Dark Matter Labs' Indy Johar joins us to chat through the horrific "no viable pathways" thesis, how long we've got, plus how we personally cope with our predicament.
I’ve recently returned home (New Zealand) from a trip in America. I was in the States on voting day and spoke with a few people. What became apparent was that violence was definitely on the table for ‘both sides’. I sat on a domestic US flight next to a retired American woman, who described feeling so nervous about the potential violence - that she, at 67, went out and purchased a firearm. Spoke with another American woman on flight bound for NZ who described being ecstatic about the results and truly believed that the ‘savvy businessman’ now in power was going to fix their country. Her and her husband are currently in NZ, touring around. She asked about life here in NZ, and confessed her only understanding of things was being aware of the Ozone layer (or lack of). Little did she, or I know, that a day after they drove off in their camper a protest march of predominantly thousands of Māori (indigenous people of NZ) blocked roads, flooding public transport and walked to our nations Parliament. I left the US witnessing political unrest, and an underlying ‘hum’ of violence to arrive home to NZ to something truly significant. While the protest (Hīkoi) is peaceful, it has promoted a flood of strong emotions, viral videos, potential division and a general sense of unease. I always enjoy listening to your podcasts Sarah, and attempt to synthesis new learnings from the many wonderful experts you have. This episode is powerful and Indy’s words “given words to what I was feeling” ring true for me. I am a Teacher, currently out of the classroom - as waking up to the state of our world while working in our education system over the covid pandemic was too much for me, then. I’ve been building my own resilience and working on my well-being in order to clarify how I can be of value in the future. Thank you for your work. You add so much value and forever promote new learning for me and many more. Kia Ora. Mel.
gosh Mel, that's a powerful juxtaposition. The fact that the Ozone layer (the issue from at least 10 years ago) is their most recent update on NZ.
BTW, one of the most heartening/revealing things I note in this community - the number of teachers engaged in this topic. You are all at the coal face in a very real and important way.
I think this is what is most appropriate right now, building our resilience and our worth. So that we do not descend into violence within ourselves , within our families and within our communities.
Hi Mel. It's funny, but my daughter recently returned from a science conference in NZ (first trip there), and apart from the stunning landscapes, the thing she raved about the most was the fantastic way your country has navigated it's relationship between Indigenous people and the "colonisers" (what description is best here? Ancestors of invaders?). She definitely thought Australia could learn so much about Indigenous rights and respect from NZ - what a tragedy if this is lost, and not built upon further. In fact, it's probably a good example of Indy's proposed value quantification of things (where AI can do good, I suspect). Indigenous self-determination, etc., make NZ look good. That helps tourism. Visitors potentially think it's a safe, thoughtful, 'advanced' country when they see old and new cultures peacefully, almost cheerfully, co-existing. I imagine no one has calculated the economic value of this, but it must be substantial?
Yes, I hear you. Australia’s indigenous do not have a Treaty. NZs founding document has played an integral part in ‘balancing’ relations with my ancestors (Colonising British). Though, it’s extremely complex and flawed. I was glued to the events over the last week, and felt a familiar level of ‘shame’ about historical happenings. I live in the South Island in a predominantly ‘white’ community and over the years have been disappointed with interactions with students and families when I used Te Reo in the classroom. Yes, some of NZ is fair, kind and respectful - and the other end of the race relation spectrum exists. I’ve watched Māori unite as community during this hīkoi and it’s impressive. And, yes, the economic value of kiwi culture has been activated for many decades, sadly damaging some of our natural environment and often missing the deeper/spiritual connection of people and land. There’s a lot of ‘tokenism’ My feeling is that the new generations are savvy, intelligent and aware of the importance of taking back agency. I’m confident there will be more protests. More disruption…..like the rest of the world. Perhaps this is NZs version of the shift.
Guess the reason for posting after listening to this episode was to say “it’s happening everywhere“ -various forms of collapse / restructuring. I used to think NZ was a sleepy second cousin that would ride out the global storm in seclusion. Don’t think that now. I also believe that we colonials could do well to push pause, slow down and look for answers in indigenous practices.
Really good points, Mel. My earlier post to you mentioned surface level impressions, but of course reality is far more nuanced. I apologise to everyone for my comment about the "value" of culture to NZ sounding flippant - definitely didn't mean to disregard the racism, violence, and othering that underpins Australia and NZ's recent histories and structures, thereby affecting these cultures.
I also just listened to Indy's ABC Big Ideas talk that Sarah linked for us, and like you, he suggests that running away to NZ won't mean escaping what's happening elsewhere. We are just too interconnected, and interdependent.
This takes how I felt after the Meg Wheatley episode to a whole other level. I think you were wise to issue your warning and it's also very generous of you to offer this space to people who need to process it.
I'm currently sitting in the "fuck it all" headspace and I know I need to allow myself to stay here for a few days until I figure out what's on the other side for me.
I walked up the street to buy my groceries and it's a beautiful sunny day and there's people everywhere laughing and sitting at outdoor cafes enjoying themselves and I felt like Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 watching the children in the playground.
I think I will just continue on with what I've been doing anyway as I am making some major life changes.
I need to build offline community and spend time in nature.
Indy's thoughts are very interesting and ring true for me and he's an amazingly intelligent person, but I struggle sometimes with lots of jargon and "heady" conversation. Even with you, Sarah, interjecting and breaking it down I still struggled. I will go back and listen to it and see if I can get more of an understanding of what's being discussed with a second listen.
I love Nate Hagen's podcasts and can only just grasp the concepts he discusses. But I understand that he is talking to a particular audience. I feel that the message (as well as our lives) needs to be simplified. You do a great job Sarah, with simplifying the message. I'm not sure why I struggled so much to understand a lot of what was being said, other than the scary timeline prediction.
I have felt in the past when "experts" or even intelligent commentators make it all a bit "heady" and wordy it leaves people such as myself behind. The message needs to be able to reach more people, but then maybe most people don't want to know.
Me too! I have had "Catch up SW" on my to do list for about 8 weeks. Sometimes, my brain needs to take a break and integrate all the new information it's received. I recently realised this is what was happening for me during these periods of overwhelm and I am starting to find ways to be kind & gentle to myself and my brain during this process instead of feeling annoyed at myself and worrying about not keeping up with the frantic onslaught of information constantly coming through.
I’m with you Karola..twisted my brain into a pretzel trying to follow Nate interviewing a fellow brainiac this week:) I’ve decided to leave certain knotty topics to them..I’m just emerging from my Fuck it all response to the US election, I’ve unsubscribed from most social media and news outlets, am focusing on slowing down, reading, nature and deepening ties within my local community. I do take heart in the comment section here, it all makes a difference. Take care
Bravo Jane...I'm going to come off social media when I can. For the moment I'm kind of contractually locked in with some of my projects. Def phasing out.
Yes this, I’m on my second listen. I feel like I need a lecture type slide to go with it for me to fully comprehend what’s being said. I think the thing that stood out to me was the “othering” concepts. I see it EVERYWHERE and I’m guilty of it myself. I sat in a sauna last night with a bunch of men who were talking of trump and climate hoaxes and sky news sitting next to my water bottle covered in free Palestine stickers. I said “it’s so hard to have conversations about these things anymore” and they all nodded and agreed (perhaps not for the same reasons I think it is hard) but yes we must try and put a pin in the “othering” we are all in this shitshow together.
