this film the other day, but it’s nearing the end of its cinema run, and for those who haven’t seen it yet, please, please, please try to catch ‘The Giants’ on the big screen. There are so many lessons to be learnt from Bob Brown’s 50 years of activism. While so many other activists have come and gone (mostly due to burnout), Bob’s energy had never wavered – he’s been so consistent for so many decades. I think there are probably a range of reasons for this, but two that stand out to me are 1) that he’s always been very focussed on his mission – his priority has been to protect the ancient forests and rivers of lutruwita/Tasmania; and while his foundation now campaigns on other related issues, that mission is still its highest priority; and 2) Bob’s always maintained a strong and very deep connection to the places he’s trying to save – he still spends much of his time in nature and he’s said that this is where he draws his strength from.
If you don’t have a chance to see ‘The Giants’ in the cinema, this is another great doco on Bob Brown and the fight to save takayna that also touches on some of these things:
SC, as always, a lot. Re Gen Bell, I saw your comment re a thread...what about I see if she'd be cool to join the thread over a 48 hour period or so.
Have I flagged? Tyson is coming up on on Wild.
To your first point - UBI would be a wise use of this notion.
Finally, your second point - it's much like my feeling re climate disaster. It won't be that we burn to a crisp, the greater threat is mass civil unrest as the inequalities expose themselves.
Oh, it would be amazing if you could ask Genevieve if she’d be willing to join the thread for a bit. It sounds as though a lot of listeners loved your interview with her, so I’m sure others would be keen on this idea too!
I’m very excited to hear that Tyson’s coming up on Wild. And yes - I totally agree with you about the major risks we face. x
I can totally understand Racheal’s concern. The Greens and others say a lot of things that sound good - but we need to be conscious they do not have the responsibility of Government and their audience is far from universal. I see the govt implementing a progressive agenda across a very broad policy front while bringing the community with them. We need to transition urgently, but from my experience, we risk everything without the community on board.
As far as I know the govt has approved a couple of extensions to existing fossil fuel projects, it has approved one small metallurgical coal mine and I understand it has rejected a few new coal proposals – importantly I think legally all of these can only be considered under existing Law. The govt is currently reforming environment laws so that climate change can be better included in consideration of new projects.
The Safeguard Mechanism is about managing down emissions of existing projects and driving investment in low emissions technology. From my reading it should be effective and is a move in the right direction. For example, I understand it is driving a significant move to electrify mining vehicles – and as fossil fuel use at mine sites reduce, fuel tax credits (fossil fuel ‘subsidies’) will reduce.
Behind the scenes LEAN still works on guiding Labor policy. Currently it is developing policy initiatives around a range of significant climate drivers including land as a carbon asset, plantation timber, land clearing and methane emission reduction.
I’m no expert Racheal but is hope this his helpful
Thanks for this, it did help me feel a bit better about the progress. I have heard that Labor / the PM's goal is to 'take the people with us' which is great if it works, although I worry that this means we aren't going at the speed at which we need to.
I'm also concerned about gas, as I think that's being positioned as being 'not as bad' as coal although the science shows it very much is. There's a great Full Story podcast recently from The Guardian about this. I'm especially worried about the Santos Liverpool Plains project on that front. That's in my own State and I've written to my State MP's about this.
Thanks so very much for all your hard work on this, all your focus areas in LEAN are so important. It really does help to know that this work is occurring and influencing Labor policy from another angle.
To be honest I don’t know where to start and what questions to ask in regards to AI. I don’t know what I don’t know- where are the blind spots? The whole realm of AI feels like a big black hole to me.
I listened to your podcast with Genevieve Bell thinking it’s a great place to start and appreciated her clear explanations and thinking around AI. However, I went on to listen to a 3hour conversation on AI between Nate Hagens and Daniel Schamchtenberger on TGS podcast and found they explored complexities, nuances and layers that I’m still processing.
I think Mary Oliver’s words that you shared are just perfect. I feel I am in a TBC space and to keep learning what I can and see what emerges with how to think through it all.
With energy and climate change, I had an “Ah ha!” moment while listening to Nate and Art Berman talk about the various uses of oil. That oil isn’t just used for gasoline and electricity, that so many things and processes require oil, including asphalt for roads. This felt like a moment where light was shone on a blind spot. I would like a learning experience like this with AI. Like ‘Oh, I now understand the extent to which AI has been a part of my life + the way our world functions.’ I think it will help inform my boundaries with AI.
What it does for me is I feel clearer, better informed and I understand what’s going on in the world. It helps me make decisions as well as feel better equipped to engage in discussions around these aspects of our lives.
It also informs my work. I don’t consider myself an activist or work directly in the fields of AI or climate. I work as a Montessori teacher. Children explore how humans have met their needs over time, the inventions of humans and the interdependent relationships that exist in nature and the human built world. Learning about oil and climate change enriches the foundation from which I teach. There is a timeline that we present which shows things like the control of fire, the invention of the wheel etc and I now think oil needs to be on there.
