Dark Matter Labs' Indy Johar joins us to chat through the horrific "no viable pathways" thesis, how long we've got, plus how we personally cope with our predicament.
I’ve recently returned home (New Zealand) from a trip in America. I was in the States on voting day and spoke with a few people. What became apparent was that violence was definitely on the table for ‘both sides’. I sat on a domestic US flight next to a retired American woman, who described feeling so nervous about the potential violence - that she, at 67, went out and purchased a firearm. Spoke with another American woman on flight bound for NZ who described being ecstatic about the results and truly believed that the ‘savvy businessman’ now in power was going to fix their country. Her and her husband are currently in NZ, touring around. She asked about life here in NZ, and confessed her only understanding of things was being aware of the Ozone layer (or lack of). Little did she, or I know, that a day after they drove off in their camper a protest march of predominantly thousands of Māori (indigenous people of NZ) blocked roads, flooding public transport and walked to our nations Parliament. I left the US witnessing political unrest, and an underlying ‘hum’ of violence to arrive home to NZ to something truly significant. While the protest (Hīkoi) is peaceful, it has promoted a flood of strong emotions, viral videos, potential division and a general sense of unease. I always enjoy listening to your podcasts Sarah, and attempt to synthesis new learnings from the many wonderful experts you have. This episode is powerful and Indy’s words “given words to what I was feeling” ring true for me. I am a Teacher, currently out of the classroom - as waking up to the state of our world while working in our education system over the covid pandemic was too much for me, then. I’ve been building my own resilience and working on my well-being in order to clarify how I can be of value in the future. Thank you for your work. You add so much value and forever promote new learning for me and many more. Kia Ora. Mel.
gosh Mel, that's a powerful juxtaposition. The fact that the Ozone layer (the issue from at least 10 years ago) is their most recent update on NZ.
BTW, one of the most heartening/revealing things I note in this community - the number of teachers engaged in this topic. You are all at the coal face in a very real and important way.
I think this is what is most appropriate right now, building our resilience and our worth. So that we do not descend into violence within ourselves , within our families and within our communities.
Hi Mel. It's funny, but my daughter recently returned from a science conference in NZ (first trip there), and apart from the stunning landscapes, the thing she raved about the most was the fantastic way your country has navigated it's relationship between Indigenous people and the "colonisers" (what description is best here? Ancestors of invaders?). She definitely thought Australia could learn so much about Indigenous rights and respect from NZ - what a tragedy if this is lost, and not built upon further. In fact, it's probably a good example of Indy's proposed value quantification of things (where AI can do good, I suspect). Indigenous self-determination, etc., make NZ look good. That helps tourism. Visitors potentially think it's a safe, thoughtful, 'advanced' country when they see old and new cultures peacefully, almost cheerfully, co-existing. I imagine no one has calculated the economic value of this, but it must be substantial?
Yes, I hear you. Australia’s indigenous do not have a Treaty. NZs founding document has played an integral part in ‘balancing’ relations with my ancestors (Colonising British). Though, it’s extremely complex and flawed. I was glued to the events over the last week, and felt a familiar level of ‘shame’ about historical happenings. I live in the South Island in a predominantly ‘white’ community and over the years have been disappointed with interactions with students and families when I used Te Reo in the classroom. Yes, some of NZ is fair, kind and respectful - and the other end of the race relation spectrum exists. I’ve watched Māori unite as community during this hīkoi and it’s impressive. And, yes, the economic value of kiwi culture has been activated for many decades, sadly damaging some of our natural environment and often missing the deeper/spiritual connection of people and land. There’s a lot of ‘tokenism’ My feeling is that the new generations are savvy, intelligent and aware of the importance of taking back agency. I’m confident there will be more protests. More disruption…..like the rest of the world. Perhaps this is NZs version of the shift.
Guess the reason for posting after listening to this episode was to say “it’s happening everywhere“ -various forms of collapse / restructuring. I used to think NZ was a sleepy second cousin that would ride out the global storm in seclusion. Don’t think that now. I also believe that we colonials could do well to push pause, slow down and look for answers in indigenous practices.
Really good points, Mel. My earlier post to you mentioned surface level impressions, but of course reality is far more nuanced. I apologise to everyone for my comment about the "value" of culture to NZ sounding flippant - definitely didn't mean to disregard the racism, violence, and othering that underpins Australia and NZ's recent histories and structures, thereby affecting these cultures.
I also just listened to Indy's ABC Big Ideas talk that Sarah linked for us, and like you, he suggests that running away to NZ won't mean escaping what's happening elsewhere. We are just too interconnected, and interdependent.
A US friend of mine commented after the election that in many ways the result was a relief - because he knew if Trump hadn't won the country would have exploded into anger and violence. That was very telling for me.
Yes, I felt same. A Harris win would also have delayed what I think is quite inevitable for America...a folding in on itself. Trump is surfacing it faster.
This takes how I felt after the Meg Wheatley episode to a whole other level. I think you were wise to issue your warning and it's also very generous of you to offer this space to people who need to process it.
I'm currently sitting in the "fuck it all" headspace and I know I need to allow myself to stay here for a few days until I figure out what's on the other side for me.
I walked up the street to buy my groceries and it's a beautiful sunny day and there's people everywhere laughing and sitting at outdoor cafes enjoying themselves and I felt like Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 watching the children in the playground.
I think I will just continue on with what I've been doing anyway as I am making some major life changes.
I need to build offline community and spend time in nature.
Indy's thoughts are very interesting and ring true for me and he's an amazingly intelligent person, but I struggle sometimes with lots of jargon and "heady" conversation. Even with you, Sarah, interjecting and breaking it down I still struggled. I will go back and listen to it and see if I can get more of an understanding of what's being discussed with a second listen.
I love Nate Hagen's podcasts and can only just grasp the concepts he discusses. But I understand that he is talking to a particular audience. I feel that the message (as well as our lives) needs to be simplified. You do a great job Sarah, with simplifying the message. I'm not sure why I struggled so much to understand a lot of what was being said, other than the scary timeline prediction.
I have felt in the past when "experts" or even intelligent commentators make it all a bit "heady" and wordy it leaves people such as myself behind. The message needs to be able to reach more people, but then maybe most people don't want to know.
Me too! I have had "Catch up SW" on my to do list for about 8 weeks. Sometimes, my brain needs to take a break and integrate all the new information it's received. I recently realised this is what was happening for me during these periods of overwhelm and I am starting to find ways to be kind & gentle to myself and my brain during this process instead of feeling annoyed at myself and worrying about not keeping up with the frantic onslaught of information constantly coming through.
I’m with you Karola..twisted my brain into a pretzel trying to follow Nate interviewing a fellow brainiac this week:) I’ve decided to leave certain knotty topics to them..I’m just emerging from my Fuck it all response to the US election, I’ve unsubscribed from most social media and news outlets, am focusing on slowing down, reading, nature and deepening ties within my local community. I do take heart in the comment section here, it all makes a difference. Take care
Bravo Jane...I'm going to come off social media when I can. For the moment I'm kind of contractually locked in with some of my projects. Def phasing out.
Yes this, I’m on my second listen. I feel like I need a lecture type slide to go with it for me to fully comprehend what’s being said. I think the thing that stood out to me was the “othering” concepts. I see it EVERYWHERE and I’m guilty of it myself. I sat in a sauna last night with a bunch of men who were talking of trump and climate hoaxes and sky news sitting next to my water bottle covered in free Palestine stickers. I said “it’s so hard to have conversations about these things anymore” and they all nodded and agreed (perhaps not for the same reasons I think it is hard) but yes we must try and put a pin in the “othering” we are all in this shitshow together.
I know what you mean about the lecture slide! I'm a very visual learner. I am trying hard to stop the othering in my own life. I didn't have the words for it until now!
I agree about the importance of how the message is carried: it's why I loved Sarah's earlier books and why the current serialisation is literally changing my life. I listened hard to this podcast without understanding all of it, not just because of the jargon but because so much of what we are all talking about feels almost beyond language, tenuous, felt rather than expressed. But I do think for the message to reach people, indeed for all of us here to be able to be messengers, we need a different language. I already plan to buy and gift copies of Sarah's book to some of my friends and family but it won't be enough. We're going to need so many more conversations and we need more people like Sarah who can express it in ways that feel real (and, dare I say, actionable!)
Ok a second listen with lots of rewinding and I have a much clearer understanding of the subject, the comments have helped too. Listening back I don't feel that there's too much jargon or wordiness, I think Indy is very clear and articulate. For me to absorb it all just took a couple of listens, I'm normally a visual learner. Thanks Sarah for this very informative and interesting episode.
I'm with you Karola, I struggled too. May need a second listen - I did half at 6am driving to work and half on the way home admittedly with a very fried brain!
Came hoping for some translation and thoughts in the comments here from much better brains than mine!
I love Nate Hagens too but have to pick and choose which topics/guests I commit to listening to. Have to bypass some that are beyond me! Often find his Frankly episodes, where he breaks thoughts or concepts down on his own better for me to take in.
I think Indy is very articulate and very good at communicating his ideas. A lot of what he talks about is emergent and that can take a bit of work for my brain to unpack. I am doing a bit of a deep dive into his work and it's so interesting. And yes he's brilliant! I feel like Sarah is a doing great work bringing all these great minds to our attention. Indy is someone whose work I may not have come across if it wasn't for Sarah.
Thank you both for your honesty and frankness. It didn’t scare me—well, the 5–10 years part did a little! But this conversation has lit a fire in me! No more fear about rocking boats with my words or work. This conversation was a call to the front line. And you’re right, Sarah. I believe part of that front line is helping people connect with the inner resources available to all of us—if we get our minds out of the way.
I know in my own life, if I hadn’t embarked on what Joseph Campbell calls the “inner journey”—had I not done the messy, hard, but ultimately liberating work of looking at my own sh*t—I know I’d be voiceless. But having walked that path, I see clearly now: the only way through is through. Through our individual and collective darkness, we can rediscover an inner wellspring of compassion, strength, resilience—and yes, love. Love for this beautiful blue dot floating in space. Love for each other.
And we no longer have the luxury (not that we ever did) of finding our own inner resolve/calm and then retreating to some island or cave to live in peace. Inner work and justice work, healing and service, the personal and the political—they must go hand in hand. But I believe the inner work must come first.
Because when we lead from the heart, we can vote for X without demonising those who vote for Y. We can call out injustice without dehumanising the other. We can stand for peace without berating those who don’t stand with us.
I’d love to hear thoughts on this idea—that individual healing can be a pathway to collective healing. Because if we lose our heart and humanity entirely in the sh*t show, what else is left? Returning to the heart is how I’m equipping myself—and my kids—for what lies ahead, and for what is already here.
And I love your framing - the inner and outer work must operate in tandem. It's not enough to go into a faux spiritual cocoon. Monks must come down from mountains!
Me, I am careful not to think I must do the inner healing BEFORE doing the outer work. One facilitates and assists the other. We do both at once...in a complex, whole dynamic. My activism has taken me to a personal peace and maturity I would not have got to without the challenge.
I really resonate with this Sarah. I call my work "love work" because it was born from a big life disruption, some introspection, some experiments at different things, back to spiritual / personal dev work, then finding my place and running with it. Even now, going from despair to action is a daily challenge and learning to live with that roller coaster is part of the ride of this thing called 'life'.
That's a great point, Sarah. Sometimes, I get stuck on the need to do the inner healing first. But we simply don't have time for that! 'One facilitates and assists the other'. I love this. Thanks for that a-ha moment!
Hi Sarah and Indy. Thank you for an utterly profound talk. I am so grateful to you both - for the topics discussed, for the honesty, and for the dignity with which you treat your audience. Despite the warning that the material would be confronting, and of course, it was, I unexpectedly finished the podcast with an overwhelming sense of gratitude. I hope others found Indy's innovative modelling and the work being done by Dark Matter Labs as important as I did.