I know what you mean about the lecture slide! I'm a very visual learner. I am trying hard to stop the othering in my own life. I didn't have the words for it until now!
Ok a second listen with lots of rewinding and I have a much clearer understanding of the subject, the comments have helped too. Listening back I don't feel that there's too much jargon or wordiness, I think Indy is very clear and articulate. For me to absorb it all just took a couple of listens, I'm normally a visual learner. Thanks Sarah for this very informative and interesting episode.
I'm with you Karola, I struggled too. May need a second listen - I did half at 6am driving to work and half on the way home admittedly with a very fried brain!
Came hoping for some translation and thoughts in the comments here from much better brains than mine!
I love Nate Hagens too but have to pick and choose which topics/guests I commit to listening to. Have to bypass some that are beyond me! Often find his Frankly episodes, where he breaks thoughts or concepts down on his own better for me to take in.
Thank you both for your honesty and frankness. It didn’t scare me—well, the 5–10 years part did a little! But this conversation has lit a fire in me! No more fear about rocking boats with my words or work. This conversation was a call to the front line. And you’re right, Sarah. I believe part of that front line is helping people connect with the inner resources available to all of us—if we get our minds out of the way.
I know in my own life, if I hadn’t embarked on what Joseph Campbell calls the “inner journey”—had I not done the messy, hard, but ultimately liberating work of looking at my own sh*t—I know I’d be voiceless. But having walked that path, I see clearly now: the only way through is through. Through our individual and collective darkness, we can rediscover an inner wellspring of compassion, strength, resilience—and yes, love. Love for this beautiful blue dot floating in space. Love for each other.
And we no longer have the luxury (not that we ever did) of finding our own inner resolve/calm and then retreating to some island or cave to live in peace. Inner work and justice work, healing and service, the personal and the political—they must go hand in hand. But I believe the inner work must come first.
Because when we lead from the heart, we can vote for X without demonising those who vote for Y. We can call out injustice without dehumanising the other. We can stand for peace without berating those who don’t stand with us.
I’d love to hear thoughts on this idea—that individual healing can be a pathway to collective healing. Because if we lose our heart and humanity entirely in the sh*t show, what else is left? Returning to the heart is how I’m equipping myself—and my kids—for what lies ahead, and for what is already here.
And I love your framing - the inner and outer work must operate in tandem. It's not enough to go into a faux spiritual cocoon. Monks must come down from mountains!
Me, I am careful not to think I must do the inner healing BEFORE doing the outer work. One facilitates and assists the other. We do both at once...in a complex, whole dynamic. My activism has taken me to a personal peace and maturity I would not have got to without the challenge.
I really resonate with this Sarah. I call my work "love work" because it was born from a big life disruption, some introspection, some experiments at different things, back to spiritual / personal dev work, then finding my place and running with it. Even now, going from despair to action is a daily challenge and learning to live with that roller coaster is part of the ride of this thing called 'life'.
That's a great point, Sarah. Sometimes, I get stuck on the need to do the inner healing first. But we simply don't have time for that! 'One facilitates and assists the other'. I love this. Thanks for that a-ha moment!
Thank you for sharing this episode. I woke up despondent today about the global mess, so this episode was very timely. I sat with a colleague at work and we talked through this after we listened, as it directly relates in so many ways to the work we do (especially the food systems priority). It also validates so much of the thinking and talking we have done in work at community level in the South Pacific concerning what resilience actually is (and how we talk to our donors about this). I had a little cry at the end (because of the weight of the violence) and then took a deep breath and spent some time in reanimation of the trees and plants around me, glad for the reminder that everything we touch is “the work.”
Hi, I work in “knowledge and learning” (such a mouthful of a title) for an NGO called Live & Learn Environmental Education that is a network of locally registered non-profit organisations across the Pacific. We are very localised, working in a community-led way as much as possible for strengthened resilience to impact of climate change through ecosystem restoration or “nature-based solutions.” We also do water security work, and carbon/forest protection. For the past three years most of my time has been on a specific programme where we work with communities in 6 countries (including Vanuatu!) on integration of different ways of being/knowing in climate resilience approaches (in grant proposal speak we integrate “western” science and Indigenous knowledge in nature positive approaches to resilience). It’s messy, slow, everyone involved has different interpretations based on their different mindsets and history, etc (impact of colonisation and missionaries and modern economic pressures), but we are seeing slow transformation of the kinds discussed in the podcast. Reconnection with complete dependence on natural systems, acknowledgement and importance of tradition, local, Indigenous knowledge, etc. But every year the natural systems experience more stress, the natural cycles are changed, the storms are worse. https://livelearn.org/climate-resilient-islands/
Hi Sarah and Indy. Thank you for an utterly profound talk. I am so grateful to you both - for the topics discussed, for the honesty, and for the dignity with which you treat your audience. Despite the warning that the material would be confronting, and of course, it was, I unexpectedly finished the podcast with an overwhelming sense of gratitude. I hope others found Indy's innovative modelling and the work being done by Dark Matter Labs as important as I did.
I am lucky enough to have a family member who innately, unflinchingly views the world through a non-speciesist lens. They have taught me over the years to discard so many assumptions and biases, and to reframe my thinking. I am slowly learning. Hearing Indy describe the necessity of agency for all of the natural world is therefore inspiring, and if such things initially require a costing, or an economic context in order to be accepted by some societies, so be it. I suspect there would be very few redundant species, or landforms, or weather systems, etc. Similarly, assessing our lives and our consumption via the term "bio-nutrition" also makes perfect sense, especially when considering terra preta (another concept that is new to me, but fascinating). While such ideas do not diminish the tragedy of violence being inflicted upon human and non-human animals, environments, and cultures, they can prompt us to make more compassionate, considerate choices, which then potentially influence others to make more compassionate, considerate choices. As per Sarah's advice.
In the meantime, as always, the gutless thugs who hold the weapons also hold us by the throats. So I understand why Indy's scenarios all come up as terminal. Nevertheless, I hope some of us can muster the energy, and the creativity, and the intelligence, to promote Indy's suggested slingshot alternatives, for example. Aim for what's right, not what's inevitable.
Brilliant talk, Sarah. Thank you, as always
P.S. I actually searched "Indy Johar tshirt" after the podcast. Thank you for all the work you do, Indy!
Wow - what a brain Indy has! I do, however, have trouble with the mindset that thinks that the 'human machine arc' narrative is a good thing??? Maybe I misunderstood that line of argument.
Having said that, the thinking around food systems change is exactly where I'm at - funnily enough values-based supply chains is my thing!! The problem is, there's no money being invested in it right now. 20 years of activism in this space has yielded very few supporters. So, hearing him suggest that a lot of money is going to be invested in resilience is music to my ears!
I also love the examples of taking a grounded, local approach with local governments - very in line with the thinking of David Fleming. Thank you Sarah for pushing Indy to reveal what we can be doing and 'being' and 'becoming' individually as we face these multiple horizons.
I hear you. I can't tell you how many times people have looked at me after explaining what I do and saying, "that's cute, but....." Obviously I haven't communicated the message clearly enough, but also sometimes ears aren't ready to hear things too...