I don’t give a big lecture about oil to children. I bring in bits and pieces as a point of interest when the opportunity arises. Children know about climate change and engage in talks about renewables etc. When relevant, I might say something like “Did you know that even our roads are made of oil?” “I wonder what else in our lives are made of oil or require oil in the process?” Appreciation of where we are at, how we got here is where I’m coming from. Please know I don’t try and get children to bear the weight of the problems we face. It’s about developing curiosity and learning about our world.
The AI piece is also related to my work with children. We generally promote low tech but COVID and online learning blew that apart. What is the impact now/potential future infiltration into education? Impact on child development- how they connect to the world around them and with each other? I think it helps to engage in these questions, to be informed than just push it aside like it doesn’t exist or blindly allow it to engulf our lives.
Lastly, I dance. Dance has been a big part of my life since childhood and I see it as a way to stay embodied and connected to myself. Dance really only requires the human body. Yes, it’s possible to do amazing things now with technology in dance but at it’s very foundation is the human body and spirit. I teach children and adults to stay connected to their bodies and move creatively. It’s my small way of inviting others to stay connected to what makes us human.
I love the point you make about kids and vaping. From my perspective, we are raising a generation of kids with highly dysregulated nervous systems, and we are busy teaching them maths and geography and technology, without teaching them what I consider the essentials of life - how to process emotion, interact skillfully with the world, and regulate their nervous systems. The world would be a different place if we grew up knowing how to bring ourselves back to a baseline of calm and operate from this place.
As a former teacher, I agree. It's why I left. I had this overwhelming feeling that everything we were teaching them was completely pointless, and most of the kids knew it too. I had to leave because I just felt increasingly filled with despair at how poor the mental health of the kids I was teaching was, and there was little I could do about it.
That is such a shame we lose teachers like yourself Louise.
My best friend, a female teacher is contemplating that exact same thing now. She just cant see the light in teaching anymore, the box tickers have taken the passion out of it.
My youngest son is now in year 11 and each day i pick him up i have always jokingly asked him, "what lessons did we learn today for $25" re the annual school fees i pay.
Over a year of asking i could count on two hands the days he has told me a lesson he had passion with and wanted to know more about.
Usually it will be a complaint about a class or teacher just reading from a textbook word for word to them with no discussion or a shrug of his shoulders with a "meh".
It so does need an overhaul from the same curriculum as the last 50 years.
Thinking outside that square would be so much better if we want a changed future.
Sadly, this is what most of us had to resort to. There is simply no time to plan any good lessons and it is increasingly hard to keep students' attention...it is no exaggeration now that almost a third of your class will have some sort of diagnosis and therefore requires a lot of admin to 'prove' you are catering to their needs, which takes more time away from actually doing the things that will help. The system as a whole ignores the glaringly obvious- the problem isn't the kids and their minds, it is the culture they are being brought up in. Having this individualistic mindset in regards to what students need and what teachers are expected to do is just perpetuating the cycle. It's nuts
Just lurking on your comments about the problem with the education system and what are we actually teaching kids these days to say that I find this really interesting. Is there someone / an organization that is working to address this? If so I'd love to hear them on Sarah's podcast to hear what are children actually learning in school and what sort of adults are we teaching them to be?
I don't know to be honest, I kind of completely tapped out of all things education because I needed time to heal from the whole thing. I would love to look into this/write about it one day. It is encouraging to hear that people are actually interested in the conversation around this because it was very much shut down where I was. And I think overall teachers were too overwhelmed to think about it much. Those of us that do leave.
I have no kids in school at the moment, although I may do one day and even so I'm very interested in it. They are the future and hope for the planet so I care how they are educated. In general I find that's the reason so many people have blinders on to things we should be paying more attention to / taking action on - because we're too bogged down in the minutia / admin of basic life.
So well put Louise, and absolutely mirroring my friends comments all too often.
She is such a passionate teacher of near 20 years and loves the kids, but as you say, the continued changes and requirements of the school system for teachers has turned them into Quality Assurance officers or Admin managers. Hard to see it getter better unfortunately with teachers now catering to so many groups and parental requests. Is it any wonder kids now have such low resilience levels, with the major influence of a teacher in their early years not being able to say anything to them without fear of penalty or offence.
Wishing you the best in your search for a fresh start to recharge your soul.
Yes! It seems such a wasted opportunity when we have most of the population captive at such a formative time, but we fail to give them the skills they need for life. I hope you found a new path that's more fulfilling for you.
Firstly thanks again for your tenacity and resilience in continuing to voice the unspeakable, to keep spotlighting the elephant (s) in the room...even when you wonder if anyone is listening. They are - but many can only bow their heads and hope its not real - but I believe more and more ARE listening. I see your courage and it always gives me a sliver of hope.