I am lucky enough to have a family member who innately, unflinchingly views the world through a non-speciesist lens. They have taught me over the years to discard so many assumptions and biases, and to reframe my thinking. I am slowly learning. Hearing Indy describe the necessity of agency for all of the natural world is therefore inspiring, and if such things initially require a costing, or an economic context in order to be accepted by some societies, so be it. I suspect there would be very few redundant species, or landforms, or weather systems, etc. Similarly, assessing our lives and our consumption via the term "bio-nutrition" also makes perfect sense, especially when considering terra preta (another concept that is new to me, but fascinating). While such ideas do not diminish the tragedy of violence being inflicted upon human and non-human animals, environments, and cultures, they can prompt us to make more compassionate, considerate choices, which then potentially influence others to make more compassionate, considerate choices. As per Sarah's advice.
In the meantime, as always, the gutless thugs who hold the weapons also hold us by the throats. So I understand why Indy's scenarios all come up as terminal. Nevertheless, I hope some of us can muster the energy, and the creativity, and the intelligence, to promote Indy's suggested slingshot alternatives, for example. Aim for what's right, not what's inevitable.
Brilliant talk, Sarah. Thank you, as always
P.S. I actually searched "Indy Johar tshirt" after the podcast. Thank you for all the work you do, Indy!
Thank you for sharing this episode. I woke up despondent today about the global mess, so this episode was very timely. I sat with a colleague at work and we talked through this after we listened, as it directly relates in so many ways to the work we do (especially the food systems priority). It also validates so much of the thinking and talking we have done in work at community level in the South Pacific concerning what resilience actually is (and how we talk to our donors about this). I had a little cry at the end (because of the weight of the violence) and then took a deep breath and spent some time in reanimation of the trees and plants around me, glad for the reminder that everything we touch is “the work.”
Hi, I work in “knowledge and learning” (such a mouthful of a title) for an NGO called Live & Learn Environmental Education that is a network of locally registered non-profit organisations across the Pacific. We are very localised, working in a community-led way as much as possible for strengthened resilience to impact of climate change through ecosystem restoration or “nature-based solutions.” We also do water security work, and carbon/forest protection. For the past three years most of my time has been on a specific programme where we work with communities in 6 countries (including Vanuatu!) on integration of different ways of being/knowing in climate resilience approaches (in grant proposal speak we integrate “western” science and Indigenous knowledge in nature positive approaches to resilience). It’s messy, slow, everyone involved has different interpretations based on their different mindsets and history, etc (impact of colonisation and missionaries and modern economic pressures), but we are seeing slow transformation of the kinds discussed in the podcast. Reconnection with complete dependence on natural systems, acknowledgement and importance of tradition, local, Indigenous knowledge, etc. But every year the natural systems experience more stress, the natural cycles are changed, the storms are worse. https://livelearn.org/climate-resilient-islands/
Wow - what a brain Indy has! I do, however, have trouble with the mindset that thinks that the 'human machine arc' narrative is a good thing??? Maybe I misunderstood that line of argument.
Having said that, the thinking around food systems change is exactly where I'm at - funnily enough values-based supply chains is my thing!! The problem is, there's no money being invested in it right now. 20 years of activism in this space has yielded very few supporters. So, hearing him suggest that a lot of money is going to be invested in resilience is music to my ears!
I also love the examples of taking a grounded, local approach with local governments - very in line with the thinking of David Fleming. Thank you Sarah for pushing Indy to reveal what we can be doing and 'being' and 'becoming' individually as we face these multiple horizons.
I hear you. I can't tell you how many times people have looked at me after explaining what I do and saying, "that's cute, but....." Obviously I haven't communicated the message clearly enough, but also sometimes ears aren't ready to hear things too...
I too had to listen to the podcast twice to get a handle on the breadth of the matter. I am also reading "Sandtalk" by Tyson Yunkaporta. This book has broken the ground for me regarding a shift in the type of thinking that a human is capable of. I can see parallels between indigenous thoughts/values and the new capital Indy talks of. I feel surprisingly hopeful for greater community connections and increased consciousness. I am resting in this.
I've also been working in the values based space for over a decade now, specifically in values based communications. It's still an uphill battle, everyone sees the world through a marketing lens and looks for quick wins (even the well meaning organisations and programs), with the language continually used entrenching extractivism further.
Would love to learn more about values-based supply chains, especially around food systems!
I agree with the lack of progress in value based value chains. In my work I find it bonkers that this isn’t a given or foundational thinking when doing value chain analysis. It’s so nature blind and arrogant to ignore (externalise) this!
I feel that values based systems will be incorporated in almost all larger systems. As the violence increases (passive aggressive and outwardly aggressive). Businesses, farms, communities, organisations which hold values and accountability as precious as a bottom line. Will be the only ones worth investing in or left standing.
Wow, what an incredible episode! I’ll need to listen again, especially to the second half where Indy explains the pathways to fully understand it, but I thoroughly enjoyed learning those ideas around nature having agency (I fist pumped when you two were talking about this!), the concept of bionutritive vs biodegradable (mind blowing!), and how humans are integral to rebuilding nature, like the way we cultivated the Amazon (Jem Bendell talks about this in his book too, and how as a keystone species we have this ability).
I feel somewhat prepared for whatever lies ahead and have intuitively felt this decade-long timeline. Being part of this community and listening to the Wild podcast has been transformative, helping me shift focus toward more meaningful activities (nature, connection, play) and detaching from all the messy, unproductive noise and consumption cycle (esp of media). It’s not easy, though - there’s a constant pull from the capitalist driven, mafia-like vortex (to borrow from The Godfather: “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!”).
So I'm at peace with whether I’m a victim or a survivor of what's to come. C’est la vie. Taking a more stoic approach helps me, as does thinking in we vs me terms (if we or nature survives, great - I'm not all that important in the grand scheme of things), and in the meantime, focusing on showing up in ways that reflect my values and humanity - embodying that warrior of the human spirit as Meg Wheatley so beautifully puts it.
I feel very similarly to you, Melissa... I especially feel exactly what you say in your last paragraph. But I waiver from this feeling of stoic peace at times, when I think of my children (aged 14 and 15). If I can't save them from what's to come (which obviously I can't) then I wish i could transfer my feelings of peace and stoicism to them, so that they too can rise above the situation when the time comes. But I've not yet worked out how to do this...
A great interview in so many ways, my main take away was Indy talking about the priority of changing the value of a human, in our thinking and in our economies.
The historical and current perspective is that humans are part of the extractive economy. They’re to exploit and only have value as worker or consumer.
This is a tangent, but what is happening in Gaza is the visible systemic violence that Indy talks about. It is demonstrating that this ethnic group has no value , rights or even access to food. This de humanises us all, as it is normalising genocide and violence against innocent civilians, especially against children…Gaza is setting a precedent , a new low in (evil) morality and the devaluing of life , that plays into the increase in violence Indy predicts.
That is why we must do all we can to stop it , for those whose life’s are being destroyed now and for those who will be next. Raising the value of humans means everyone , regardless of location, ethnicity, gender or religion….this is something we can do today ❤️🩹
Yes! And the points Indy and Sarah made about ‘othering’ and how we need to look to Indigenous wisdoms on land stewardship. All the years of oppression of Indigenous people, and ignoring their relationship to land has come back to bite us! We reap what we sow…
Thank you for this interview and the space to process it all. Honestly, I found this refreshingly honest and to the point. We do have a duty here. Although I always have in the back of my mind an interview with Tyson Yunkaporta from 2021, where he said something like "our people have lived through many apocalypses". And I'm filled with a sense of deep time and a reminder of what true resilience looks like.
Great interview with a fascinating gentleman who has some genuinely interesting insights. Overall, I didn't find it scary or confronting, just really interesting. However, and perhaps I'm not quite getting it, but his message did seem to me to be quite optimistic and even, dare I say it, somewhat unrealistic.
I can't see for a moment how the global capitalist systems are going to legislate for the sovereignty or autonomy of trees or eco-systems when it will not accord sentient beings such as non-human animals any such rights. Imagine for a moment any political party taking that into an election cycle.
Despite decades of legislative changes the rates of land clearing in Australia continue to grow - do we really think that the people and corporations engaged in land clearing are going to have a sudden change of heart? The same with ideas about re-negotiating notions of human worth, human potential and capacities - meanwhile in the US the human rights of 50% of the population has taken a five decades step backwards. If the rights of women are globally under threat, I can't see a sudden renaissance in human rights taking place any time soon.
I know Indy was suggesting that there are actions we could take in order to arrive at a different future before that future is foisted upon us, but I'd just point to the entire debacle of climate change and environmental destruction to suggest that's simply not going to happen. I remember seeing the cover story of 'Discover' science magazine in the 1980's - 'The Greenhouse Effect' (a term that has gone out of fashion now) warning us of the consequences of runaway climate change and global heating. Forty years later, the warnings weren't heeded, too little was done, too late and now the future we were warned about is being foisted upon us, whether we like it or not. It seems that change will not occur until change is forced upon us.
I suspect also, that even if attempts have been made to put in place the new systems of thought Indy was talking about they'll be stampeded in the panic and disruption as the broad mass of humanity realise the predicament they're in and rush for the lifeboats only to find there are none. At that point, I wonder how resilient the new social systems and ideas will be - the saying, 'everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face' springs to mind. We're already seeing a strong turn towards the authoritarian right when confronted with mounting social, economic and environmental pressures.
So, an interesting interview, but I feel his solutions depended upon a far too optimistic assessment of human nature and the likelihood that people will voluntarily change before that change is forced upon them. In that respect, I think your own term, the 'shitification' of things is a more apt descriptor of the trajectory we face, that things are just going to get shittier and shittier, that we're going to go through some truly shitty times and eventually arrive at a point where, for the people left, things are less shit but still pretty crap.
I'm not sure he was saying the whole world will pursue this path. One of the pathways will. These will all happen at the same time and the interconnected systems will combine. But I'll ask Indy to chime in here.
I agree. I found it quite a frustrating listen because it was so vague. My takeaway was “it will happen because it must happen,” but that’s not how the world (or anything) works. If the options are close-to-total annihilation or these four paths Indy spells out, my money is on annihlation because the late capitalist death cult rewards only short-term profit and will exploit/kill/irreconcilably harm anything and anyone that gets in its way.
I would love to be wrong (god, let me be wrong), but I just didn’t find anything compelling to argue against it here.
I agree with you Christopher except I thought he was kind of outlining what would have to happen for the slingshot and saying that it probably basically was not going to happen without extreme violence and termination of most of the human race even as some parts of humanity attempted to enact them. I got the impression that only on the very long term (“geological timescale”) the humans who survived the “terminal” scenario would adopt these new ways of being.
Wow! Such a gripping interview. So on one hand, what a shock to hear this stuff. But really, isn’t it just saying out loud what we already know, deep down, viscerally?
What it seems is, we are on the precipice of the biggest fight of our lives to save ourselves and do what is “right”. Not in that shallow way that children talk about “right and just” (Harari puts it well in the book Sapiens that these things are something that humans have made up to keep order, a shared myth). I mean something much deeper (which get but struggle to explain).
And yet, I agree with you Christopher Lee….I feel that humans are just too greedy and power hungry to take the “risk” to move away from this stupid “zero sum game” capitalist life that we are trapped in.
I was hiking when I listened to this interview which in some ways really dialled things up for me. I was tuned in!
Right, now I need a cuppa tea and a lie down so I can process some of this!
I listened to that episode with my whole body. Thank you. I felt like how I have been feeling for the last couple of years was massively validated. My body knows that things are bad and are going to continue to get bad and sure that doesn’t sound hopeful but I am also no longer interested in hope, just love. Love requires action, hope can feel quite passive.