I've also been working in the values based space for over a decade now, specifically in values based communications. It's still an uphill battle, everyone sees the world through a marketing lens and looks for quick wins (even the well meaning organisations and programs), with the language continually used entrenching extractivism further.
Would love to learn more about values-based supply chains, especially around food systems!
I feel that values based systems will be incorporated in almost all larger systems. As the violence increases (passive aggressive and outwardly aggressive). Businesses, farms, communities, organisations which hold values and accountability as precious as a bottom line. Will be the only ones worth investing in or left standing.
I agree with the lack of progress in value based value chains. In my work I find it bonkers that this isn’t a given or foundational thinking when doing value chain analysis. It’s so nature blind and arrogant to ignore (externalise) this!
Thank you for this interview and the space to process it all. Honestly, I found this refreshingly honest and to the point. We do have a duty here. Although I always have in the back of my mind an interview with Tyson Yunkaporta from 2021, where he said something like "our people have lived through many apocalypses". And I'm filled with a sense of deep time and a reminder of what true resilience looks like.
Oh dear, as much as I went to listen to this I’m not sure I can hold space for the realities mentioned…..I know in my heart that timeline feels true, but what that truth looks like I do not know, it still feels too scary to look at
I’d love to ask, in general, how everyone copes with the predicted reality that we may only have 5,10 or 15 years left before…..? I’ve read the chapter are we all going to die, and this interview kind of makes me feel that’s the case? I know none of us know what our personal time lines will be, we never have, life’s unpredictable. This is a massive call and timely reminder to live in the present, but I’m finding it hard to wrap my head around these predictions. I guess I’m stuck in the overwhelm space, not sure how to move to the acceptance space. Any suggestions would be welcomed 🥹
Something that helps me is to remember that the only time that is real is the present. Everything is predictions and modelling, we don’t know for certain (even if likely). BUT I can live today (as much as our stupid systems let me) with the values that should be our foundations. These are the “dark matter” things we don’t question or value that are behind many choices or systems. So the things Indy mentioned as actions are things you can do now. Soil, food, community, are a great place to start. Sometimes the overwhelm is from a twisted obligation that you as an individual must know, think, care, DO EVERYTHING. But we don’t. We just have to do our bit and trust that others are doing their bit - like Indy said, the work is everywhere. Talking with like minded people helps too.
Thank you Michelle - this is a helpful salve and framing, I can definitely feel the liberation this type of thinking creates, fighting back against the systems that don’t serve us to live a meaningful life.
And a good reminder we can’t individually carry the weight of this all, I just need to find some local Londoners who are engaging in this space :)
Because none of us really know what the future holds, I'm trying to spend my time on the things that really matter to me: spending time with my adult kids and really being present in the moment with them, being in nature, simplifying my life as much as possible, consuming less, figuring out ways I can be of service, making sure I conduct myself with dignity and integrity (to the best of my ability).
I'm feeling the same. I think I will wait a little while and read some comments first. I've read your warnings Sarah (thank you), so perhaps the hard part is already done, I'm not sure. Need to let that sit for a little while first.
This was a great interview but I did get a bit lost somewhere along the line! I thought he was saying (in my simplified words) we need to do this massive shift very quickly if we want to save the human race (the slingshot) OR we'll descend into continued civil unrest and violence (beginning partly because of food scarcity, which Jem Bendel also predicted would be sooner than we think). Then at the end he talked about being worried about the violence (which has already begun). So does that rule out the slingshot?
I think you are on the right track Sarah re your question about your “place” in all of this.
How to make a living out of this will arise.
As I speak many come to mind.
Do you know those old Aerobic Oz Style Shows, live to air (or maybe pre recorded), everyone turns in on the Tele and does their morning exercise.
Anyway, the modern equivalent comes to mind.
This community is one place, daily live vipassana , where you can sit in silence and observe yourself , while observing everyone else out there. Collective sitting in what the fuck just is.
I have a business idea for online group and solo therapy.
Your collapse book, and your fuck I need a walk book.
Tech can help spread the effects and also minimise the impacts.
Some mornings I wake up and meditate and exercise and then sit on subs and send out my random musings. It helps.
I ask though Sarah, can you double check your internal biases, is there a tendency towards doom (or maybe I see possibly a delusional optimism like mine 🥸). I have both, so they kind of balance it all out.
Or rather , I think you are the canary in the coal mine. Your experiences and physiology mean you had to give up earlier than everyone else. You broke first. And from there had to look at the reality of life.
And your ability with words and communication are allowing you to share your discoveries with a large audience.
Resilience is key right now too.
I found that my own resilience was lacking , and could not keep up with my own self violence, nor the violence of my daughter. In response to the uncertainty of relational collapse, adolescence and societal collapse.
Glad that you’re taking a break from some projects , and seem to be building the battery of the future.
Personally , and I know that you are exploring relational resilience and health. Which translates to all relationships (ecological, financial, global).
Honesty is key, and the willingness to be selfish and ask to be alone , or also to be selfish and ask for togetherness. In order to manage the emotional and physical load. And also to allow the gaps in time and space for new ways to emerge.
These are the arcs , which accelerate and build things greater and faster than the sum of the parts or individuals involved.
As they hold more power than molochian arcs that we have been exploring previously.
Your brain goes on some wild, fun tangents, Steve! Collapse Oz Style...!!!
I'm going to run your "fuck I need a walk book" line past my publisher as a potential title!!!
Thanks for challenging me on your question.I challenge myself on it often. I don't tend to preference doom. I'm mostly a very optimistic person. I don't give up. I fight because I believe goodness is the vibe of the universe. However I am a very pragmatic person and I prefer to veer on the side of what is likely and to be ready for it. I think it's worth exploring fully the expert- established worst-case and really-very-probable (but not locked in yet) scenarios...with eyes wide open...so that we KNOW what could happen and can bear it in mind, try our best to avoid it etc. This is what the human negativity bias exists for - to wake us up before the pot hits boiling point.
Then I pull back and try to operate in what, either way, WILL transpire. In our current case, it is nigh guaranteed things will be really really shit and hard and despairing going forward. I think we can say this with 99.9% certainty. How hard, we don't know (and this is also what I focus on ...dealing with this not knowing). And, so, we get ready for this decline.
I then bundle up my natural optimism and fight and put it to emotionally and spiritually comprehending the role of despair, of hard times, of cycles of collapse and creation.
Was discussing with my partner about the tendency to scroll , and that it is just the same as having the radio on in the background , or the TV back in the day
We all want to know that “someone” is there
A remedy against the abyss of existential crisis
And made me think about those old shows, and the morning shows, connection
Have often thought about running a live stream on my instagram in the mornings
Just me meditating for 15 and maybe a poem if one comes
Soothing for me, and so many lonely souls out there
and yes
100 %
Like the scouts say
Prepare for the worst , expect the best
It is not easy to see things clearly and want to share them
Especially with so much noise and uncertainty in the day to day already
I have not sensed any doom porn from you, just questions. And people are searching for those questioning things. That’s why Trump got in via his ruse , and the narcissistic conspirators are running wild.
Keep going , the noise will fade away or will get so noisy people will be looking for the calm farm
A great interview in so many ways, my main take away was Indy talking about the priority of changing the value of a human, in our thinking and in our economies.
The historical and current perspective is that humans are part of the extractive economy. They’re to exploit and only have value as worker or consumer.