Its hard. Ive been following the climate crisis/global warming emergency for over 15 years. Got politically active for 4 years - helping establish an independent political party (Independents for Climate Action Now) which eventually folded before last election due to Lib Govt sneakily changing the membership requirements in order to wipe out small parties, but not before I believe we were influential in connecting the dots and helping plant seeds for the much better supported Teals Independent movement.
But exhaustion and frustration take its toll. The 'Biz as usual' world, the online troll armies dictating how to think, relationship turmoil, moving from my home town etc etc...sucked my 60yr old energy but as the dust settles, I know I will find another niche to protest against our "leaders" apathy and blind idiocy, once again. Gotta go down fighting dont we?
Hope you find the right apartment and sacred space for you soon.
I think being FOR Climate solutions creates more energy for the same, but being Against Capitalism per se zaps your energy. Maybe your focus could be redirected?
I'd love to hear Sarah's thoughts on this, but throwing in my two cents worth – I think that once you start to understand how capitalism influences everything in our supposed democracy (eg. that even government policy in influenced more by corporate agendas that the will of the people), you also start to see that most of the proposed 'solutions' to climate change only serve to benefit capitalism and will not get us anywhere near where we need to be if we're serious about maintaining a habitable planet. It therefore becomes difficult to propose solutions that don't first require the dismantling of capitalism. I do think, though, that we need to spend more time dreaming, thinking and talking about what kind of world we want to build after the (inevitable) fall of capitalism.
Firstly, very excited for your travelling adventures Sarah! Wishing you an inspired time. Some things I believe are not being thought through or properly challenged (and the increasing tendency to self-censor): gender ideology and new accompanying laws that do away with parental consent for medical intervention of minors. As Camille Paglia said: "anyone who collaborates with the intrusion of a developing mind and body is committing child abuse." Another thing is childhood vaccines, and medical coercion, and our unwillingness to at least question them, or allow heteredox views without immediately discrediting them as "anti-vax". And lastly, blind faith in authority ("the science") or experts (experts that agree with the chosen narrative) such as what we experienced during covid.
Sarah - Try and buy some bluetooth sleep buds. I’m a light sleeper too, living with teen/young adult kids who were destroying my sleep with their comings and goings from our family home. Then I discovered Bose sleep buds which have changed my life - noisy holiday rentals, traffic, neighbouring parties, none of it is an issue any more. I’m on my second pair. Better sleep, better peace of mind. Not cheap but what price good sleep!
I have been having some really frustrating conversations with my Dad of late (I've had to move back home due to illness...which I suspect is somewhat caused by the despair and anxiety I have been feeling around the state of the world for a few years now) and the article about ambiguous grief really summed up what I've been trying to say to him. I've been trying to say that young people's poor mental health is due to a grieving, knowing that their future looks a lot worse than their past with a greater certainty than previous generations have felt on such a large scale. His argument is always that 'life is always a cycle' and that 'everyone thought the world was going to end during the Cold War'. I've always argued that its access to information that is different now, that we simply cannot escape ever hearing about it. He simply does not get why me and my siblings are really struggling to make our way in the world and I have just had to give up trying. He wants to continue living in his bubble and I feel that this is representative of a lot of people, particularly of that generation, who just want their nice retirement and not to think about it. I feel there is too little wisdom in old age to help the younger generations navigate what is to come. We are mostly on our own it feels. I've been thinking about this a lot because I've been looking into Aboriginal spirituality, and indigenous spiritual practices generally, to try and make sense of it all. I cannot even begin to imagine the depths of the grief they must be feeling around all this...that the knowledge they have cultivated for so long is continually being dismissed and lost.
Hi Sarah, I wear noise cancelling earplugs every night. Cancels out barking dogs, everything really. You get used to them and it becomes comforting. Noisy cities!! 🙂
First off - good luck with the apartment, what a pickle! I cringed reading this as I have been in similar situations myself.
What a shock / honour to be quoted in your newsletter! I'm very much looking forward to reading other people's thoughts on this. I watched the whole series of Extrapolations and was thoroughly broken-hearted by the end because (SPOILER ALERT) they show a world where the corporations / one-percenters continue to reign supreme and our beautiful planet is thoroughly destroyed and although a few people still try to turn things around, most don't and so it's too late. The thought of this actually being the future of humanity and our beautiful planet terrifies me.
This ties into my dismay just this week after listening to a 7am podcast about how crap Labor is being on climate action: they are still approving new fossil fuel projects here there and everywhere, their Safeguard Mechanism is a paltry start and we're not likely to get anything else out of them this term of government. This last Federal election was supposed to be the climate election because we must make bold climate action this decade. Yet we are already in 2023 and our government is doing the bare minimum. I write letters to MP's. I sign petitions. I post on socials to share info. Things are not changing fast enough and I am losing hope that we aren't going to be in the situation Extrapolations paints for the future.