My own personal journey has been one of retraining as a trauma informed somatic therapist and embodiment facilitator. That whole episode spoke to so many of my experiences. The more embodied I become the more I feel into the interconnectedness of everything and the more my heart breaks and the more I want to do everything I can.
The topic around animism or agency to nature as it was framed in the podcast is something that has become bigger and bigger for me as I really feel into that connection. I talk to trees, I thank the sea when I swim, I try to attune myself to the rhythm of the stones. There is so much grief. And I really do feel like one thing I can offer is grief work. Because so many people when they awaken to this reality are going to be overwhelmed with grief. It’s the avoidance of that which is probably causing the most amount of apathy.
I saw Robin Wall Kimmerer speak earlier in the year. Someone asked her where do we find hope and she said only once we can grieve will we find hope.
Thanks for your reflection, Ami. I really resonate with your sentiments about animism and giving agency to nature. I live in East Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory, where Yolŋu people maintain an enduring and vibrant relationship with everything. In Yolŋu culture, everything is kin—there is no separation.
In my work, I work closely with Yolŋu leaders to deliver cross-cultural competency training, and a story often shared during these sessions comes to mind. It involves the late Rev. Dr. Gondarra, a respected Yolŋu leader who used to deliver the same training across the NT. During one session on kinship, a participant—a self-described "salt of the earth" Aussie hippie—interjected, saying he felt a philosophical connection with Yolŋu people because he too believed in the idea of nature as "Mother Earth."
Rev. Dr. Gondarra responded by gently but firmly correcting him, explaining that he had missed the point. For Yolŋu people, there isn’t a single, overarching concept of Mother Earth. Instead, every part of the landscape is understood through a complex web of kinship relationships. For example, the beach to the left might be his mother’s country, the bush leading toward the river systems his uncle’s country, and the island out at sea his father’s country.
This story has stayed with me as a profound reminder of the depth and complexity of cultural and social relationships with the world. While the concept of Mother Earth can foster compassion and connection with the non-human world, I think there is an opportunity to expand our understanding further. Embracing or at least pondering on a kinship framework like that of Yolŋu people invites us into a richer, more intricate relationship with the landscape—one that deepens our sense of belonging and responsibility within an interconnected web of life.
I find it enthralling to witness myself go through similar journey to the hippie kid. I'm only getting the full weight of what Indigenous People's talk about from going down deep into pain. No doubt that's how they got here, too.
I just i'v'd Vanessa Andreotti and she talks about this...it runs next week
Yes this. Same journey. We really need spaces for grief. I attended a grief ceremony last night held by Palestinian & Israeli artists and musicians (ripples collective) and there was about 200 of us grieving with them through the sharing of their stories, music and movement. This is what we need, spaces to dive into our pain and the collective pain so it can transform us.
Thank you for sharing this, Ami, language is indeed important. We use ‘Mother Country’ as an umbrella term, as the holder term for all those kinship interrelationships in a given country. The term or collective noun was given to us by Aboriginal elder friends.
We avoid the word ‘landscape’ as for us it takes things back into the mind of surveyor, of surveillance, of standing above the land looking down or out. The tradition of ‘landscape painting’ where the word landscape derives, comes from the aristocratic belief in ownership of land. It is, for us, a disconnecting word.
Mmmm complex web of kinship. Yes it’s exactly that. When people reference Mother Nature it still feels like a duality, like it’s something separate from us and it’s not. We are it and we are a part of this incredible system.
You only need to look at our bodies to understand this. Like the breath cycle is an act of reciprocity with plants, lights and minerals.
I think you are on the right track Sarah re your question about your “place” in all of this.
How to make a living out of this will arise.
As I speak many come to mind.
Do you know those old Aerobic Oz Style Shows, live to air (or maybe pre recorded), everyone turns in on the Tele and does their morning exercise.
Anyway, the modern equivalent comes to mind.
This community is one place, daily live vipassana , where you can sit in silence and observe yourself , while observing everyone else out there. Collective sitting in what the fuck just is.
I have a business idea for online group and solo therapy.
Your collapse book, and your fuck I need a walk book.
Tech can help spread the effects and also minimise the impacts.
Some mornings I wake up and meditate and exercise and then sit on subs and send out my random musings. It helps.
I ask though Sarah, can you double check your internal biases, is there a tendency towards doom (or maybe I see possibly a delusional optimism like mine 🥸). I have both, so they kind of balance it all out.
Or rather , I think you are the canary in the coal mine. Your experiences and physiology mean you had to give up earlier than everyone else. You broke first. And from there had to look at the reality of life.
And your ability with words and communication are allowing you to share your discoveries with a large audience.
Resilience is key right now too.
I found that my own resilience was lacking , and could not keep up with my own self violence, nor the violence of my daughter. In response to the uncertainty of relational collapse, adolescence and societal collapse.
Glad that you’re taking a break from some projects , and seem to be building the battery of the future.
Personally , and I know that you are exploring relational resilience and health. Which translates to all relationships (ecological, financial, global).
Honesty is key, and the willingness to be selfish and ask to be alone , or also to be selfish and ask for togetherness. In order to manage the emotional and physical load. And also to allow the gaps in time and space for new ways to emerge.
These are the arcs , which accelerate and build things greater and faster than the sum of the parts or individuals involved.
As they hold more power than molochian arcs that we have been exploring previously.
Your brain goes on some wild, fun tangents, Steve! Collapse Oz Style...!!!
I'm going to run your "fuck I need a walk book" line past my publisher as a potential title!!!
Thanks for challenging me on your question.I challenge myself on it often. I don't tend to preference doom. I'm mostly a very optimistic person. I don't give up. I fight because I believe goodness is the vibe of the universe. However I am a very pragmatic person and I prefer to veer on the side of what is likely and to be ready for it. I think it's worth exploring fully the expert- established worst-case and really-very-probable (but not locked in yet) scenarios...with eyes wide open...so that we KNOW what could happen and can bear it in mind, try our best to avoid it etc. This is what the human negativity bias exists for - to wake us up before the pot hits boiling point.
Then I pull back and try to operate in what, either way, WILL transpire. In our current case, it is nigh guaranteed things will be really really shit and hard and despairing going forward. I think we can say this with 99.9% certainty. How hard, we don't know (and this is also what I focus on ...dealing with this not knowing). And, so, we get ready for this decline.
I then bundle up my natural optimism and fight and put it to emotionally and spiritually comprehending the role of despair, of hard times, of cycles of collapse and creation.
Was discussing with my partner about the tendency to scroll , and that it is just the same as having the radio on in the background , or the TV back in the day
We all want to know that “someone” is there
A remedy against the abyss of existential crisis
And made me think about those old shows, and the morning shows, connection
Have often thought about running a live stream on my instagram in the mornings
Just me meditating for 15 and maybe a poem if one comes
Soothing for me, and so many lonely souls out there
and yes
100 %
Like the scouts say
Prepare for the worst , expect the best
It is not easy to see things clearly and want to share them
Especially with so much noise and uncertainty in the day to day already
I have not sensed any doom porn from you, just questions. And people are searching for those questioning things. That’s why Trump got in via his ruse , and the narcissistic conspirators are running wild.
Keep going , the noise will fade away or will get so noisy people will be looking for the calm farm
Interesting observstion Steve... that 'scrolling' is like a modern tech version of having the radio or tv on in the background - we all want to know someone is there.
I'm new to the discussion… I've been a fan of your work for a while, read your books and have been listening along for over a year. I find great solace in your work. I apologise in advance for the long/ multiple questions, I suppose I'm at a bubbling point with all these ideas and I agree that it is a lonely place.
Is what Indy is saying, that he doesn't foresee through his own analysis, that there is a way society collapses and that doesn't unfurl into our own termination? Whereas in past conversations you've had, there does seem to be an indication of some sort of rebuilding from collapse... Jem Bendell, as a piece of advice, talked of relying less on money for example, to sustain ourselves (if he runs a charitable farm in Indonesia perhaps he sees this as some way of relying more on the land for sustenance?). Similar to the ideas of the Great Simplification, that there isn't necessarily hope of stopping societal collapse, but perhaps there is hope of rebuilding something thereafter, that could actually be far more in line with what's good for us and the planet? Is Indy essentially saying society cannot collapse because this will destroy us? I understand he's talking about some ideas of how to stop this. I can't quite get my head around his ideas, I will keep trying and read some more of his work… But the complexity of all of this is what worries me, do we not need to galvanise a mass of people to turn collapse around? Doesn't this task require a great mass of people to understand the problem and thus task ahead? If I understand correctly, he's saying those with an investment in material goods, like soil, are starting to wake up to the fragility of the current systems.That those in insurance and banking have a vested interest in not letting collapse happen? Is this where we pin our hope, that those with the power to do something about it actually will? I may have misunderstood.
I totally agree with the point on the importance of indigenous knowledge moving forward. I believe a very key part of why we have ended up in this clusterfuck, as I know you refer to it, is because we have strayed from our evolutionary origins; of being in tune and a part of nature. This being healthier for us and the planet and needing to work communally to sustain ourselves, therefore not being so individualised. But how do we get to these solutions posed?
I'm not sure I can see a way that we can implement the changes necessary to stop what will unfurl if we continue down the path we are on. I feel deeply that current forms of power systems would need to be outstripped, overrun. They're not going to do what's needed, bankers, capitalists, they've fuelled all of this. I do not think they will do what's ultimately best for the collective. So I ask, how do we take power away from those so unwilling to do what is so necessary so that we can? I personally write a lot about this, but I can't see how it's possible. I've been wrangling with this for a decade as an activist and it comes down to this - I can't see that there is a vessel at the moment capable of taking down national and international capitalist power structures in order to change course. I don't think sound science presented calmly to those in power will ever work to bring about the change needed - the slingshot away from collapse. The vessels of organisation that ordinary people had historically to enact change against the powerful are fairly dismembered. I'm in the UK and the unions have actively squashed what potential there has been of grassroots working class organisation in the last 10 years… as has the labour party.
I mean, not to jump too far ahead here but imagine if there was such a vessel that started to organise against the UK government. First of all, the UK press is viciously right wing and this organisation for the people and planet would be discredited (see what happened to Jeremy Corbyn and also Extinction Rebellion being considered a terrorist organisation in the Prevent Agenda). Then, if that didn't work to dissuade the mass of people from supporting it, we would be talking about violence. How could a genuinely radical new party or union or any organisation willing to fight for what is needed, not incite violence from the ruling classes? Those running the world have too much power, too much technology. It almost feels like things need to collapse in on themselves for us to have a chance at running the world's resources in a way that's fair for people and the planet. We can't destabilise them, I think it will take fragmentation of land, people, economic systems going bust and governments not being able to govern their people anymore...I think it will take that for communities to form that are capable of running resources in a non extractive and democratic way.... because our survival post collapse will depend on it.
People say we are too selfish to have such communities but I agree with Karl Marx in that he observed that human nature is dictated by the economics of society. Capitalism forces competition and individualism for people to meet their needs and so greed and selfishness flourish. When you must meet your needs through communal labour in order to survive (of course we do that now but abstractly), the values that foster a community environment flourish. How do we get there without dying trying?
I personally moved away from devoting all my time and working life to activism 3 years ago now. I moved from the city and retrained in bushcraft and outdoor guiding. I now run a not for profit teaching low income women these skills. I did this in a large part for myself, I am better out in nature, I believe we all are. But also, there was and is a growing part of me that did it because I wanted to prepare myself. I felt that I needed to know how to try to live off and with the land for survival. I'm spending next year learning how to sustainably farm in the Hebrides. Not because I want to run away, but because I worry there will be a time very soon that money will mean nothing and knowing how to live off the earth will be necessary once again. Is this doomsday preppy, or a worthwhile endeavour…. I feel in my gut I know the answer but I literally cannot have the conversation without someone asking me where my tin foil hat is.