This is a tangent, but what is happening in Gaza is the visible systemic violence that Indy talks about. It is demonstrating that this ethnic group has no value , rights or even access to food. This de humanises us all, as it is normalising genocide and violence against innocent civilians, especially against children…Gaza is setting a precedent , a new low in (evil) morality and the devaluing of life , that plays into the increase in violence Indy predicts.
That is why we must do all we can to stop it , for those whose life’s are being destroyed now and for those who will be next. Raising the value of humans means everyone , regardless of location, ethnicity, gender or religion….this is something we can do today ❤️🩹
Yes! And the points Indy and Sarah made about ‘othering’ and how we need to look to Indigenous wisdoms on land stewardship. All the years of oppression of Indigenous people, and ignoring their relationship to land has come back to bite us! We reap what we sow…
Can I double check the time prediction? I know this isn't the be all and end all of the interview. But he says '10-15 years' when you ask him... it's only you that mentions 5-10 years - though he doesn't correct you. Is he using that timeline in other avenues?
I listened to that episode with my whole body. Thank you. I felt like how I have been feeling for the last couple of years was massively validated. My body knows that things are bad and are going to continue to get bad and sure that doesn’t sound hopeful but I am also no longer interested in hope, just love. Love requires action, hope can feel quite passive.
My own personal journey has been one of retraining as a trauma informed somatic therapist and embodiment facilitator. That whole episode spoke to so many of my experiences. The more embodied I become the more I feel into the interconnectedness of everything and the more my heart breaks and the more I want to do everything I can.
The topic around animism or agency to nature as it was framed in the podcast is something that has become bigger and bigger for me as I really feel into that connection. I talk to trees, I thank the sea when I swim, I try to attune myself to the rhythm of the stones. There is so much grief. And I really do feel like one thing I can offer is grief work. Because so many people when they awaken to this reality are going to be overwhelmed with grief. It’s the avoidance of that which is probably causing the most amount of apathy.
I saw Robin Wall Kimmerer speak earlier in the year. Someone asked her where do we find hope and she said only once we can grieve will we find hope.
Thanks for your reflection, Ami. I really resonate with your sentiments about animism and giving agency to nature. I live in East Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory, where Yolŋu people maintain an enduring and vibrant relationship with everything. In Yolŋu culture, everything is kin—there is no separation.
In my work, I work closely with Yolŋu leaders to deliver cross-cultural competency training, and a story often shared during these sessions comes to mind. It involves the late Rev. Dr. Gondarra, a respected Yolŋu leader who used to deliver the same training across the NT. During one session on kinship, a participant—a self-described "salt of the earth" Aussie hippie—interjected, saying he felt a philosophical connection with Yolŋu people because he too believed in the idea of nature as "Mother Earth."
Rev. Dr. Gondarra responded by gently but firmly correcting him, explaining that he had missed the point. For Yolŋu people, there isn’t a single, overarching concept of Mother Earth. Instead, every part of the landscape is understood through a complex web of kinship relationships. For example, the beach to the left might be his mother’s country, the bush leading toward the river systems his uncle’s country, and the island out at sea his father’s country.
This story has stayed with me as a profound reminder of the depth and complexity of cultural and social relationships with the world. While the concept of Mother Earth can foster compassion and connection with the non-human world, I think there is an opportunity to expand our understanding further. Embracing or at least pondering on a kinship framework like that of Yolŋu people invites us into a richer, more intricate relationship with the landscape—one that deepens our sense of belonging and responsibility within an interconnected web of life.
Mmmm complex web of kinship. Yes it’s exactly that. When people reference Mother Nature it still feels like a duality, like it’s something separate from us and it’s not. We are it and we are a part of this incredible system.
You only need to look at our bodies to understand this. Like the breath cycle is an act of reciprocity with plants, lights and minerals.
Wow, what an incredible episode! I’ll need to listen again, especially to the second half where Indy explains the pathways to fully understand it, but I thoroughly enjoyed learning those ideas around nature having agency (I fist pumped when you two were talking about this!), the concept of bionutritive vs biodegradable (mind blowing!), and how humans are integral to rebuilding nature, like the way we cultivated the Amazon (Jem Bendell talks about this in his book too, and how as a keystone species we have this ability).
I feel somewhat prepared for whatever lies ahead and have intuitively felt this decade-long timeline. Being part of this community and listening to the Wild podcast has been transformative, helping me shift focus toward more meaningful activities (nature, connection, play) and detaching from all the messy, unproductive noise and consumption cycle (esp of media). It’s not easy, though - there’s a constant pull from the capitalist driven, mafia-like vortex (to borrow from The Godfather: “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!”).
So I'm at peace with whether I’m a victim or a survivor of what's to come. C’est la vie. Taking a more stoic approach helps me, as does thinking in we vs me terms (if we or nature survives, great - I'm not all that important in the grand scheme of things), and in the meantime, focusing on showing up in ways that reflect my values and humanity - embodying that warrior of the human spirit as Meg Wheatley so beautifully puts it.
Bloody hell, I haven't listened to this one yet (I will get a chance on Friday morning whilst driving to a work meeting) but the chat thread is a pre-warning for a doozy.
Omg half way through this podcast and I am so relieved to hear 10-15 year limit as that resonates so strongly. The fact that a new world view is not a choice but a duty and vested interests are increasingly seeing the need as well as the ground level commitment and intuitive knowing makes me more hopeful now. And I know it is urgent now.
I’ve recently returned home (New Zealand) from a trip in America. I was in the States on voting day and spoke with a few people. What became apparent was that violence was definitely on the table for ‘both sides’. I sat on a domestic US flight next to a retired American woman, who described feeling so nervous about the potential violence - that she, at 67, went out and purchased a firearm. Spoke with another American woman on flight bound for NZ who described being ecstatic about the results and truly believed that the ‘savvy businessman’ now in power was going to fix their country. Her and her husband are currently in NZ, touring around. She asked about life here in NZ, and confessed her only understanding of things was being aware of the Ozone layer (or lack of). Little did she, or I know, that a day after they drove off in their camper a protest march of predominantly thousands of Māori (indigenous people of NZ) blocked roads, flooding public transport and walked to our nations Parliament. I left the US witnessing political unrest, and an underlying ‘hum’ of violence to arrive home to NZ to something truly significant. While the protest (Hīkoi) is peaceful, it has promoted a flood of strong emotions, viral videos, potential division and a general sense of unease. I always enjoy listening to your podcasts Sarah, and attempt to synthesis new learnings from the many wonderful experts you have. This episode is powerful and Indy’s words “given words to what I was feeling” ring true for me. I am a Teacher, currently out of the classroom - as waking up to the state of our world while working in our education system over the covid pandemic was too much for me, then. I’ve been building my own resilience and working on my well-being in order to clarify how I can be of value in the future. Thank you for your work. You add so much value and forever promote new learning for me and many more. Kia Ora. Mel.
gosh Mel, that's a powerful juxtaposition. The fact that the Ozone layer (the issue from at least 10 years ago) is their most recent update on NZ.
BTW, one of the most heartening/revealing things I note in this community - the number of teachers engaged in this topic. You are all at the coal face in a very real and important way.
I think this is what is most appropriate right now, building our resilience and our worth. So that we do not descend into violence within ourselves , within our families and within our communities.