So grim! I feel like unless I hold on to a, perhaps naive, glimmer of hope that things will be okay, then I will fall into a hole of despair and won’t be able to fight/protest anymore.
Some glimmers I’m holding on to -- Jeff Sparrows thesis in Crimes Against Nature that actually it’s always been the majority of people against all these big destructive industries (tobacco, cars, plastic, etc) and just that small greedy percent that pushes it through ... so perhaps every can/will care enough to change our course (asap)? Sarah, would love to know your thoughts on Jeff’s book.
The other glimmer is the quote from the Genevieve Bell episode that “the future is already here, just unevenly distributed” -- so what if we don’t see the “future that is here” as tech etc etc, but instead we see it as the small pockets of regenerative communities? We know that all the wisdom and the ideas we need to survive together as a species are here, and have been here for thousands of years, and it is that future which we need to distribute evenly across all parts of society. Is it Joanna Macy who talks about how we can’t vision a positive future because we have been fed all these sci-fi doomsday apocalypse narratives? Perhaps my hope is letting me bury my head in the sand, but it feels too paralysing otherwise. I don’t think I’ll be watching Extrapolations 😅
Hope is propelling.
I will look into Jeff Sparrow.
Yes the William Gibson quote is a cracker. I had to think about it from several angles to really feel it.
Some truth to the apocalypse narratives - Gen Bell's thesis.
Thanks for being here, Nat. x
I recommend giving it a miss. It just kept getting worse and worse and I stuck with it because I wanted to see if things would turn around somehow. They didn't. Again, SPOILER ALERT, in the end, the main tech guy who hid carbon capture technology for the benefit of his mega-corp went to jail and then they started carbon capture. But it was all too late by then, the damage was done, all the big animals were gone, the fish were too, no one could breathe, the temperatures were unbearable etc. I also came to realise I wasn't the ideal audience for the show because I'm already galvanized to fight for our planet and for climate action. The people who should watch that show are the climate deniers so that it can strike an almighty fear into them and get them starting to pitch in and help.
I totally agree with your opening statement Nat, I feel exactly the same.
Jeff's thesis sounds great! Would love to see him on Sarah's podcast to elaborate. This reminds me of a point from Sarah's Wild book about how you only need a small % of people to bring about big change like civil rights, or feminism. (I think they were the examples although I could be wrong about that). So every time I come across someone who doesn't care about the climate emergency, I tell myself: "well, we don't need to get 'em all onboard, (and realistically we never would), we just need to get enough."
Your line from Joanna Macy blows my mind. A hippie spiritual lady once said something similar to me too: about how this grim world is what we're manifesting because that's what all our stories are. I don't know if that's true, but it did make me wonder where are our positive future stories where climate disaster is averted because of steps we took this very decade?! I can't think of one example.
I haven't read 'Crimes Against Nature' yet, but have listened to some excellent interviews with Jeff Sparrow, including this one, recorded at the Byron Writers' Festival last year:
https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/big-ideas/id164330831?i=1000586546642
Oo I missed him at Byron Writers fest so thanks for sharing this!
I listened to that podcast, too. And felt sad. I might ask my Dad to wade in here. He is part of the LEAN (the environmental arm of the Labor party)...
And thanks for "letting me" use your comment.
x
PPS thanks for your empathy re the accomodation. I'm writing this sitting at a cafe in the Marais, dreading going back to the apartment. I scoured other places today...no joy so far.
Yes! I just can't bear the idea that we are done on government led, big swing policy climate / environmental solutions for a term of government which only just started. I think the EPA legislation is getting a makeover so maybe we can get some positive outcomes there.
Anytime Sarah and good luck, hope a good solution pops up soon!
I've been thinking lately about trauma. Not so much the big T trauma but the more invisible or discounted trauma. I've been listening to/reading Gabor Maté (a Canadian physician who has specialized in his retirement in addiction and trauma--- he would be an amazing person for you to interview, Sarah!!). He was given away to a stranger as an infant during WWII by his mother to save him from starvation in the ghetto. He was returned to his mother 6 weeks later but that sense of abandonment lived in his cells throughout his life. Trauma that happens before conscious memory seems to be the most insidious because it makes you feel crazy (I have first hand experience with this) Luckily for me, my mom talked freely about the birth trauma I experienced so I was able to connect the dots. I wonder about all the traumatized people in the world already and how we can help them heal and how there are going to be many more traumas due to climate change. Because hurt people are doing more damage everyday.
Sadly I've not been able to connect with Gabor re a podcast....i've been obsessed by his story for a long time. Approaching talent from Australia is always a bit tricky...I often have to do cartwheels and songs and dances to get the good ones.
I love your love line...hurt people are doing damage. It's true. The destroyers are hurting.