Thanks in advance for your time to read this,
Best wishes.
P.s. I will be starting to read your book, so I'm sorry if you answer all this there, I needed some time but I have arrived mentally now.
Thank you for such a beautiful, well thought out response. You raise questions that have been swirling around in my head since the interview but couldn't quite articulate.
Oh dear, as much as I went to listen to this I’m not sure I can hold space for the realities mentioned…..I know in my heart that timeline feels true, but what that truth looks like I do not know, it still feels too scary to look at
I’d love to ask, in general, how everyone copes with the predicted reality that we may only have 5,10 or 15 years left before…..? I’ve read the chapter are we all going to die, and this interview kind of makes me feel that’s the case? I know none of us know what our personal time lines will be, we never have, life’s unpredictable. This is a massive call and timely reminder to live in the present, but I’m finding it hard to wrap my head around these predictions. I guess I’m stuck in the overwhelm space, not sure how to move to the acceptance space. Any suggestions would be welcomed 🥹
Something that helps me is to remember that the only time that is real is the present. Everything is predictions and modelling, we don’t know for certain (even if likely). BUT I can live today (as much as our stupid systems let me) with the values that should be our foundations. These are the “dark matter” things we don’t question or value that are behind many choices or systems. So the things Indy mentioned as actions are things you can do now. Soil, food, community, are a great place to start. Sometimes the overwhelm is from a twisted obligation that you as an individual must know, think, care, DO EVERYTHING. But we don’t. We just have to do our bit and trust that others are doing their bit - like Indy said, the work is everywhere. Talking with like minded people helps too.
Thank you Michelle - this is a helpful salve and framing, I can definitely feel the liberation this type of thinking creates, fighting back against the systems that don’t serve us to live a meaningful life.
And a good reminder we can’t individually carry the weight of this all, I just need to find some local Londoners who are engaging in this space :)
Because none of us really know what the future holds, I'm trying to spend my time on the things that really matter to me: spending time with my adult kids and really being present in the moment with them, being in nature, simplifying my life as much as possible, consuming less, figuring out ways I can be of service, making sure I conduct myself with dignity and integrity (to the best of my ability).
If you don’t mind me asking, do you discuss this topic with your adult children? I’ve got a 26 year old son and I’ve never mentioned collapse to him and I swing between guilt and anxiety as a result..
Yes I do. Your son may already have an underlying feeling of what's coming. None of my kids were completely surprised. I have been fortunate to have always had great communication with my kids and we talk about many subjects, so I just very gradually and very subtly introduced my thoughts in a conversational manner. I kind of drip fed my thoughts over a six month period. I haven't discussed how dire I think it will get but they know enough that we can have ongoing conversations.
I think it's really hard to know how to handle the idea of collapse with our loved ones. I understand the guilt and anxiety as a parent! It feels like it's never ending at times.
I find it hard to combine the complete overwhelm of trying to mother a little kid, write a third book, keep doing meaningful environment centred journalism, keep running my tree planting group, and keep a home, with the idea of trying to simplify life and smell the roses while we can. I’m getting the message “honour your work” and be a community leader, but all those things seem part of that, but are also not conducive to calming anyone’s farm. I get that it’s a personal thing, but … I keep wondering if in 10 years I’ll regret not simply stopping it all and enjoying life with my little one while the world was still a relatively sweet and easy place in our pocket of it. Bah, I know we must just keep going, but it’s somewhat counter to the sense of relief I was getting with earlier chapters. Now after this podcast I feel like the pressure has returned tenfold.
I think it is definitely important to enjoy your relatively sweet and easy pocket of earth, while it still is. To me that is honouring it.
Simplifying doesn't need to mean depriving and shouldn't mean ignoring. It can be easy to get swept up in the idea of 'one day I'll be forced to go without xyz, so I may as well start now' or being so busy looking out for tomorrow and working to safeguard it, that we miss today.
If we are blessed to have a peaceful pocket of the universe to spend our days in, we should enjoy it wholeheartedly. The tricky bit is balance, isn't it.. Can we do both? Work and rest, prepare and be present, fight and love.
Perhaps there needs to be an acknowledgement of the love and presence and rest not just being of value, but it IS the work too.
I feel pretty devastated by the prospect of maybe not living long enough to hit menopause; I'd only heard awful things about it until recently. Now more and more women have come out describing it as "a second childhood" or some kind of a transition into full not-giving-a-fuck-about-anything-that-isn't-deeply-important-or-caring-what-people-think witchery/wisdom attainment. Sounds like a hoot...and now I wonder if I will ever get to experience that *tears forming as I'm writing this.*
I'm feeling the same. I think I will wait a little while and read some comments first. I've read your warnings Sarah (thank you), so perhaps the hard part is already done, I'm not sure. Need to let that sit for a little while first.
I’m finding it hard to hear the word at 1.11.48 where Indy says educators can try to release a thesis on how to “unlock XXX human value …” can anyone help?
I'm most struck by the reflections on this comment thread and even those shared by you, Sarah.
Firstly, I've come across Indy's work before and am usually given a forewarning, similar to the one you so carefully laid out. His thought leadership is generally known to be "big picture" and jargon heavy. All good, right? What was so interesting to observe was the speed at which he linearly jammed his way through the various scenarios and how you coaxed him back into this dance of humanising and translation. You were the yin to his yang, when in many circles I'm sure Indy is usually the expert in bringing people to a systems level awareness -- as are you. In any case, I bring this up because I'm at the beginning of playing my first role as the yang in a circle of yins, after a long career of working in exactly the opposite role.
I found his reflections back to Iain McGilchrist's interview were most compelling. In terms of capability building, it's this ability to go back and forth that seems to be getting harder and harder. For many people I know, their wake up call was born out of an episode of some sort (schizophrenia, psychadelics, insomnia, near-death, etc. etc.) And I can't help but think that the rise of ADHD/neurodivergence is a crisis of our modern society not allowing space for us to go as deep and wide as we need. I do my best work in the middle of the night between toddler wakings. How do we hold these spaces for people early in their journeys AND the thought leaders? I'd say your podcast was the first mainstream accessible interview I've heard with Indy and it's those thought partnerships that we need right now.
As for the 4 pathways, this was new for me and gives me a sense of relief that OF COURSE the US will only continue doubling down on the nuclear path. I also deeply believe in local experimentation as a path to glocal dissemination (Side note: I was surprised to read in the comments that you hadn't already concluded the same? The Berkana Institute was the first organisation I remember seeing with global thought leaders jumping ship to go local. I wonder if your "local is too small" mindset comes from being a global nomad. No need to dive into this, but I am deeply curious about place especially in the context of future mass migration). I digress.
When it comes to funding, on the ground there seems to be competitive factions, both ideologically and in terms of people scrambling for the same pots. The funders who were enabling agroecology (not viable within our capitalist frameworks) are now stepping down...to live a simpler life? In the UK, the builders of the agroecology movements are trying to figure out what to do. Meanwhile, there's a shift towards decolonisation, racial justice, and repatriation work. SO SO important. And as we're trying to shift towards more democratic decision making, it seems inevitable that social justice and land justice will become the next duality. They are OF COURSE the same thing. But in a transition of slingshot speeds, we do not have the time to be yinning and yanging about.
I think the idea of the 4 pathways as inevitable, discrete, and divergent is interesting but difficult for me to wrap my brain around. Renaissance Philanthropy, maybe the biggest philanthropic manifestation of the Musk/nuclear mindset, has just landed in the UK and will soon be vying for the deep pockets of private wealthholders. Investing in moonshots isn't bad, but it is expensive and seems well taken care of by capitalism itself. How to make sure wealth redistribution actually centres the quietest voices, the agents of nature, and the voices of the global south? Won't that be another game of moloch muddling the 4 pathways back into one?
Uff. Insomnia left brain + right brain liminal space downloaded. Thank you so so much for the space to do this.
Insominia as a pathway to waking up...yes...never heard anyone else feel the same.
The jumping ship to local...Yes, a very recent revelation...much like Meg et al (Berkana), it's an adjustment borne out of moving with the shift from "being able to possibly fix this global issue (with global solutions)" to "shit, even global action can't help now...we will have quit the supply systems, the complex networks etc and degrow down to basics".
Wow, thanks Goldie and Sarah for making some pieces of the puzzle fall together for me - I'm coming out the other side of 3 years of chronic insomnia that I can trace back to COVID lockdown-induced social unrest, then beginning to work in climate sector, and mainlining Nate Hagens' podcast for a couple of years. And now, hopefully on the other side, I notice a quiet kind of forward momentum in me that I also feel in this interview with Indy, reactions to the US election, the big Hikoi on parliament here in Aotearoa NZ, and so-on...
I’ve recently returned home (New Zealand) from a trip in America. I was in the States on voting day and spoke with a few people. What became apparent was that violence was definitely on the table for ‘both sides’. I sat on a domestic US flight next to a retired American woman, who described feeling so nervous about the potential violence - that she, at 67, went out and purchased a firearm. Spoke with another American woman on flight bound for NZ who described being ecstatic about the results and truly believed that the ‘savvy businessman’ now in power was going to fix their country. Her and her husband are currently in NZ, touring around. She asked about life here in NZ, and confessed her only understanding of things was being aware of the Ozone layer (or lack of). Little did she, or I know, that a day after they drove off in their camper a protest march of predominantly thousands of Māori (indigenous people of NZ) blocked roads, flooding public transport and walked to our nations Parliament. I left the US witnessing political unrest, and an underlying ‘hum’ of violence to arrive home to NZ to something truly significant. While the protest (Hīkoi) is peaceful, it has promoted a flood of strong emotions, viral videos, potential division and a general sense of unease. I always enjoy listening to your podcasts Sarah, and attempt to synthesis new learnings from the many wonderful experts you have. This episode is powerful and Indy’s words “given words to what I was feeling” ring true for me. I am a Teacher, currently out of the classroom - as waking up to the state of our world while working in our education system over the covid pandemic was too much for me, then. I’ve been building my own resilience and working on my well-being in order to clarify how I can be of value in the future. Thank you for your work. You add so much value and forever promote new learning for me and many more. Kia Ora. Mel.
gosh Mel, that's a powerful juxtaposition. The fact that the Ozone layer (the issue from at least 10 years ago) is their most recent update on NZ.
BTW, one of the most heartening/revealing things I note in this community - the number of teachers engaged in this topic. You are all at the coal face in a very real and important way.
I think this is what is most appropriate right now, building our resilience and our worth. So that we do not descend into violence within ourselves , within our families and within our communities.
Yup, Operation Calm the Farm
Yes, I agree. 🤞
Btw I am sooooo impressed with the NZ crew , their politicians , how they speak and act. First class 👌🏼 and that protest 🔥
ditto
Kia Kaha Mel. Wasn't the Hikoi incredible!
The level of crystal clear NO that the Māoris can exhibit , and their such warm YES 🙌🏼
This level of presence is needed so much , it cuts through the bullshit which permeates politics and media
Hi Mel. It's funny, but my daughter recently returned from a science conference in NZ (first trip there), and apart from the stunning landscapes, the thing she raved about the most was the fantastic way your country has navigated it's relationship between Indigenous people and the "colonisers" (what description is best here? Ancestors of invaders?). She definitely thought Australia could learn so much about Indigenous rights and respect from NZ - what a tragedy if this is lost, and not built upon further. In fact, it's probably a good example of Indy's proposed value quantification of things (where AI can do good, I suspect). Indigenous self-determination, etc., make NZ look good. That helps tourism. Visitors potentially think it's a safe, thoughtful, 'advanced' country when they see old and new cultures peacefully, almost cheerfully, co-existing. I imagine no one has calculated the economic value of this, but it must be substantial?