Yup, Operation Calm the Farm
Yes, I agree. 🤞
Btw I am sooooo impressed with the NZ crew , their politicians , how they speak and act. First class 👌🏼 and that protest 🔥
ditto
Kia Kaha Mel. Wasn't the Hikoi incredible!
The level of crystal clear NO that the Māoris can exhibit , and their such warm YES 🙌🏼
This level of presence is needed so much , it cuts through the bullshit which permeates politics and media
Hi Mel. It's funny, but my daughter recently returned from a science conference in NZ (first trip there), and apart from the stunning landscapes, the thing she raved about the most was the fantastic way your country has navigated it's relationship between Indigenous people and the "colonisers" (what description is best here? Ancestors of invaders?). She definitely thought Australia could learn so much about Indigenous rights and respect from NZ - what a tragedy if this is lost, and not built upon further. In fact, it's probably a good example of Indy's proposed value quantification of things (where AI can do good, I suspect). Indigenous self-determination, etc., make NZ look good. That helps tourism. Visitors potentially think it's a safe, thoughtful, 'advanced' country when they see old and new cultures peacefully, almost cheerfully, co-existing. I imagine no one has calculated the economic value of this, but it must be substantial?
Thanks for a really interesting post, Mel.
Enjoy being back home
Yes, I hear you. Australia’s indigenous do not have a Treaty. NZs founding document has played an integral part in ‘balancing’ relations with my ancestors (Colonising British). Though, it’s extremely complex and flawed. I was glued to the events over the last week, and felt a familiar level of ‘shame’ about historical happenings. I live in the South Island in a predominantly ‘white’ community and over the years have been disappointed with interactions with students and families when I used Te Reo in the classroom. Yes, some of NZ is fair, kind and respectful - and the other end of the race relation spectrum exists. I’ve watched Māori unite as community during this hīkoi and it’s impressive. And, yes, the economic value of kiwi culture has been activated for many decades, sadly damaging some of our natural environment and often missing the deeper/spiritual connection of people and land. There’s a lot of ‘tokenism’ My feeling is that the new generations are savvy, intelligent and aware of the importance of taking back agency. I’m confident there will be more protests. More disruption…..like the rest of the world. Perhaps this is NZs version of the shift.
Guess the reason for posting after listening to this episode was to say “it’s happening everywhere“ -various forms of collapse / restructuring. I used to think NZ was a sleepy second cousin that would ride out the global storm in seclusion. Don’t think that now. I also believe that we colonials could do well to push pause, slow down and look for answers in indigenous practices.
Thanks for reading. Really appreciate this forum.
Really good points, Mel. My earlier post to you mentioned surface level impressions, but of course reality is far more nuanced. I apologise to everyone for my comment about the "value" of culture to NZ sounding flippant - definitely didn't mean to disregard the racism, violence, and othering that underpins Australia and NZ's recent histories and structures, thereby affecting these cultures.
I also just listened to Indy's ABC Big Ideas talk that Sarah linked for us, and like you, he suggests that running away to NZ won't mean escaping what's happening elsewhere. We are just too interconnected, and interdependent.
This takes how I felt after the Meg Wheatley episode to a whole other level. I think you were wise to issue your warning and it's also very generous of you to offer this space to people who need to process it.
I'm currently sitting in the "fuck it all" headspace and I know I need to allow myself to stay here for a few days until I figure out what's on the other side for me.
I walked up the street to buy my groceries and it's a beautiful sunny day and there's people everywhere laughing and sitting at outdoor cafes enjoying themselves and I felt like Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 watching the children in the playground.
I think I will just continue on with what I've been doing anyway as I am making some major life changes.
I need to build offline community and spend time in nature.
Indy's thoughts are very interesting and ring true for me and he's an amazingly intelligent person, but I struggle sometimes with lots of jargon and "heady" conversation. Even with you, Sarah, interjecting and breaking it down I still struggled. I will go back and listen to it and see if I can get more of an understanding of what's being discussed with a second listen.
I love Nate Hagen's podcasts and can only just grasp the concepts he discusses. But I understand that he is talking to a particular audience. I feel that the message (as well as our lives) needs to be simplified. You do a great job Sarah, with simplifying the message. I'm not sure why I struggled so much to understand a lot of what was being said, other than the scary timeline prediction.
I have felt in the past when "experts" or even intelligent commentators make it all a bit "heady" and wordy it leaves people such as myself behind. The message needs to be able to reach more people, but then maybe most people don't want to know.
The Sarah Connor feeling - I get that. So surreal.
Don't give yourself a hard time about the jargon etc. I struggle too and may head is in it 24/7 and I research my guests' ideas before we speak.
I'm with you re the heady-ness of this space. I touch on it in the Metacrisis chapter...
I have a lot of catch up reading to do....I tapped out for a bit.
Me too! I have had "Catch up SW" on my to do list for about 8 weeks. Sometimes, my brain needs to take a break and integrate all the new information it's received. I recently realised this is what was happening for me during these periods of overwhelm and I am starting to find ways to be kind & gentle to myself and my brain during this process instead of feeling annoyed at myself and worrying about not keeping up with the frantic onslaught of information constantly coming through.
I get the need to let your brain catch up. I have weeks to catch up on too!
Great that you've found what works for you in terms of self-care, so important :-)
I’m with you Karola..twisted my brain into a pretzel trying to follow Nate interviewing a fellow brainiac this week:) I’ve decided to leave certain knotty topics to them..I’m just emerging from my Fuck it all response to the US election, I’ve unsubscribed from most social media and news outlets, am focusing on slowing down, reading, nature and deepening ties within my local community. I do take heart in the comment section here, it all makes a difference. Take care
Bravo Jane...I'm going to come off social media when I can. For the moment I'm kind of contractually locked in with some of my projects. Def phasing out.
Thanks Jane. I find solace in this wonderful community and I seem to be doing very similar things to you.
Yes this, I’m on my second listen. I feel like I need a lecture type slide to go with it for me to fully comprehend what’s being said. I think the thing that stood out to me was the “othering” concepts. I see it EVERYWHERE and I’m guilty of it myself. I sat in a sauna last night with a bunch of men who were talking of trump and climate hoaxes and sky news sitting next to my water bottle covered in free Palestine stickers. I said “it’s so hard to have conversations about these things anymore” and they all nodded and agreed (perhaps not for the same reasons I think it is hard) but yes we must try and put a pin in the “othering” we are all in this shitshow together.
Yep, a pin in the "othering". And role model the better way (with our Free Palestine stickers!)
I know what you mean about the lecture slide! I'm a very visual learner. I am trying hard to stop the othering in my own life. I didn't have the words for it until now!
Ok a second listen with lots of rewinding and I have a much clearer understanding of the subject, the comments have helped too. Listening back I don't feel that there's too much jargon or wordiness, I think Indy is very clear and articulate. For me to absorb it all just took a couple of listens, I'm normally a visual learner. Thanks Sarah for this very informative and interesting episode.
I'm with you Karola, I struggled too. May need a second listen - I did half at 6am driving to work and half on the way home admittedly with a very fried brain!
Came hoping for some translation and thoughts in the comments here from much better brains than mine!
I love Nate Hagens too but have to pick and choose which topics/guests I commit to listening to. Have to bypass some that are beyond me! Often find his Frankly episodes, where he breaks thoughts or concepts down on his own better for me to take in.