You could also look into Dick Schwartz as a guest. He founded IFS which is compassion-inquiry aligned and addresses trauma and legacy burdens through the use of self-compassion, curiosity, and connection. Through the IFS lens, which holds a 'multiplicity of the mind' framework, we have protective parts that act in our defense to avoid the triggering of our past traumas. So in short those who hurt have their own unresolved wounding. We also have activist parts that can go into overdrive to prevent us from re-experiencing our own pain/anxiety/grief/stuckness. Really fascinating healing framework with a focus on expanding 'self-energy' to the global community.
Children already feel it. I can't pick up a nature book for my 7yo without it mentioning the climate crisis. Even the ones from the 90s..... While this may seem like progress, I think it actually exacerbates the trauma and despair. In a flawed attempt to give them small actions to help and to ameliorate their helplessness, it puts the onus of responsibility on them while introducing more horror they can truly do nothing about. The worst of it is the disillusionment - if adults know this, why don't they help? This is trauma: not only the existential threat (or forgone conclusion) itself, but the aloneness in knowing the adults cant or wont help. I believe the most enduring salve for really any horror or trauma is connection, the opposite of aloneness. We return to ourselves, to each other, to the Earth time and again, with persistence, with care, with intention. We root in our interconnectedness, yes in hopes that it creates larger change, but also as the means to our shared soul survival through this grief and difficulty. We hold space for each other with care, we nourish ourselves and each other as we engage in activism and as we step away from it to nurture our nervous systems and hearts. We find beauty and wonder in the every day. We gift ourselves the very things that make being alive a joy while also giving love and attention to the parts of us suffering the most through the climate crisis. We remember that we are part of a universal fabric and that while there are people here stymieing our shot at existence, they are specks of dust in a vast unknown. And we continue to push - with creativity, connection, passion, art, ingenuity, ferocity. Thankful there are likeminded people like all of you. Sending care and commitment to us all.
Nostalgia certainly isn't what it used to be 😉
hahahaha.... nice.
Hi Sarah, if you're still looking for a quieter part of Paris, try Montparnasse. Some nice reasonably priced hotels but not far out of Paris 🗼
I few random thoughts:
On the AI issue, firstly, Sarah, I really loved your interview with Genevieve Bell. I feel like she’s a voice of reason and sanity amid the noise, confusion and hysteria. I wonder if you would consider inviting her back for a follow-up interview? I’d love to see her speak more to the things we should be worried about, and not just the things we shouldn’t.
There are a few things that I’m not seeing enough discussion of regarding AI at the moment, including the following:
– when AI is set to replace so many jobs (some of them quite rapidly), why are we not talking seriously about introducing a Universal Basic Income (UBI) or other measures that will cushion the blow for the huge number of workers who may find themselves suddenly unemployed?
– I’m much less concerned about the idea of AI surpassing human intelligence and taking over the world than I am about the possibility of what these technologies could do in the near-term – for example, enabling people to hack into highly sensitive data, commit huge acts of fraud, bring down global banking systems etc etc. I think these are all very real possibilities with potentially catastrophic consequences.
– I’ve seen some discussion, but not nearly enough, about the built-in bias of most existing AI technologies. I’m really worried about how rapidly these systems are being developed and deployed and that it will be very difficult to go back and address these issues if this isn’t addressed seriously soon. I’m still hoping that you might be able to get someone like Timnit Gebru onto Wild to speak further to this. On that note, I feel that everyone in the media needs to be thinking about who they’re platforming to speak about AI – as Genevieve referred to in her interview, there’s so much amazing work being done by First Nations academics and researchers in this space. The Indigenous Knowledge Systems Lab at Deakin University, run by Tyson Yunkaporta and Old Ways New, founded by Angie Abdilla, are two organisations doing incredible work, who I would love to hear more from. White people have had the mic on this issue for way too long (especially those with links to Longtermism…).
On anemoia (not a great-sounding word...):
– Reading this made me immediately think about an experience I had in Borneo in 2019. My family and I had spent a week in the jungles of Danum Valley, one of the last areas of primary rainforest left in Southeast Asia – a beautiful unspoilt wilderness on the east coast of Sabah that made us feel as though we’d stepped back in time to another age. On the long bus ride back to the other side of the island, we passed endless rows of palm oil plantations, and as I looked out the window, I imagined what backpacking would look like when my children grow up – picturing them trekking not through ancient jungles, but walking through monoculture tree plantations. Of course, it’s more than likely that this generation won’t be able to travel very far at all in the future – a result of both climate breakdown and the resulting geopolitical conflicts that will probably make travel impossible for anyone but the uber-wealthy, who will no doubt still have their private jets and private islands that have been artificially elevated above sea level…
– Thinking about the concept of anemoia also reminded me of this Prince Ea video from a few years back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRLJscAlk1M
On the vaping ban:
– While I’m very happy to hear this on the one-hand (as a passionate anti-smoker), I agree with you that there’s a good chance that this could lead to new conditions and diagnoses emerging, and an overprescription of medications – and of course, little to no examination of the underlying issues that are causing the rise in vaping in the first place…
On the possibility of our care running out:
– I haven’t yet seen Extrapolations, but Racheal’s comment gave me pause for thought too. It’s scary to imagine living 15 years from now and seeing that no progress has been made, or worse – that we’re in an even more dire predicament. I know I mentioned this film the other day, but it’s nearing the end of its cinema run, and for those who haven’t seen it yet, please, please, please try to catch ‘The Giants’ on the big screen. There are so many lessons to be learnt from Bob Brown’s 50 years of activism. While so many other activists have come and gone (mostly due to burnout), Bob’s energy had never wavered – he’s been so consistent for so many decades. I think there are probably a range of reasons for this, but two that stand out to me are 1) that he’s always been very focussed on his mission – his priority has been to protect the ancient forests and rivers of lutruwita/Tasmania; and while his foundation now campaigns on other related issues, that mission is still its highest priority; and 2) Bob’s always maintained a strong and very deep connection to the places he’s trying to save – he still spends much of his time in nature and he’s said that this is where he draws his strength from.