Thanks for a really interesting post, Mel.
Enjoy being back home
Yes, I hear you. Australia’s indigenous do not have a Treaty. NZs founding document has played an integral part in ‘balancing’ relations with my ancestors (Colonising British). Though, it’s extremely complex and flawed. I was glued to the events over the last week, and felt a familiar level of ‘shame’ about historical happenings. I live in the South Island in a predominantly ‘white’ community and over the years have been disappointed with interactions with students and families when I used Te Reo in the classroom. Yes, some of NZ is fair, kind and respectful - and the other end of the race relation spectrum exists. I’ve watched Māori unite as community during this hīkoi and it’s impressive. And, yes, the economic value of kiwi culture has been activated for many decades, sadly damaging some of our natural environment and often missing the deeper/spiritual connection of people and land. There’s a lot of ‘tokenism’ My feeling is that the new generations are savvy, intelligent and aware of the importance of taking back agency. I’m confident there will be more protests. More disruption…..like the rest of the world. Perhaps this is NZs version of the shift.
Guess the reason for posting after listening to this episode was to say “it’s happening everywhere“ -various forms of collapse / restructuring. I used to think NZ was a sleepy second cousin that would ride out the global storm in seclusion. Don’t think that now. I also believe that we colonials could do well to push pause, slow down and look for answers in indigenous practices.
Thanks for reading. Really appreciate this forum.
Really good points, Mel. My earlier post to you mentioned surface level impressions, but of course reality is far more nuanced. I apologise to everyone for my comment about the "value" of culture to NZ sounding flippant - definitely didn't mean to disregard the racism, violence, and othering that underpins Australia and NZ's recent histories and structures, thereby affecting these cultures.
I also just listened to Indy's ABC Big Ideas talk that Sarah linked for us, and like you, he suggests that running away to NZ won't mean escaping what's happening elsewhere. We are just too interconnected, and interdependent.
All beautifully put Mel
A US friend of mine commented after the election that in many ways the result was a relief - because he knew if Trump hadn't won the country would have exploded into anger and violence. That was very telling for me.
Yes, I felt same. A Harris win would also have delayed what I think is quite inevitable for America...a folding in on itself. Trump is surfacing it faster.
This takes how I felt after the Meg Wheatley episode to a whole other level. I think you were wise to issue your warning and it's also very generous of you to offer this space to people who need to process it.
I'm currently sitting in the "fuck it all" headspace and I know I need to allow myself to stay here for a few days until I figure out what's on the other side for me.
I walked up the street to buy my groceries and it's a beautiful sunny day and there's people everywhere laughing and sitting at outdoor cafes enjoying themselves and I felt like Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 watching the children in the playground.
I think I will just continue on with what I've been doing anyway as I am making some major life changes.
I need to build offline community and spend time in nature.
Indy's thoughts are very interesting and ring true for me and he's an amazingly intelligent person, but I struggle sometimes with lots of jargon and "heady" conversation. Even with you, Sarah, interjecting and breaking it down I still struggled. I will go back and listen to it and see if I can get more of an understanding of what's being discussed with a second listen.
I love Nate Hagen's podcasts and can only just grasp the concepts he discusses. But I understand that he is talking to a particular audience. I feel that the message (as well as our lives) needs to be simplified. You do a great job Sarah, with simplifying the message. I'm not sure why I struggled so much to understand a lot of what was being said, other than the scary timeline prediction.
I have felt in the past when "experts" or even intelligent commentators make it all a bit "heady" and wordy it leaves people such as myself behind. The message needs to be able to reach more people, but then maybe most people don't want to know.
The Sarah Connor feeling - I get that. So surreal.
Don't give yourself a hard time about the jargon etc. I struggle too and may head is in it 24/7 and I research my guests' ideas before we speak.
I'm with you re the heady-ness of this space. I touch on it in the Metacrisis chapter...
I have a lot of catch up reading to do....I tapped out for a bit.
Me too! I have had "Catch up SW" on my to do list for about 8 weeks. Sometimes, my brain needs to take a break and integrate all the new information it's received. I recently realised this is what was happening for me during these periods of overwhelm and I am starting to find ways to be kind & gentle to myself and my brain during this process instead of feeling annoyed at myself and worrying about not keeping up with the frantic onslaught of information constantly coming through.
I get the need to let your brain catch up. I have weeks to catch up on too!
Great that you've found what works for you in terms of self-care, so important :-)
I’m with you Karola..twisted my brain into a pretzel trying to follow Nate interviewing a fellow brainiac this week:) I’ve decided to leave certain knotty topics to them..I’m just emerging from my Fuck it all response to the US election, I’ve unsubscribed from most social media and news outlets, am focusing on slowing down, reading, nature and deepening ties within my local community. I do take heart in the comment section here, it all makes a difference. Take care
Bravo Jane...I'm going to come off social media when I can. For the moment I'm kind of contractually locked in with some of my projects. Def phasing out.
Thanks Jane. I find solace in this wonderful community and I seem to be doing very similar things to you.
Yes this, I’m on my second listen. I feel like I need a lecture type slide to go with it for me to fully comprehend what’s being said. I think the thing that stood out to me was the “othering” concepts. I see it EVERYWHERE and I’m guilty of it myself. I sat in a sauna last night with a bunch of men who were talking of trump and climate hoaxes and sky news sitting next to my water bottle covered in free Palestine stickers. I said “it’s so hard to have conversations about these things anymore” and they all nodded and agreed (perhaps not for the same reasons I think it is hard) but yes we must try and put a pin in the “othering” we are all in this shitshow together.
Yep, a pin in the "othering". And role model the better way (with our Free Palestine stickers!)
I know what you mean about the lecture slide! I'm a very visual learner. I am trying hard to stop the othering in my own life. I didn't have the words for it until now!
I agree about the importance of how the message is carried: it's why I loved Sarah's earlier books and why the current serialisation is literally changing my life. I listened hard to this podcast without understanding all of it, not just because of the jargon but because so much of what we are all talking about feels almost beyond language, tenuous, felt rather than expressed. But I do think for the message to reach people, indeed for all of us here to be able to be messengers, we need a different language. I already plan to buy and gift copies of Sarah's book to some of my friends and family but it won't be enough. We're going to need so many more conversations and we need more people like Sarah who can express it in ways that feel real (and, dare I say, actionable!)
Jane, thank you x
Ok a second listen with lots of rewinding and I have a much clearer understanding of the subject, the comments have helped too. Listening back I don't feel that there's too much jargon or wordiness, I think Indy is very clear and articulate. For me to absorb it all just took a couple of listens, I'm normally a visual learner. Thanks Sarah for this very informative and interesting episode.
I'm with you Karola, I struggled too. May need a second listen - I did half at 6am driving to work and half on the way home admittedly with a very fried brain!
Came hoping for some translation and thoughts in the comments here from much better brains than mine!
I love Nate Hagens too but have to pick and choose which topics/guests I commit to listening to. Have to bypass some that are beyond me! Often find his Frankly episodes, where he breaks thoughts or concepts down on his own better for me to take in.
I hear you Ali! I recommend a second listen, it really helped. I had to take notes though.
I only recently discovered Nate records his podcasts on youtube....watching with subtitles on really helps me!
Yeah I’m with you. He’s clearly brilliant and doing some intensely important work, but he needs to learn to communicate it better.
I think Indy is very articulate and very good at communicating his ideas. A lot of what he talks about is emergent and that can take a bit of work for my brain to unpack. I am doing a bit of a deep dive into his work and it's so interesting. And yes he's brilliant! I feel like Sarah is a doing great work bringing all these great minds to our attention. Indy is someone whose work I may not have come across if it wasn't for Sarah.
Thank you both for your honesty and frankness. It didn’t scare me—well, the 5–10 years part did a little! But this conversation has lit a fire in me! No more fear about rocking boats with my words or work. This conversation was a call to the front line. And you’re right, Sarah. I believe part of that front line is helping people connect with the inner resources available to all of us—if we get our minds out of the way.
I know in my own life, if I hadn’t embarked on what Joseph Campbell calls the “inner journey”—had I not done the messy, hard, but ultimately liberating work of looking at my own sh*t—I know I’d be voiceless. But having walked that path, I see clearly now: the only way through is through. Through our individual and collective darkness, we can rediscover an inner wellspring of compassion, strength, resilience—and yes, love. Love for this beautiful blue dot floating in space. Love for each other.
And we no longer have the luxury (not that we ever did) of finding our own inner resolve/calm and then retreating to some island or cave to live in peace. Inner work and justice work, healing and service, the personal and the political—they must go hand in hand. But I believe the inner work must come first.
Because when we lead from the heart, we can vote for X without demonising those who vote for Y. We can call out injustice without dehumanising the other. We can stand for peace without berating those who don’t stand with us.
I’d love to hear thoughts on this idea—that individual healing can be a pathway to collective healing. Because if we lose our heart and humanity entirely in the sh*t show, what else is left? Returning to the heart is how I’m equipping myself—and my kids—for what lies ahead, and for what is already here.
I feel the calling, too.
And I love your framing - the inner and outer work must operate in tandem. It's not enough to go into a faux spiritual cocoon. Monks must come down from mountains!
Me, I am careful not to think I must do the inner healing BEFORE doing the outer work. One facilitates and assists the other. We do both at once...in a complex, whole dynamic. My activism has taken me to a personal peace and maturity I would not have got to without the challenge.
I really resonate with this Sarah. I call my work "love work" because it was born from a big life disruption, some introspection, some experiments at different things, back to spiritual / personal dev work, then finding my place and running with it. Even now, going from despair to action is a daily challenge and learning to live with that roller coaster is part of the ride of this thing called 'life'.
That's a great point, Sarah. Sometimes, I get stuck on the need to do the inner healing first. But we simply don't have time for that! 'One facilitates and assists the other'. I love this. Thanks for that a-ha moment!
Yes! ‘I build the road and the road builds me.’
I feel so much of what you felt, Lara! In fact, minus the 5-10 years, I let
out a huge “I’m not crazy afterall” exhale. You might enjoy this book, which speaks to the inner / outer journey that I too believe will ultimately heal each of us and all of us. https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/nature-works-activating-regenerative-leadership-consciousness_giles-hutchins/52936535/item/64356720/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_new_condition_books_high&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=593819619485&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADwY45hhmQN1UCzxANi1JzgMZ456k&gclid=CjwKCAiArva5BhBiEiwA-oTnXbOWGdrwy0fKzw-VsLNBoGOPlKdD3XRuMrrZ7QHSCk8qTT6FukJ8bRoCkCoQAvD_BwE#idiq=64356720&edition=71383144
Thanks so much, Janna!
Hi Sarah and Indy. Thank you for an utterly profound talk. I am so grateful to you both - for the topics discussed, for the honesty, and for the dignity with which you treat your audience. Despite the warning that the material would be confronting, and of course, it was, I unexpectedly finished the podcast with an overwhelming sense of gratitude. I hope others found Indy's innovative modelling and the work being done by Dark Matter Labs as important as I did.
I am lucky enough to have a family member who innately, unflinchingly views the world through a non-speciesist lens. They have taught me over the years to discard so many assumptions and biases, and to reframe my thinking. I am slowly learning. Hearing Indy describe the necessity of agency for all of the natural world is therefore inspiring, and if such things initially require a costing, or an economic context in order to be accepted by some societies, so be it. I suspect there would be very few redundant species, or landforms, or weather systems, etc. Similarly, assessing our lives and our consumption via the term "bio-nutrition" also makes perfect sense, especially when considering terra preta (another concept that is new to me, but fascinating). While such ideas do not diminish the tragedy of violence being inflicted upon human and non-human animals, environments, and cultures, they can prompt us to make more compassionate, considerate choices, which then potentially influence others to make more compassionate, considerate choices. As per Sarah's advice.