I hear you Ali! I recommend a second listen, it really helped. I had to take notes though.
I only recently discovered Nate records his podcasts on youtube....watching with subtitles on really helps me!
Thank you both for your honesty and frankness. It didn’t scare me—well, the 5–10 years part did a little! But this conversation has lit a fire in me! No more fear about rocking boats with my words or work. This conversation was a call to the front line. And you’re right, Sarah. I believe part of that front line is helping people connect with the inner resources available to all of us—if we get our minds out of the way.
I know in my own life, if I hadn’t embarked on what Joseph Campbell calls the “inner journey”—had I not done the messy, hard, but ultimately liberating work of looking at my own sh*t—I know I’d be voiceless. But having walked that path, I see clearly now: the only way through is through. Through our individual and collective darkness, we can rediscover an inner wellspring of compassion, strength, resilience—and yes, love. Love for this beautiful blue dot floating in space. Love for each other.
And we no longer have the luxury (not that we ever did) of finding our own inner resolve/calm and then retreating to some island or cave to live in peace. Inner work and justice work, healing and service, the personal and the political—they must go hand in hand. But I believe the inner work must come first.
Because when we lead from the heart, we can vote for X without demonising those who vote for Y. We can call out injustice without dehumanising the other. We can stand for peace without berating those who don’t stand with us.
I’d love to hear thoughts on this idea—that individual healing can be a pathway to collective healing. Because if we lose our heart and humanity entirely in the sh*t show, what else is left? Returning to the heart is how I’m equipping myself—and my kids—for what lies ahead, and for what is already here.
I feel the calling, too.
And I love your framing - the inner and outer work must operate in tandem. It's not enough to go into a faux spiritual cocoon. Monks must come down from mountains!
Me, I am careful not to think I must do the inner healing BEFORE doing the outer work. One facilitates and assists the other. We do both at once...in a complex, whole dynamic. My activism has taken me to a personal peace and maturity I would not have got to without the challenge.
I really resonate with this Sarah. I call my work "love work" because it was born from a big life disruption, some introspection, some experiments at different things, back to spiritual / personal dev work, then finding my place and running with it. Even now, going from despair to action is a daily challenge and learning to live with that roller coaster is part of the ride of this thing called 'life'.
That's a great point, Sarah. Sometimes, I get stuck on the need to do the inner healing first. But we simply don't have time for that! 'One facilitates and assists the other'. I love this. Thanks for that a-ha moment!
I feel so much of what you felt, Lara! In fact, minus the 5-10 years, I let
out a huge “I’m not crazy afterall” exhale. You might enjoy this book, which speaks to the inner / outer journey that I too believe will ultimately heal each of us and all of us. https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/nature-works-activating-regenerative-leadership-consciousness_giles-hutchins/52936535/item/64356720/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_new_condition_books_high&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=593819619485&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADwY45hhmQN1UCzxANi1JzgMZ456k&gclid=CjwKCAiArva5BhBiEiwA-oTnXbOWGdrwy0fKzw-VsLNBoGOPlKdD3XRuMrrZ7QHSCk8qTT6FukJ8bRoCkCoQAvD_BwE#idiq=64356720&edition=71383144
Thanks so much, Janna!
Thank you for sharing this episode. I woke up despondent today about the global mess, so this episode was very timely. I sat with a colleague at work and we talked through this after we listened, as it directly relates in so many ways to the work we do (especially the food systems priority). It also validates so much of the thinking and talking we have done in work at community level in the South Pacific concerning what resilience actually is (and how we talk to our donors about this). I had a little cry at the end (because of the weight of the violence) and then took a deep breath and spent some time in reanimation of the trees and plants around me, glad for the reminder that everything we touch is “the work.”
What kind of work do you do Michelle? I have two brothers who worked in the South Pacific in climate projects (one of them is currently in Vanuatu)
Hi, I work in “knowledge and learning” (such a mouthful of a title) for an NGO called Live & Learn Environmental Education that is a network of locally registered non-profit organisations across the Pacific. We are very localised, working in a community-led way as much as possible for strengthened resilience to impact of climate change through ecosystem restoration or “nature-based solutions.” We also do water security work, and carbon/forest protection. For the past three years most of my time has been on a specific programme where we work with communities in 6 countries (including Vanuatu!) on integration of different ways of being/knowing in climate resilience approaches (in grant proposal speak we integrate “western” science and Indigenous knowledge in nature positive approaches to resilience). It’s messy, slow, everyone involved has different interpretations based on their different mindsets and history, etc (impact of colonisation and missionaries and modern economic pressures), but we are seeing slow transformation of the kinds discussed in the podcast. Reconnection with complete dependence on natural systems, acknowledgement and importance of tradition, local, Indigenous knowledge, etc. But every year the natural systems experience more stress, the natural cycles are changed, the storms are worse. https://livelearn.org/climate-resilient-islands/
Hi Sarah and Indy. Thank you for an utterly profound talk. I am so grateful to you both - for the topics discussed, for the honesty, and for the dignity with which you treat your audience. Despite the warning that the material would be confronting, and of course, it was, I unexpectedly finished the podcast with an overwhelming sense of gratitude. I hope others found Indy's innovative modelling and the work being done by Dark Matter Labs as important as I did.
I am lucky enough to have a family member who innately, unflinchingly views the world through a non-speciesist lens. They have taught me over the years to discard so many assumptions and biases, and to reframe my thinking. I am slowly learning. Hearing Indy describe the necessity of agency for all of the natural world is therefore inspiring, and if such things initially require a costing, or an economic context in order to be accepted by some societies, so be it. I suspect there would be very few redundant species, or landforms, or weather systems, etc. Similarly, assessing our lives and our consumption via the term "bio-nutrition" also makes perfect sense, especially when considering terra preta (another concept that is new to me, but fascinating). While such ideas do not diminish the tragedy of violence being inflicted upon human and non-human animals, environments, and cultures, they can prompt us to make more compassionate, considerate choices, which then potentially influence others to make more compassionate, considerate choices. As per Sarah's advice.
In the meantime, as always, the gutless thugs who hold the weapons also hold us by the throats. So I understand why Indy's scenarios all come up as terminal. Nevertheless, I hope some of us can muster the energy, and the creativity, and the intelligence, to promote Indy's suggested slingshot alternatives, for example. Aim for what's right, not what's inevitable.
Brilliant talk, Sarah. Thank you, as always
P.S. I actually searched "Indy Johar tshirt" after the podcast. Thank you for all the work you do, Indy!
Harry, your use of the word "dignity" really touches me.
Lovely summary Harry, I also ended the podcast in a better mental place than I started.
thanks Michelle
im looking to be brave and dive in; this is encouraging
thanks too Harry, a space of gratitude also encouraging and a balm, notwithstanding the obvious
Wow - what a brain Indy has! I do, however, have trouble with the mindset that thinks that the 'human machine arc' narrative is a good thing??? Maybe I misunderstood that line of argument.
Having said that, the thinking around food systems change is exactly where I'm at - funnily enough values-based supply chains is my thing!! The problem is, there's no money being invested in it right now. 20 years of activism in this space has yielded very few supporters. So, hearing him suggest that a lot of money is going to be invested in resilience is music to my ears!