If you don’t have a chance to see ‘The Giants’ in the cinema, this is another great doco on Bob Brown and the fight to save takayna that also touches on some of these things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdE2YCRjck
SC, as always, a lot. Re Gen Bell, I saw your comment re a thread...what about I see if she'd be cool to join the thread over a 48 hour period or so.
Have I flagged? Tyson is coming up on on Wild.
To your first point - UBI would be a wise use of this notion.
Finally, your second point - it's much like my feeling re climate disaster. It won't be that we burn to a crisp, the greater threat is mass civil unrest as the inequalities expose themselves.
x
Tyson! I totally loved his book Sand Talk and his interview with Josh on Uncomfortable Conversations podcast. Looking forward to this.
Oh, it would be amazing if you could ask Genevieve if she’d be willing to join the thread for a bit. It sounds as though a lot of listeners loved your interview with her, so I’m sure others would be keen on this idea too!
I’m very excited to hear that Tyson’s coming up on Wild. And yes - I totally agree with you about the major risks we face. x
I can totally understand Racheal’s concern. The Greens and others say a lot of things that sound good - but we need to be conscious they do not have the responsibility of Government and their audience is far from universal. I see the govt implementing a progressive agenda across a very broad policy front while bringing the community with them. We need to transition urgently, but from my experience, we risk everything without the community on board.
As far as I know the govt has approved a couple of extensions to existing fossil fuel projects, it has approved one small metallurgical coal mine and I understand it has rejected a few new coal proposals – importantly I think legally all of these can only be considered under existing Law. The govt is currently reforming environment laws so that climate change can be better included in consideration of new projects.
The Safeguard Mechanism is about managing down emissions of existing projects and driving investment in low emissions technology. From my reading it should be effective and is a move in the right direction. For example, I understand it is driving a significant move to electrify mining vehicles – and as fossil fuel use at mine sites reduce, fuel tax credits (fossil fuel ‘subsidies’) will reduce.
Behind the scenes LEAN still works on guiding Labor policy. Currently it is developing policy initiatives around a range of significant climate drivers including land as a carbon asset, plantation timber, land clearing and methane emission reduction.
I’m no expert Racheal but is hope this his helpful
Good on you Dad - I know speaking out on this is not your favourite thing...unless you're in a LEAN meeting!
Hi Michael,
Thanks for this, it did help me feel a bit better about the progress. I have heard that Labor / the PM's goal is to 'take the people with us' which is great if it works, although I worry that this means we aren't going at the speed at which we need to.
I'm also concerned about gas, as I think that's being positioned as being 'not as bad' as coal although the science shows it very much is. There's a great Full Story podcast recently from The Guardian about this. I'm especially worried about the Santos Liverpool Plains project on that front. That's in my own State and I've written to my State MP's about this.
Thanks so very much for all your hard work on this, all your focus areas in LEAN are so important. It really does help to know that this work is occurring and influencing Labor policy from another angle.
To be honest I don’t know where to start and what questions to ask in regards to AI. I don’t know what I don’t know- where are the blind spots? The whole realm of AI feels like a big black hole to me.
I listened to your podcast with Genevieve Bell thinking it’s a great place to start and appreciated her clear explanations and thinking around AI. However, I went on to listen to a 3hour conversation on AI between Nate Hagens and Daniel Schamchtenberger on TGS podcast and found they explored complexities, nuances and layers that I’m still processing.
I think Mary Oliver’s words that you shared are just perfect. I feel I am in a TBC space and to keep learning what I can and see what emerges with how to think through it all.
With energy and climate change, I had an “Ah ha!” moment while listening to Nate and Art Berman talk about the various uses of oil. That oil isn’t just used for gasoline and electricity, that so many things and processes require oil, including asphalt for roads. This felt like a moment where light was shone on a blind spot. I would like a learning experience like this with AI. Like ‘Oh, I now understand the extent to which AI has been a part of my life + the way our world functions.’ I think it will help inform my boundaries with AI.