In the meantime, as always, the gutless thugs who hold the weapons also hold us by the throats. So I understand why Indy's scenarios all come up as terminal. Nevertheless, I hope some of us can muster the energy, and the creativity, and the intelligence, to promote Indy's suggested slingshot alternatives, for example. Aim for what's right, not what's inevitable.
Brilliant talk, Sarah. Thank you, as always
P.S. I actually searched "Indy Johar tshirt" after the podcast. Thank you for all the work you do, Indy!
Harry, your use of the word "dignity" really touches me.
Lovely summary Harry, I also ended the podcast in a better mental place than I started.
thanks Michelle
im looking to be brave and dive in; this is encouraging
thanks too Harry, a space of gratitude also encouraging and a balm, notwithstanding the obvious
Thank you for sharing this episode. I woke up despondent today about the global mess, so this episode was very timely. I sat with a colleague at work and we talked through this after we listened, as it directly relates in so many ways to the work we do (especially the food systems priority). It also validates so much of the thinking and talking we have done in work at community level in the South Pacific concerning what resilience actually is (and how we talk to our donors about this). I had a little cry at the end (because of the weight of the violence) and then took a deep breath and spent some time in reanimation of the trees and plants around me, glad for the reminder that everything we touch is “the work.”
What kind of work do you do Michelle? I have two brothers who worked in the South Pacific in climate projects (one of them is currently in Vanuatu)
Hi, I work in “knowledge and learning” (such a mouthful of a title) for an NGO called Live & Learn Environmental Education that is a network of locally registered non-profit organisations across the Pacific. We are very localised, working in a community-led way as much as possible for strengthened resilience to impact of climate change through ecosystem restoration or “nature-based solutions.” We also do water security work, and carbon/forest protection. For the past three years most of my time has been on a specific programme where we work with communities in 6 countries (including Vanuatu!) on integration of different ways of being/knowing in climate resilience approaches (in grant proposal speak we integrate “western” science and Indigenous knowledge in nature positive approaches to resilience). It’s messy, slow, everyone involved has different interpretations based on their different mindsets and history, etc (impact of colonisation and missionaries and modern economic pressures), but we are seeing slow transformation of the kinds discussed in the podcast. Reconnection with complete dependence on natural systems, acknowledgement and importance of tradition, local, Indigenous knowledge, etc. But every year the natural systems experience more stress, the natural cycles are changed, the storms are worse. https://livelearn.org/climate-resilient-islands/
Wow - what a brain Indy has! I do, however, have trouble with the mindset that thinks that the 'human machine arc' narrative is a good thing??? Maybe I misunderstood that line of argument.
Having said that, the thinking around food systems change is exactly where I'm at - funnily enough values-based supply chains is my thing!! The problem is, there's no money being invested in it right now. 20 years of activism in this space has yielded very few supporters. So, hearing him suggest that a lot of money is going to be invested in resilience is music to my ears!
I also love the examples of taking a grounded, local approach with local governments - very in line with the thinking of David Fleming. Thank you Sarah for pushing Indy to reveal what we can be doing and 'being' and 'becoming' individually as we face these multiple horizons.
The "go local" message is a revelation for me, too. Heard it for years but always felt it was too small-scale.
And thanks for noticing how I push/guide guests! ha!
I hear you. I can't tell you how many times people have looked at me after explaining what I do and saying, "that's cute, but....." Obviously I haven't communicated the message clearly enough, but also sometimes ears aren't ready to hear things too...
I too had to listen to the podcast twice to get a handle on the breadth of the matter. I am also reading "Sandtalk" by Tyson Yunkaporta. This book has broken the ground for me regarding a shift in the type of thinking that a human is capable of. I can see parallels between indigenous thoughts/values and the new capital Indy talks of. I feel surprisingly hopeful for greater community connections and increased consciousness. I am resting in this.
That's a great companion read to all this. Ditto his next book. I interviewed Tyson on Wild some time back on Indigenous complexity thinking. x
I've also been working in the values based space for over a decade now, specifically in values based communications. It's still an uphill battle, everyone sees the world through a marketing lens and looks for quick wins (even the well meaning organisations and programs), with the language continually used entrenching extractivism further.
Would love to learn more about values-based supply chains, especially around food systems!
I agree with the lack of progress in value based value chains. In my work I find it bonkers that this isn’t a given or foundational thinking when doing value chain analysis. It’s so nature blind and arrogant to ignore (externalise) this!
Yes!!!! Would love to know more about your work Michelle. To me, it's just common sense.
And you found me on LinkedIn! Where I don’t say much, but a least we are connected now for future opportunities!
Don't worry, I just read your previous reply to Sarah - wonderful work you're doing!
I feel that values based systems will be incorporated in almost all larger systems. As the violence increases (passive aggressive and outwardly aggressive). Businesses, farms, communities, organisations which hold values and accountability as precious as a bottom line. Will be the only ones worth investing in or left standing.
Wow, what an incredible episode! I’ll need to listen again, especially to the second half where Indy explains the pathways to fully understand it, but I thoroughly enjoyed learning those ideas around nature having agency (I fist pumped when you two were talking about this!), the concept of bionutritive vs biodegradable (mind blowing!), and how humans are integral to rebuilding nature, like the way we cultivated the Amazon (Jem Bendell talks about this in his book too, and how as a keystone species we have this ability).
I feel somewhat prepared for whatever lies ahead and have intuitively felt this decade-long timeline. Being part of this community and listening to the Wild podcast has been transformative, helping me shift focus toward more meaningful activities (nature, connection, play) and detaching from all the messy, unproductive noise and consumption cycle (esp of media). It’s not easy, though - there’s a constant pull from the capitalist driven, mafia-like vortex (to borrow from The Godfather: “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!”).
So I'm at peace with whether I’m a victim or a survivor of what's to come. C’est la vie. Taking a more stoic approach helps me, as does thinking in we vs me terms (if we or nature survives, great - I'm not all that important in the grand scheme of things), and in the meantime, focusing on showing up in ways that reflect my values and humanity - embodying that warrior of the human spirit as Meg Wheatley so beautifully puts it.
I feel very similarly to you, Melissa... I especially feel exactly what you say in your last paragraph. But I waiver from this feeling of stoic peace at times, when I think of my children (aged 14 and 15). If I can't save them from what's to come (which obviously I can't) then I wish i could transfer my feelings of peace and stoicism to them, so that they too can rise above the situation when the time comes. But I've not yet worked out how to do this...
A great interview in so many ways, my main take away was Indy talking about the priority of changing the value of a human, in our thinking and in our economies.
The historical and current perspective is that humans are part of the extractive economy. They’re to exploit and only have value as worker or consumer.
This is a tangent, but what is happening in Gaza is the visible systemic violence that Indy talks about. It is demonstrating that this ethnic group has no value , rights or even access to food. This de humanises us all, as it is normalising genocide and violence against innocent civilians, especially against children…Gaza is setting a precedent , a new low in (evil) morality and the devaluing of life , that plays into the increase in violence Indy predicts.
That is why we must do all we can to stop it , for those whose life’s are being destroyed now and for those who will be next. Raising the value of humans means everyone , regardless of location, ethnicity, gender or religion….this is something we can do today ❤️🩹
Yes! And the points Indy and Sarah made about ‘othering’ and how we need to look to Indigenous wisdoms on land stewardship. All the years of oppression of Indigenous people, and ignoring their relationship to land has come back to bite us! We reap what we sow…
Thank you for this interview and the space to process it all. Honestly, I found this refreshingly honest and to the point. We do have a duty here. Although I always have in the back of my mind an interview with Tyson Yunkaporta from 2021, where he said something like "our people have lived through many apocalypses". And I'm filled with a sense of deep time and a reminder of what true resilience looks like.
It's a very good reminder. I'm writing something similar now.
Great interview with a fascinating gentleman who has some genuinely interesting insights. Overall, I didn't find it scary or confronting, just really interesting. However, and perhaps I'm not quite getting it, but his message did seem to me to be quite optimistic and even, dare I say it, somewhat unrealistic.
I can't see for a moment how the global capitalist systems are going to legislate for the sovereignty or autonomy of trees or eco-systems when it will not accord sentient beings such as non-human animals any such rights. Imagine for a moment any political party taking that into an election cycle.
Despite decades of legislative changes the rates of land clearing in Australia continue to grow - do we really think that the people and corporations engaged in land clearing are going to have a sudden change of heart? The same with ideas about re-negotiating notions of human worth, human potential and capacities - meanwhile in the US the human rights of 50% of the population has taken a five decades step backwards. If the rights of women are globally under threat, I can't see a sudden renaissance in human rights taking place any time soon.
I know Indy was suggesting that there are actions we could take in order to arrive at a different future before that future is foisted upon us, but I'd just point to the entire debacle of climate change and environmental destruction to suggest that's simply not going to happen. I remember seeing the cover story of 'Discover' science magazine in the 1980's - 'The Greenhouse Effect' (a term that has gone out of fashion now) warning us of the consequences of runaway climate change and global heating. Forty years later, the warnings weren't heeded, too little was done, too late and now the future we were warned about is being foisted upon us, whether we like it or not. It seems that change will not occur until change is forced upon us.
I suspect also, that even if attempts have been made to put in place the new systems of thought Indy was talking about they'll be stampeded in the panic and disruption as the broad mass of humanity realise the predicament they're in and rush for the lifeboats only to find there are none. At that point, I wonder how resilient the new social systems and ideas will be - the saying, 'everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face' springs to mind. We're already seeing a strong turn towards the authoritarian right when confronted with mounting social, economic and environmental pressures.
So, an interesting interview, but I feel his solutions depended upon a far too optimistic assessment of human nature and the likelihood that people will voluntarily change before that change is forced upon them. In that respect, I think your own term, the 'shitification' of things is a more apt descriptor of the trajectory we face, that things are just going to get shittier and shittier, that we're going to go through some truly shitty times and eventually arrive at a point where, for the people left, things are less shit but still pretty crap.
I'm not sure he was saying the whole world will pursue this path. One of the pathways will. These will all happen at the same time and the interconnected systems will combine. But I'll ask Indy to chime in here.
I agree. I found it quite a frustrating listen because it was so vague. My takeaway was “it will happen because it must happen,” but that’s not how the world (or anything) works. If the options are close-to-total annihilation or these four paths Indy spells out, my money is on annihlation because the late capitalist death cult rewards only short-term profit and will exploit/kill/irreconcilably harm anything and anyone that gets in its way.
I would love to be wrong (god, let me be wrong), but I just didn’t find anything compelling to argue against it here.
I've asked Indy to chime in on this thread asap to clarify ! xx
I agree with you Christopher except I thought he was kind of outlining what would have to happen for the slingshot and saying that it probably basically was not going to happen without extreme violence and termination of most of the human race even as some parts of humanity attempted to enact them. I got the impression that only on the very long term (“geological timescale”) the humans who survived the “terminal” scenario would adopt these new ways of being.
Thanks for that very succinct summary Emma!
I don’t actually know if I got it though, hopefully Sarah will write more on it 😅
Wow! Such a gripping interview. So on one hand, what a shock to hear this stuff. But really, isn’t it just saying out loud what we already know, deep down, viscerally?
What it seems is, we are on the precipice of the biggest fight of our lives to save ourselves and do what is “right”. Not in that shallow way that children talk about “right and just” (Harari puts it well in the book Sapiens that these things are something that humans have made up to keep order, a shared myth). I mean something much deeper (which get but struggle to explain).
And yet, I agree with you Christopher Lee….I feel that humans are just too greedy and power hungry to take the “risk” to move away from this stupid “zero sum game” capitalist life that we are trapped in.
I was hiking when I listened to this interview which in some ways really dialled things up for me. I was tuned in!
Right, now I need a cuppa tea and a lie down so I can process some of this!