I also love the examples of taking a grounded, local approach with local governments - very in line with the thinking of David Fleming. Thank you Sarah for pushing Indy to reveal what we can be doing and 'being' and 'becoming' individually as we face these multiple horizons.
The "go local" message is a revelation for me, too. Heard it for years but always felt it was too small-scale.
And thanks for noticing how I push/guide guests! ha!
I hear you. I can't tell you how many times people have looked at me after explaining what I do and saying, "that's cute, but....." Obviously I haven't communicated the message clearly enough, but also sometimes ears aren't ready to hear things too...
I've also been working in the values based space for over a decade now, specifically in values based communications. It's still an uphill battle, everyone sees the world through a marketing lens and looks for quick wins (even the well meaning organisations and programs), with the language continually used entrenching extractivism further.
Would love to learn more about values-based supply chains, especially around food systems!
I feel that values based systems will be incorporated in almost all larger systems. As the violence increases (passive aggressive and outwardly aggressive). Businesses, farms, communities, organisations which hold values and accountability as precious as a bottom line. Will be the only ones worth investing in or left standing.
I agree with the lack of progress in value based value chains. In my work I find it bonkers that this isn’t a given or foundational thinking when doing value chain analysis. It’s so nature blind and arrogant to ignore (externalise) this!
Yes!!!! Would love to know more about your work Michelle. To me, it's just common sense.
Don't worry, I just read your previous reply to Sarah - wonderful work you're doing!
Thank you for this interview and the space to process it all. Honestly, I found this refreshingly honest and to the point. We do have a duty here. Although I always have in the back of my mind an interview with Tyson Yunkaporta from 2021, where he said something like "our people have lived through many apocalypses". And I'm filled with a sense of deep time and a reminder of what true resilience looks like.
It's a very good reminder. I'm writing something similar now.
Oh dear, as much as I went to listen to this I’m not sure I can hold space for the realities mentioned…..I know in my heart that timeline feels true, but what that truth looks like I do not know, it still feels too scary to look at
I really get it. I really encourage you do what you're doing...allowing your nervous system to determine when you're ready. Overwhelm helps no one.
I’d love to ask, in general, how everyone copes with the predicted reality that we may only have 5,10 or 15 years left before…..? I’ve read the chapter are we all going to die, and this interview kind of makes me feel that’s the case? I know none of us know what our personal time lines will be, we never have, life’s unpredictable. This is a massive call and timely reminder to live in the present, but I’m finding it hard to wrap my head around these predictions. I guess I’m stuck in the overwhelm space, not sure how to move to the acceptance space. Any suggestions would be welcomed 🥹
Something that helps me is to remember that the only time that is real is the present. Everything is predictions and modelling, we don’t know for certain (even if likely). BUT I can live today (as much as our stupid systems let me) with the values that should be our foundations. These are the “dark matter” things we don’t question or value that are behind many choices or systems. So the things Indy mentioned as actions are things you can do now. Soil, food, community, are a great place to start. Sometimes the overwhelm is from a twisted obligation that you as an individual must know, think, care, DO EVERYTHING. But we don’t. We just have to do our bit and trust that others are doing their bit - like Indy said, the work is everywhere. Talking with like minded people helps too.
Thank you Michelle - this is a helpful salve and framing, I can definitely feel the liberation this type of thinking creates, fighting back against the systems that don’t serve us to live a meaningful life.
And a good reminder we can’t individually carry the weight of this all, I just need to find some local Londoners who are engaging in this space :)
Because none of us really know what the future holds, I'm trying to spend my time on the things that really matter to me: spending time with my adult kids and really being present in the moment with them, being in nature, simplifying my life as much as possible, consuming less, figuring out ways I can be of service, making sure I conduct myself with dignity and integrity (to the best of my ability).
When I read “5-10 years” my first thought was, 5 years of intentional living is better than 50 years of aimless, meandering and pointless living.
Maybe cutting it short might improve the quality?
I don’t know, something to ponder.
I'm feeling the same. I think I will wait a little while and read some comments first. I've read your warnings Sarah (thank you), so perhaps the hard part is already done, I'm not sure. Need to let that sit for a little while first.
Same
This was a great interview but I did get a bit lost somewhere along the line! I thought he was saying (in my simplified words) we need to do this massive shift very quickly if we want to save the human race (the slingshot) OR we'll descend into continued civil unrest and violence (beginning partly because of food scarcity, which Jem Bendel also predicted would be sooner than we think). Then at the end he talked about being worried about the violence (which has already begun). So does that rule out the slingshot?
I'll get Indy to set this straight for you!! He'll be online shortly.
I think you are on the right track Sarah re your question about your “place” in all of this.
How to make a living out of this will arise.
As I speak many come to mind.
Do you know those old Aerobic Oz Style Shows, live to air (or maybe pre recorded), everyone turns in on the Tele and does their morning exercise.
Anyway, the modern equivalent comes to mind.
This community is one place, daily live vipassana , where you can sit in silence and observe yourself , while observing everyone else out there. Collective sitting in what the fuck just is.
I have a business idea for online group and solo therapy.
Your collapse book, and your fuck I need a walk book.
Tech can help spread the effects and also minimise the impacts.
Some mornings I wake up and meditate and exercise and then sit on subs and send out my random musings. It helps.
I ask though Sarah, can you double check your internal biases, is there a tendency towards doom (or maybe I see possibly a delusional optimism like mine 🥸). I have both, so they kind of balance it all out.
Or rather , I think you are the canary in the coal mine. Your experiences and physiology mean you had to give up earlier than everyone else. You broke first. And from there had to look at the reality of life.
And your ability with words and communication are allowing you to share your discoveries with a large audience.
Resilience is key right now too.
I found that my own resilience was lacking , and could not keep up with my own self violence, nor the violence of my daughter. In response to the uncertainty of relational collapse, adolescence and societal collapse.
Glad that you’re taking a break from some projects , and seem to be building the battery of the future.
Personally , and I know that you are exploring relational resilience and health. Which translates to all relationships (ecological, financial, global).
Honesty is key, and the willingness to be selfish and ask to be alone , or also to be selfish and ask for togetherness. In order to manage the emotional and physical load. And also to allow the gaps in time and space for new ways to emerge.
These are the arcs , which accelerate and build things greater and faster than the sum of the parts or individuals involved.
As they hold more power than molochian arcs that we have been exploring previously.
Make sense 🧐😝?
Your brain goes on some wild, fun tangents, Steve! Collapse Oz Style...!!!
I'm going to run your "fuck I need a walk book" line past my publisher as a potential title!!!
Thanks for challenging me on your question.I challenge myself on it often. I don't tend to preference doom. I'm mostly a very optimistic person. I don't give up. I fight because I believe goodness is the vibe of the universe. However I am a very pragmatic person and I prefer to veer on the side of what is likely and to be ready for it. I think it's worth exploring fully the expert- established worst-case and really-very-probable (but not locked in yet) scenarios...with eyes wide open...so that we KNOW what could happen and can bear it in mind, try our best to avoid it etc. This is what the human negativity bias exists for - to wake us up before the pot hits boiling point.
Then I pull back and try to operate in what, either way, WILL transpire. In our current case, it is nigh guaranteed things will be really really shit and hard and despairing going forward. I think we can say this with 99.9% certainty. How hard, we don't know (and this is also what I focus on ...dealing with this not knowing). And, so, we get ready for this decline.