I'm yet to listen to that Nate and Schmacht pod...and am hoping to meet them both in Stockholm.
Kei, what does it do for you to know the extent of the infiltration of oil/AI? Curious...
Thanks for the question, Sarah.
What it does for me is I feel clearer, better informed and I understand what’s going on in the world. It helps me make decisions as well as feel better equipped to engage in discussions around these aspects of our lives.
It also informs my work. I don’t consider myself an activist or work directly in the fields of AI or climate. I work as a Montessori teacher. Children explore how humans have met their needs over time, the inventions of humans and the interdependent relationships that exist in nature and the human built world. Learning about oil and climate change enriches the foundation from which I teach. There is a timeline that we present which shows things like the control of fire, the invention of the wheel etc and I now think oil needs to be on there.
I don’t give a big lecture about oil to children. I bring in bits and pieces as a point of interest when the opportunity arises. Children know about climate change and engage in talks about renewables etc. When relevant, I might say something like “Did you know that even our roads are made of oil?” “I wonder what else in our lives are made of oil or require oil in the process?” Appreciation of where we are at, how we got here is where I’m coming from. Please know I don’t try and get children to bear the weight of the problems we face. It’s about developing curiosity and learning about our world.
The AI piece is also related to my work with children. We generally promote low tech but COVID and online learning blew that apart. What is the impact now/potential future infiltration into education? Impact on child development- how they connect to the world around them and with each other? I think it helps to engage in these questions, to be informed than just push it aside like it doesn’t exist or blindly allow it to engulf our lives.
Lastly, I dance. Dance has been a big part of my life since childhood and I see it as a way to stay embodied and connected to myself. Dance really only requires the human body. Yes, it’s possible to do amazing things now with technology in dance but at it’s very foundation is the human body and spirit. I teach children and adults to stay connected to their bodies and move creatively. It’s my small way of inviting others to stay connected to what makes us human.
I love the point you make about kids and vaping. From my perspective, we are raising a generation of kids with highly dysregulated nervous systems, and we are busy teaching them maths and geography and technology, without teaching them what I consider the essentials of life - how to process emotion, interact skillfully with the world, and regulate their nervous systems. The world would be a different place if we grew up knowing how to bring ourselves back to a baseline of calm and operate from this place.
As a former teacher, I agree. It's why I left. I had this overwhelming feeling that everything we were teaching them was completely pointless, and most of the kids knew it too. I had to leave because I just felt increasingly filled with despair at how poor the mental health of the kids I was teaching was, and there was little I could do about it.
That is such a shame we lose teachers like yourself Louise.
My best friend, a female teacher is contemplating that exact same thing now. She just cant see the light in teaching anymore, the box tickers have taken the passion out of it.
My youngest son is now in year 11 and each day i pick him up i have always jokingly asked him, "what lessons did we learn today for $25" re the annual school fees i pay.
Over a year of asking i could count on two hands the days he has told me a lesson he had passion with and wanted to know more about.
Usually it will be a complaint about a class or teacher just reading from a textbook word for word to them with no discussion or a shrug of his shoulders with a "meh".
It so does need an overhaul from the same curriculum as the last 50 years.
Thinking outside that square would be so much better if we want a changed future.
Sadly, this is what most of us had to resort to. There is simply no time to plan any good lessons and it is increasingly hard to keep students' attention...it is no exaggeration now that almost a third of your class will have some sort of diagnosis and therefore requires a lot of admin to 'prove' you are catering to their needs, which takes more time away from actually doing the things that will help. The system as a whole ignores the glaringly obvious- the problem isn't the kids and their minds, it is the culture they are being brought up in. Having this individualistic mindset in regards to what students need and what teachers are expected to do is just perpetuating the cycle. It's nuts
Just lurking on your comments about the problem with the education system and what are we actually teaching kids these days to say that I find this really interesting. Is there someone / an organization that is working to address this? If so I'd love to hear them on Sarah's podcast to hear what are children actually learning in school and what sort of adults are we teaching them to be?
I don't know to be honest, I kind of completely tapped out of all things education because I needed time to heal from the whole thing. I would love to look into this/write about it one day. It is encouraging to hear that people are actually interested in the conversation around this because it was very much shut down where I was. And I think overall teachers were too overwhelmed to think about it much. Those of us that do leave.
I have no kids in school at the moment, although I may do one day and even so I'm very interested in it. They are the future and hope for the planet so I care how they are educated. In general I find that's the reason so many people have blinders on to things we should be paying more attention to / taking action on - because we're too bogged down in the minutia / admin of basic life.
So well put Louise, and absolutely mirroring my friends comments all too often.