I listened to that episode with my whole body. Thank you. I felt like how I have been feeling for the last couple of years was massively validated. My body knows that things are bad and are going to continue to get bad and sure that doesn’t sound hopeful but I am also no longer interested in hope, just love. Love requires action, hope can feel quite passive.
My own personal journey has been one of retraining as a trauma informed somatic therapist and embodiment facilitator. That whole episode spoke to so many of my experiences. The more embodied I become the more I feel into the interconnectedness of everything and the more my heart breaks and the more I want to do everything I can.
The topic around animism or agency to nature as it was framed in the podcast is something that has become bigger and bigger for me as I really feel into that connection. I talk to trees, I thank the sea when I swim, I try to attune myself to the rhythm of the stones. There is so much grief. And I really do feel like one thing I can offer is grief work. Because so many people when they awaken to this reality are going to be overwhelmed with grief. It’s the avoidance of that which is probably causing the most amount of apathy.
I saw Robin Wall Kimmerer speak earlier in the year. Someone asked her where do we find hope and she said only once we can grieve will we find hope.
I say sorry to trees.
Thanks for your reflection, Ami. I really resonate with your sentiments about animism and giving agency to nature. I live in East Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory, where Yolŋu people maintain an enduring and vibrant relationship with everything. In Yolŋu culture, everything is kin—there is no separation.
In my work, I work closely with Yolŋu leaders to deliver cross-cultural competency training, and a story often shared during these sessions comes to mind. It involves the late Rev. Dr. Gondarra, a respected Yolŋu leader who used to deliver the same training across the NT. During one session on kinship, a participant—a self-described "salt of the earth" Aussie hippie—interjected, saying he felt a philosophical connection with Yolŋu people because he too believed in the idea of nature as "Mother Earth."
Rev. Dr. Gondarra responded by gently but firmly correcting him, explaining that he had missed the point. For Yolŋu people, there isn’t a single, overarching concept of Mother Earth. Instead, every part of the landscape is understood through a complex web of kinship relationships. For example, the beach to the left might be his mother’s country, the bush leading toward the river systems his uncle’s country, and the island out at sea his father’s country.
This story has stayed with me as a profound reminder of the depth and complexity of cultural and social relationships with the world. While the concept of Mother Earth can foster compassion and connection with the non-human world, I think there is an opportunity to expand our understanding further. Embracing or at least pondering on a kinship framework like that of Yolŋu people invites us into a richer, more intricate relationship with the landscape—one that deepens our sense of belonging and responsibility within an interconnected web of life.
I find it enthralling to witness myself go through similar journey to the hippie kid. I'm only getting the full weight of what Indigenous People's talk about from going down deep into pain. No doubt that's how they got here, too.
I just i'v'd Vanessa Andreotti and she talks about this...it runs next week
Yes this. Same journey. We really need spaces for grief. I attended a grief ceremony last night held by Palestinian & Israeli artists and musicians (ripples collective) and there was about 200 of us grieving with them through the sharing of their stories, music and movement. This is what we need, spaces to dive into our pain and the collective pain so it can transform us.
Thank you for sharing this, Ami, language is indeed important. We use ‘Mother Country’ as an umbrella term, as the holder term for all those kinship interrelationships in a given country. The term or collective noun was given to us by Aboriginal elder friends.
We avoid the word ‘landscape’ as for us it takes things back into the mind of surveyor, of surveillance, of standing above the land looking down or out. The tradition of ‘landscape painting’ where the word landscape derives, comes from the aristocratic belief in ownership of land. It is, for us, a disconnecting word.
Thank you. That makes complete sense with the word landscape, it does speak of ownership and language matters so deeply.
Mmmm complex web of kinship. Yes it’s exactly that. When people reference Mother Nature it still feels like a duality, like it’s something separate from us and it’s not. We are it and we are a part of this incredible system.
You only need to look at our bodies to understand this. Like the breath cycle is an act of reciprocity with plants, lights and minerals.
Thank you so much for sharing that story.
Yes, God is above, then us, then Earth below. Always a hierarchy
... "the breath cycle is an act of reciprocity with plants, lights and minerals."
this is so good
thank you
I think you are on the right track Sarah re your question about your “place” in all of this.
How to make a living out of this will arise.
As I speak many come to mind.
Do you know those old Aerobic Oz Style Shows, live to air (or maybe pre recorded), everyone turns in on the Tele and does their morning exercise.
Anyway, the modern equivalent comes to mind.
This community is one place, daily live vipassana , where you can sit in silence and observe yourself , while observing everyone else out there. Collective sitting in what the fuck just is.
I have a business idea for online group and solo therapy.
Your collapse book, and your fuck I need a walk book.
Tech can help spread the effects and also minimise the impacts.
Some mornings I wake up and meditate and exercise and then sit on subs and send out my random musings. It helps.
I ask though Sarah, can you double check your internal biases, is there a tendency towards doom (or maybe I see possibly a delusional optimism like mine 🥸). I have both, so they kind of balance it all out.
Or rather , I think you are the canary in the coal mine. Your experiences and physiology mean you had to give up earlier than everyone else. You broke first. And from there had to look at the reality of life.
And your ability with words and communication are allowing you to share your discoveries with a large audience.
Resilience is key right now too.
I found that my own resilience was lacking , and could not keep up with my own self violence, nor the violence of my daughter. In response to the uncertainty of relational collapse, adolescence and societal collapse.
Glad that you’re taking a break from some projects , and seem to be building the battery of the future.
Personally , and I know that you are exploring relational resilience and health. Which translates to all relationships (ecological, financial, global).
Honesty is key, and the willingness to be selfish and ask to be alone , or also to be selfish and ask for togetherness. In order to manage the emotional and physical load. And also to allow the gaps in time and space for new ways to emerge.
These are the arcs , which accelerate and build things greater and faster than the sum of the parts or individuals involved.
As they hold more power than molochian arcs that we have been exploring previously.
Make sense 🧐😝?
Your brain goes on some wild, fun tangents, Steve! Collapse Oz Style...!!!
I'm going to run your "fuck I need a walk book" line past my publisher as a potential title!!!
Thanks for challenging me on your question.I challenge myself on it often. I don't tend to preference doom. I'm mostly a very optimistic person. I don't give up. I fight because I believe goodness is the vibe of the universe. However I am a very pragmatic person and I prefer to veer on the side of what is likely and to be ready for it. I think it's worth exploring fully the expert- established worst-case and really-very-probable (but not locked in yet) scenarios...with eyes wide open...so that we KNOW what could happen and can bear it in mind, try our best to avoid it etc. This is what the human negativity bias exists for - to wake us up before the pot hits boiling point.
Then I pull back and try to operate in what, either way, WILL transpire. In our current case, it is nigh guaranteed things will be really really shit and hard and despairing going forward. I think we can say this with 99.9% certainty. How hard, we don't know (and this is also what I focus on ...dealing with this not knowing). And, so, we get ready for this decline.
I then bundle up my natural optimism and fight and put it to emotionally and spiritually comprehending the role of despair, of hard times, of cycles of collapse and creation.
Or maybe
Fuck This ! I am out of here
30 great walks when you need to calm the farm
Not that I see any biases as such ☺️ it’s just that this is big and needs all bases covered 😝
I definitely have biases...my challenge is to work to use them in good ways, not be blinded by them!
Yep 🥸🤣🤪
Strange places
Was discussing with my partner about the tendency to scroll , and that it is just the same as having the radio on in the background , or the TV back in the day
We all want to know that “someone” is there
A remedy against the abyss of existential crisis
And made me think about those old shows, and the morning shows, connection
Have often thought about running a live stream on my instagram in the mornings
Just me meditating for 15 and maybe a poem if one comes
Soothing for me, and so many lonely souls out there
and yes
100 %
Like the scouts say
Prepare for the worst , expect the best
It is not easy to see things clearly and want to share them
Especially with so much noise and uncertainty in the day to day already
I have not sensed any doom porn from you, just questions. And people are searching for those questioning things. That’s why Trump got in via his ruse , and the narcissistic conspirators are running wild.
Keep going , the noise will fade away or will get so noisy people will be looking for the calm farm
Or want to go for a fucking walk 😅
Interesting observstion Steve... that 'scrolling' is like a modern tech version of having the radio or tv on in the background - we all want to know someone is there.
https://open.spotify.com/track/343ySUa7BIhKTLOFgVzzYc?si=1tg7pQcgQ0SM5R1FgzlaGw&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A3yxhUZL9Rnj4elVVgwdwpq
A track for your day or night everyone
We need a smile and a boogie 🙌🏼
Hi Sarah,
I'm new to the discussion… I've been a fan of your work for a while, read your books and have been listening along for over a year. I find great solace in your work. I apologise in advance for the long/ multiple questions, I suppose I'm at a bubbling point with all these ideas and I agree that it is a lonely place.
Is what Indy is saying, that he doesn't foresee through his own analysis, that there is a way society collapses and that doesn't unfurl into our own termination? Whereas in past conversations you've had, there does seem to be an indication of some sort of rebuilding from collapse... Jem Bendell, as a piece of advice, talked of relying less on money for example, to sustain ourselves (if he runs a charitable farm in Indonesia perhaps he sees this as some way of relying more on the land for sustenance?). Similar to the ideas of the Great Simplification, that there isn't necessarily hope of stopping societal collapse, but perhaps there is hope of rebuilding something thereafter, that could actually be far more in line with what's good for us and the planet? Is Indy essentially saying society cannot collapse because this will destroy us? I understand he's talking about some ideas of how to stop this. I can't quite get my head around his ideas, I will keep trying and read some more of his work… But the complexity of all of this is what worries me, do we not need to galvanise a mass of people to turn collapse around? Doesn't this task require a great mass of people to understand the problem and thus task ahead? If I understand correctly, he's saying those with an investment in material goods, like soil, are starting to wake up to the fragility of the current systems.That those in insurance and banking have a vested interest in not letting collapse happen? Is this where we pin our hope, that those with the power to do something about it actually will? I may have misunderstood.
I totally agree with the point on the importance of indigenous knowledge moving forward. I believe a very key part of why we have ended up in this clusterfuck, as I know you refer to it, is because we have strayed from our evolutionary origins; of being in tune and a part of nature. This being healthier for us and the planet and needing to work communally to sustain ourselves, therefore not being so individualised. But how do we get to these solutions posed?
I'm not sure I can see a way that we can implement the changes necessary to stop what will unfurl if we continue down the path we are on. I feel deeply that current forms of power systems would need to be outstripped, overrun. They're not going to do what's needed, bankers, capitalists, they've fuelled all of this. I do not think they will do what's ultimately best for the collective. So I ask, how do we take power away from those so unwilling to do what is so necessary so that we can? I personally write a lot about this, but I can't see how it's possible. I've been wrangling with this for a decade as an activist and it comes down to this - I can't see that there is a vessel at the moment capable of taking down national and international capitalist power structures in order to change course. I don't think sound science presented calmly to those in power will ever work to bring about the change needed - the slingshot away from collapse. The vessels of organisation that ordinary people had historically to enact change against the powerful are fairly dismembered. I'm in the UK and the unions have actively squashed what potential there has been of grassroots working class organisation in the last 10 years… as has the labour party.
I mean, not to jump too far ahead here but imagine if there was such a vessel that started to organise against the UK government. First of all, the UK press is viciously right wing and this organisation for the people and planet would be discredited (see what happened to Jeremy Corbyn and also Extinction Rebellion being considered a terrorist organisation in the Prevent Agenda). Then, if that didn't work to dissuade the mass of people from supporting it, we would be talking about violence. How could a genuinely radical new party or union or any organisation willing to fight for what is needed, not incite violence from the ruling classes? Those running the world have too much power, too much technology. It almost feels like things need to collapse in on themselves for us to have a chance at running the world's resources in a way that's fair for people and the planet. We can't destabilise them, I think it will take fragmentation of land, people, economic systems going bust and governments not being able to govern their people anymore...I think it will take that for communities to form that are capable of running resources in a non extractive and democratic way.... because our survival post collapse will depend on it.