I then bundle up my natural optimism and fight and put it to emotionally and spiritually comprehending the role of despair, of hard times, of cycles of collapse and creation.
Or maybe
Fuck This ! I am out of here
30 great walks when you need to calm the farm
Not that I see any biases as such ☺️ it’s just that this is big and needs all bases covered 😝
I definitely have biases...my challenge is to work to use them in good ways, not be blinded by them!
Yep 🥸🤣🤪
Strange places
Was discussing with my partner about the tendency to scroll , and that it is just the same as having the radio on in the background , or the TV back in the day
We all want to know that “someone” is there
A remedy against the abyss of existential crisis
And made me think about those old shows, and the morning shows, connection
Have often thought about running a live stream on my instagram in the mornings
Just me meditating for 15 and maybe a poem if one comes
Soothing for me, and so many lonely souls out there
and yes
100 %
Like the scouts say
Prepare for the worst , expect the best
It is not easy to see things clearly and want to share them
Especially with so much noise and uncertainty in the day to day already
I have not sensed any doom porn from you, just questions. And people are searching for those questioning things. That’s why Trump got in via his ruse , and the narcissistic conspirators are running wild.
Keep going , the noise will fade away or will get so noisy people will be looking for the calm farm
Or want to go for a fucking walk 😅
https://open.spotify.com/track/343ySUa7BIhKTLOFgVzzYc?si=1tg7pQcgQ0SM5R1FgzlaGw&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A3yxhUZL9Rnj4elVVgwdwpq
A track for your day or night everyone
We need a smile and a boogie 🙌🏼
A great interview in so many ways, my main take away was Indy talking about the priority of changing the value of a human, in our thinking and in our economies.
The historical and current perspective is that humans are part of the extractive economy. They’re to exploit and only have value as worker or consumer.
This is a tangent, but what is happening in Gaza is the visible systemic violence that Indy talks about. It is demonstrating that this ethnic group has no value , rights or even access to food. This de humanises us all, as it is normalising genocide and violence against innocent civilians, especially against children…Gaza is setting a precedent , a new low in (evil) morality and the devaluing of life , that plays into the increase in violence Indy predicts.
That is why we must do all we can to stop it , for those whose life’s are being destroyed now and for those who will be next. Raising the value of humans means everyone , regardless of location, ethnicity, gender or religion….this is something we can do today ❤️🩹
Yes! And the points Indy and Sarah made about ‘othering’ and how we need to look to Indigenous wisdoms on land stewardship. All the years of oppression of Indigenous people, and ignoring their relationship to land has come back to bite us! We reap what we sow…
Can I double check the time prediction? I know this isn't the be all and end all of the interview. But he says '10-15 years' when you ask him... it's only you that mentions 5-10 years - though he doesn't correct you. Is he using that timeline in other avenues?
My mistake! But Indy can chime in here to confirm.
I had the same question
yes, i picked up on that too.
I listened to that episode with my whole body. Thank you. I felt like how I have been feeling for the last couple of years was massively validated. My body knows that things are bad and are going to continue to get bad and sure that doesn’t sound hopeful but I am also no longer interested in hope, just love. Love requires action, hope can feel quite passive.
My own personal journey has been one of retraining as a trauma informed somatic therapist and embodiment facilitator. That whole episode spoke to so many of my experiences. The more embodied I become the more I feel into the interconnectedness of everything and the more my heart breaks and the more I want to do everything I can.
The topic around animism or agency to nature as it was framed in the podcast is something that has become bigger and bigger for me as I really feel into that connection. I talk to trees, I thank the sea when I swim, I try to attune myself to the rhythm of the stones. There is so much grief. And I really do feel like one thing I can offer is grief work. Because so many people when they awaken to this reality are going to be overwhelmed with grief. It’s the avoidance of that which is probably causing the most amount of apathy.
I saw Robin Wall Kimmerer speak earlier in the year. Someone asked her where do we find hope and she said only once we can grieve will we find hope.
Thanks for your reflection, Ami. I really resonate with your sentiments about animism and giving agency to nature. I live in East Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory, where Yolŋu people maintain an enduring and vibrant relationship with everything. In Yolŋu culture, everything is kin—there is no separation.
In my work, I work closely with Yolŋu leaders to deliver cross-cultural competency training, and a story often shared during these sessions comes to mind. It involves the late Rev. Dr. Gondarra, a respected Yolŋu leader who used to deliver the same training across the NT. During one session on kinship, a participant—a self-described "salt of the earth" Aussie hippie—interjected, saying he felt a philosophical connection with Yolŋu people because he too believed in the idea of nature as "Mother Earth."
Rev. Dr. Gondarra responded by gently but firmly correcting him, explaining that he had missed the point. For Yolŋu people, there isn’t a single, overarching concept of Mother Earth. Instead, every part of the landscape is understood through a complex web of kinship relationships. For example, the beach to the left might be his mother’s country, the bush leading toward the river systems his uncle’s country, and the island out at sea his father’s country.
This story has stayed with me as a profound reminder of the depth and complexity of cultural and social relationships with the world. While the concept of Mother Earth can foster compassion and connection with the non-human world, I think there is an opportunity to expand our understanding further. Embracing or at least pondering on a kinship framework like that of Yolŋu people invites us into a richer, more intricate relationship with the landscape—one that deepens our sense of belonging and responsibility within an interconnected web of life.
Mmmm complex web of kinship. Yes it’s exactly that. When people reference Mother Nature it still feels like a duality, like it’s something separate from us and it’s not. We are it and we are a part of this incredible system.
You only need to look at our bodies to understand this. Like the breath cycle is an act of reciprocity with plants, lights and minerals.
Thank you so much for sharing that story.
Wow, what an incredible episode! I’ll need to listen again, especially to the second half where Indy explains the pathways to fully understand it, but I thoroughly enjoyed learning those ideas around nature having agency (I fist pumped when you two were talking about this!), the concept of bionutritive vs biodegradable (mind blowing!), and how humans are integral to rebuilding nature, like the way we cultivated the Amazon (Jem Bendell talks about this in his book too, and how as a keystone species we have this ability).
I feel somewhat prepared for whatever lies ahead and have intuitively felt this decade-long timeline. Being part of this community and listening to the Wild podcast has been transformative, helping me shift focus toward more meaningful activities (nature, connection, play) and detaching from all the messy, unproductive noise and consumption cycle (esp of media). It’s not easy, though - there’s a constant pull from the capitalist driven, mafia-like vortex (to borrow from The Godfather: “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!”).
So I'm at peace with whether I’m a victim or a survivor of what's to come. C’est la vie. Taking a more stoic approach helps me, as does thinking in we vs me terms (if we or nature survives, great - I'm not all that important in the grand scheme of things), and in the meantime, focusing on showing up in ways that reflect my values and humanity - embodying that warrior of the human spirit as Meg Wheatley so beautifully puts it.
Bloody hell, I haven't listened to this one yet (I will get a chance on Friday morning whilst driving to a work meeting) but the chat thread is a pre-warning for a doozy.
Omg half way through this podcast and I am so relieved to hear 10-15 year limit as that resonates so strongly. The fact that a new world view is not a choice but a duty and vested interests are increasingly seeing the need as well as the ground level commitment and intuitive knowing makes me more hopeful now. And I know it is urgent now.