She is such a passionate teacher of near 20 years and loves the kids, but as you say, the continued changes and requirements of the school system for teachers has turned them into Quality Assurance officers or Admin managers. Hard to see it getter better unfortunately with teachers now catering to so many groups and parental requests. Is it any wonder kids now have such low resilience levels, with the major influence of a teacher in their early years not being able to say anything to them without fear of penalty or offence.
Wishing you the best in your search for a fresh start to recharge your soul.
Yes! It seems such a wasted opportunity when we have most of the population captive at such a formative time, but we fail to give them the skills they need for life. I hope you found a new path that's more fulfilling for you.
Still working on it!
Firstly thanks again for your tenacity and resilience in continuing to voice the unspeakable, to keep spotlighting the elephant (s) in the room...even when you wonder if anyone is listening. They are - but many can only bow their heads and hope its not real - but I believe more and more ARE listening. I see your courage and it always gives me a sliver of hope.
Its hard. Ive been following the climate crisis/global warming emergency for over 15 years. Got politically active for 4 years - helping establish an independent political party (Independents for Climate Action Now) which eventually folded before last election due to Lib Govt sneakily changing the membership requirements in order to wipe out small parties, but not before I believe we were influential in connecting the dots and helping plant seeds for the much better supported Teals Independent movement.
But exhaustion and frustration take its toll. The 'Biz as usual' world, the online troll armies dictating how to think, relationship turmoil, moving from my home town etc etc...sucked my 60yr old energy but as the dust settles, I know I will find another niche to protest against our "leaders" apathy and blind idiocy, once again. Gotta go down fighting dont we?
Hope you find the right apartment and sacred space for you soon.
I think being FOR Climate solutions creates more energy for the same, but being Against Capitalism per se zaps your energy. Maybe your focus could be redirected?
I'd love to hear Sarah's thoughts on this, but throwing in my two cents worth – I think that once you start to understand how capitalism influences everything in our supposed democracy (eg. that even government policy in influenced more by corporate agendas that the will of the people), you also start to see that most of the proposed 'solutions' to climate change only serve to benefit capitalism and will not get us anywhere near where we need to be if we're serious about maintaining a habitable planet. It therefore becomes difficult to propose solutions that don't first require the dismantling of capitalism. I do think, though, that we need to spend more time dreaming, thinking and talking about what kind of world we want to build after the (inevitable) fall of capitalism.
Firstly, very excited for your travelling adventures Sarah! Wishing you an inspired time. Some things I believe are not being thought through or properly challenged (and the increasing tendency to self-censor): gender ideology and new accompanying laws that do away with parental consent for medical intervention of minors. As Camille Paglia said: "anyone who collaborates with the intrusion of a developing mind and body is committing child abuse." Another thing is childhood vaccines, and medical coercion, and our unwillingness to at least question them, or allow heteredox views without immediately discrediting them as "anti-vax". And lastly, blind faith in authority ("the science") or experts (experts that agree with the chosen narrative) such as what we experienced during covid.
Sarah - Try and buy some bluetooth sleep buds. I’m a light sleeper too, living with teen/young adult kids who were destroying my sleep with their comings and goings from our family home. Then I discovered Bose sleep buds which have changed my life - noisy holiday rentals, traffic, neighbouring parties, none of it is an issue any more. I’m on my second pair. Better sleep, better peace of mind. Not cheap but what price good sleep!
Sarah, I wish there were answers to the questions. It is easy to fall into fear,and forget to live the fullest life we can. D
A comment on anemoia....
I have been having some really frustrating conversations with my Dad of late (I've had to move back home due to illness...which I suspect is somewhat caused by the despair and anxiety I have been feeling around the state of the world for a few years now) and the article about ambiguous grief really summed up what I've been trying to say to him. I've been trying to say that young people's poor mental health is due to a grieving, knowing that their future looks a lot worse than their past with a greater certainty than previous generations have felt on such a large scale. His argument is always that 'life is always a cycle' and that 'everyone thought the world was going to end during the Cold War'. I've always argued that its access to information that is different now, that we simply cannot escape ever hearing about it. He simply does not get why me and my siblings are really struggling to make our way in the world and I have just had to give up trying. He wants to continue living in his bubble and I feel that this is representative of a lot of people, particularly of that generation, who just want their nice retirement and not to think about it. I feel there is too little wisdom in old age to help the younger generations navigate what is to come. We are mostly on our own it feels. I've been thinking about this a lot because I've been looking into Aboriginal spirituality, and indigenous spiritual practices generally, to try and make sense of it all. I cannot even begin to imagine the depths of the grief they must be feeling around all this...that the knowledge they have cultivated for so long is continually being dismissed and lost.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/185215224806
I use these 🙂
Hi Sarah, I wear noise cancelling earplugs every night. Cancels out barking dogs, everything really. You get used to them and it becomes comforting. Noisy cities!! 🙂
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/185215224806