People say we are too selfish to have such communities but I agree with Karl Marx in that he observed that human nature is dictated by the economics of society. Capitalism forces competition and individualism for people to meet their needs and so greed and selfishness flourish. When you must meet your needs through communal labour in order to survive (of course we do that now but abstractly), the values that foster a community environment flourish. How do we get there without dying trying?
I personally moved away from devoting all my time and working life to activism 3 years ago now. I moved from the city and retrained in bushcraft and outdoor guiding. I now run a not for profit teaching low income women these skills. I did this in a large part for myself, I am better out in nature, I believe we all are. But also, there was and is a growing part of me that did it because I wanted to prepare myself. I felt that I needed to know how to try to live off and with the land for survival. I'm spending next year learning how to sustainably farm in the Hebrides. Not because I want to run away, but because I worry there will be a time very soon that money will mean nothing and knowing how to live off the earth will be necessary once again. Is this doomsday preppy, or a worthwhile endeavour…. I feel in my gut I know the answer but I literally cannot have the conversation without someone asking me where my tin foil hat is.
Thanks in advance for your time to read this,
Best wishes.
P.s. I will be starting to read your book, so I'm sorry if you answer all this there, I needed some time but I have arrived mentally now.
Thank you for such a beautiful, well thought out response. You raise questions that have been swirling around in my head since the interview but couldn't quite articulate.
Well said Amy. I love your life pivot too - we are all better in nature, I agree.
I feel ya Amy xx
Oh dear, as much as I went to listen to this I’m not sure I can hold space for the realities mentioned…..I know in my heart that timeline feels true, but what that truth looks like I do not know, it still feels too scary to look at
I really get it. I really encourage you do what you're doing...allowing your nervous system to determine when you're ready. Overwhelm helps no one.
I’d love to ask, in general, how everyone copes with the predicted reality that we may only have 5,10 or 15 years left before…..? I’ve read the chapter are we all going to die, and this interview kind of makes me feel that’s the case? I know none of us know what our personal time lines will be, we never have, life’s unpredictable. This is a massive call and timely reminder to live in the present, but I’m finding it hard to wrap my head around these predictions. I guess I’m stuck in the overwhelm space, not sure how to move to the acceptance space. Any suggestions would be welcomed 🥹
Something that helps me is to remember that the only time that is real is the present. Everything is predictions and modelling, we don’t know for certain (even if likely). BUT I can live today (as much as our stupid systems let me) with the values that should be our foundations. These are the “dark matter” things we don’t question or value that are behind many choices or systems. So the things Indy mentioned as actions are things you can do now. Soil, food, community, are a great place to start. Sometimes the overwhelm is from a twisted obligation that you as an individual must know, think, care, DO EVERYTHING. But we don’t. We just have to do our bit and trust that others are doing their bit - like Indy said, the work is everywhere. Talking with like minded people helps too.
Thank you Michelle - this is a helpful salve and framing, I can definitely feel the liberation this type of thinking creates, fighting back against the systems that don’t serve us to live a meaningful life.
And a good reminder we can’t individually carry the weight of this all, I just need to find some local Londoners who are engaging in this space :)
It is a liberation in thinking, isn't it. It drives us right down into what our souls know matters.
I'll do another UK meet-up down the track... x
Yes indeed! The power of now and do everything.
Because none of us really know what the future holds, I'm trying to spend my time on the things that really matter to me: spending time with my adult kids and really being present in the moment with them, being in nature, simplifying my life as much as possible, consuming less, figuring out ways I can be of service, making sure I conduct myself with dignity and integrity (to the best of my ability).
If you don’t mind me asking, do you discuss this topic with your adult children? I’ve got a 26 year old son and I’ve never mentioned collapse to him and I swing between guilt and anxiety as a result..
Yes I do. Your son may already have an underlying feeling of what's coming. None of my kids were completely surprised. I have been fortunate to have always had great communication with my kids and we talk about many subjects, so I just very gradually and very subtly introduced my thoughts in a conversational manner. I kind of drip fed my thoughts over a six month period. I haven't discussed how dire I think it will get but they know enough that we can have ongoing conversations.
Thanks Karola and Tom. “ Drip feed” yes and that’s what I’m going to have ramp up this conversation with my adult children
I think it's really hard to know how to handle the idea of collapse with our loved ones. I understand the guilt and anxiety as a parent! It feels like it's never ending at times.
Thanks for the thoughtful replies, very much appreciated. Take care
I literally just read this quote in another book, and I feel it might help. Courtesy the kind eyed president from a couple of terms ago x
"The best way not to feel hopeless is to get up and do something.."
Xx
I find it hard to combine the complete overwhelm of trying to mother a little kid, write a third book, keep doing meaningful environment centred journalism, keep running my tree planting group, and keep a home, with the idea of trying to simplify life and smell the roses while we can. I’m getting the message “honour your work” and be a community leader, but all those things seem part of that, but are also not conducive to calming anyone’s farm. I get that it’s a personal thing, but … I keep wondering if in 10 years I’ll regret not simply stopping it all and enjoying life with my little one while the world was still a relatively sweet and easy place in our pocket of it. Bah, I know we must just keep going, but it’s somewhat counter to the sense of relief I was getting with earlier chapters. Now after this podcast I feel like the pressure has returned tenfold.
Isn't your work calming the farm? A home, planting trees...they demonstrate the right values for the calm environment we need.
Me, I'm using collapse as the invite to dial down everything. If we "have this wrong" and Trump saves us, there will be no harm done.
I wish my work felt like a calm farm 😂
Feels more like a batshit belfry
I think it is definitely important to enjoy your relatively sweet and easy pocket of earth, while it still is. To me that is honouring it.
Simplifying doesn't need to mean depriving and shouldn't mean ignoring. It can be easy to get swept up in the idea of 'one day I'll be forced to go without xyz, so I may as well start now' or being so busy looking out for tomorrow and working to safeguard it, that we miss today.
If we are blessed to have a peaceful pocket of the universe to spend our days in, we should enjoy it wholeheartedly. The tricky bit is balance, isn't it.. Can we do both? Work and rest, prepare and be present, fight and love.
Perhaps there needs to be an acknowledgement of the love and presence and rest not just being of value, but it IS the work too.
Thank you Samantha 😘😘😘
When I read “5-10 years” my first thought was, 5 years of intentional living is better than 50 years of aimless, meandering and pointless living.
Maybe cutting it short might improve the quality?
I don’t know, something to ponder.
I thought the same. But I'm 50 and I honestly don't know what to imagine for someone who's 20.
I feel pretty devastated by the prospect of maybe not living long enough to hit menopause; I'd only heard awful things about it until recently. Now more and more women have come out describing it as "a second childhood" or some kind of a transition into full not-giving-a-fuck-about-anything-that-isn't-deeply-important-or-caring-what-people-think witchery/wisdom attainment. Sounds like a hoot...and now I wonder if I will ever get to experience that *tears forming as I'm writing this.*
I'm feeling the same. I think I will wait a little while and read some comments first. I've read your warnings Sarah (thank you), so perhaps the hard part is already done, I'm not sure. Need to let that sit for a little while first.
Just jumping back on to point out that Macquarie Dictionary just named its word of the year as enshittification.
No way!!!
You’re a prophet
Same
Also, is there a transcript available? Or should I make my own. Just trying to get my head around this.
On Apple podcasts scroll down to bottom - there's always a transcript there and you can do a word search, too
Thank you
I’m finding it hard to hear the word at 1.11.48 where Indy says educators can try to release a thesis on how to “unlock XXX human value …” can anyone help?
Wow it’s been honour and privilege to hear all your thoughts, reflections and suggestions.. Thank you and thank @Sarah Wilson..
I'm most struck by the reflections on this comment thread and even those shared by you, Sarah.
Firstly, I've come across Indy's work before and am usually given a forewarning, similar to the one you so carefully laid out. His thought leadership is generally known to be "big picture" and jargon heavy. All good, right? What was so interesting to observe was the speed at which he linearly jammed his way through the various scenarios and how you coaxed him back into this dance of humanising and translation. You were the yin to his yang, when in many circles I'm sure Indy is usually the expert in bringing people to a systems level awareness -- as are you. In any case, I bring this up because I'm at the beginning of playing my first role as the yang in a circle of yins, after a long career of working in exactly the opposite role.
I found his reflections back to Iain McGilchrist's interview were most compelling. In terms of capability building, it's this ability to go back and forth that seems to be getting harder and harder. For many people I know, their wake up call was born out of an episode of some sort (schizophrenia, psychadelics, insomnia, near-death, etc. etc.) And I can't help but think that the rise of ADHD/neurodivergence is a crisis of our modern society not allowing space for us to go as deep and wide as we need. I do my best work in the middle of the night between toddler wakings. How do we hold these spaces for people early in their journeys AND the thought leaders? I'd say your podcast was the first mainstream accessible interview I've heard with Indy and it's those thought partnerships that we need right now.
As for the 4 pathways, this was new for me and gives me a sense of relief that OF COURSE the US will only continue doubling down on the nuclear path. I also deeply believe in local experimentation as a path to glocal dissemination (Side note: I was surprised to read in the comments that you hadn't already concluded the same? The Berkana Institute was the first organisation I remember seeing with global thought leaders jumping ship to go local. I wonder if your "local is too small" mindset comes from being a global nomad. No need to dive into this, but I am deeply curious about place especially in the context of future mass migration). I digress.
When it comes to funding, on the ground there seems to be competitive factions, both ideologically and in terms of people scrambling for the same pots. The funders who were enabling agroecology (not viable within our capitalist frameworks) are now stepping down...to live a simpler life? In the UK, the builders of the agroecology movements are trying to figure out what to do. Meanwhile, there's a shift towards decolonisation, racial justice, and repatriation work. SO SO important. And as we're trying to shift towards more democratic decision making, it seems inevitable that social justice and land justice will become the next duality. They are OF COURSE the same thing. But in a transition of slingshot speeds, we do not have the time to be yinning and yanging about.
I think the idea of the 4 pathways as inevitable, discrete, and divergent is interesting but difficult for me to wrap my brain around. Renaissance Philanthropy, maybe the biggest philanthropic manifestation of the Musk/nuclear mindset, has just landed in the UK and will soon be vying for the deep pockets of private wealthholders. Investing in moonshots isn't bad, but it is expensive and seems well taken care of by capitalism itself. How to make sure wealth redistribution actually centres the quietest voices, the agents of nature, and the voices of the global south? Won't that be another game of moloch muddling the 4 pathways back into one?
Uff. Insomnia left brain + right brain liminal space downloaded. Thank you so so much for the space to do this.
Goldie I love so much here...
Insominia as a pathway to waking up...yes...never heard anyone else feel the same.
The jumping ship to local...Yes, a very recent revelation...much like Meg et al (Berkana), it's an adjustment borne out of moving with the shift from "being able to possibly fix this global issue (with global solutions)" to "shit, even global action can't help now...we will have quit the supply systems, the complex networks etc and degrow down to basics".
Wow, thanks Goldie and Sarah for making some pieces of the puzzle fall together for me - I'm coming out the other side of 3 years of chronic insomnia that I can trace back to COVID lockdown-induced social unrest, then beginning to work in climate sector, and mainlining Nate Hagens' podcast for a couple of years. And now, hopefully on the other side, I notice a quiet kind of forward momentum in me that I also feel in this interview with Indy, reactions to the US election, the big Hikoi on parliament here in Aotearoa NZ, and so-on...
Side note: when I can't sleep, I listen to Nate's soothing voice lol