I wrote it because I think the idea of Moloch is both deadly serious and quite fun, and it has many layers, and I wanted to play with how they overlap. I hope you readers of This is Precious enjoy it.
There's a lot going on here, so in case it helps, a few thoughts to help set the scene:
First, it is probably right that Moloch is a he because the idea of "a game theory monster" speaks to the limitations of logic and rational self-interest and also some of the blinkers of patriarchy.
Second, Moloch is the personification of something impersonal, but we rarely talk of Moloch as if he had an inner life, which is perhaps the most fundamental feature of personhood. My work at Perspectiva is about the relationship between the external world, our inner worlds, and our shared social world. We call that 'systems, souls, and society'. The challenge with Moloch is that he is about 'the system' but it's important not to forget that systems have psyches too, you just have to know where to look for them, and how to draw them out...
Third, in light of the history of the idea of Moloch, we think of him as a demon, but just as the Rolling Stones had a song called "Sympathy for the Devil" back in the day, we make a mistake if we assume all forms of resistance to what we think of as good come from a wilful place. So idea of a demon who has design constraints that lead him to harm humanity, but doesn't necessarily want to harm us, intrigued me - what would that feel like subjectively?
Fourth, in what ways might thinking about Moloch in therapy help us see more clearly what is asked for us in the context of major global collective action problems? In imagining Moloch in therapy, we are also imagining ourselves - as a global collective - in therapy too.
Fifth, the original post includes a more extended introduction to Moloch. Sarah has been covering that in recent posts and conversations so I understand why she edited it out here, but if you really want to the idea to get under your skin, I would check out the Howl poem written by Ginsberg in 1954 and the subsequent reflection by Scott Alexander, and then of course all the more recent work of Liv Boeree.
I have a fairly full day ahead, wrestling with Moloch, going to therapy, and enjoying this one wild and precious life, but I will check in later if you have any queries.
Wow, Sarah and Jonathon, thanks for a intriguing post. I am going to have to sit and mull some of it for a while. I love the therapist mechanism for discussing these ideas, it feels like it frees my preconceptions and asks me to be more reflective. But I also find it a bit challenging as you are not telling me what to think :)
I've three initial thoughts, the first @sarah488116 helped crystallise:
The absence of connection and mother, speaks to me as a metaphor for our loss of connection with the natural world. Jonathon, this section: "A longing. An absence. An awareness that I need a mother’s love more than anything else in the world, and since I will never have it I want to scream and howl like a wolf for the lack of it. I have so many fathers, an infinity of absent fathers, but no mother at all." If you substitute in the natural world for the mother and perhaps the capitalist system for the absent fathers it feels like truth.
Secondly, Moloch as scapegoat feels real and dangerous in the same way hope can be dangerous. By letting us off the hook we may feel inclined to do nothing - after all, the system, you know, bigger than us, what could we possibly do? Could it in fact drive the, "I am going to grab what I can, while I can" tendency in humans. Fascinating that every framing we find can have a positive and negative, ultimately it is up to us to decide how we want to behave and be involved moving forward.
Thirdly, You gave the example of feeding Moloch smartphones and GDP rather than child sacrifices - I don't think I agree, I think we are feeding moloch our children and possibly all life on earth because we are valuing the wrong things, sacrificing everything of true value at the altar of more.
Thank you for the mental work out, like I said, I'm going to need to sit with it for a bit! xo
I was intrigued by the orphan status of moloch and the lack of a parent's unconditional love. As someone right in the thick of parenting and trying to do all the right things regarding creating strong attachments with my kids, I can see how a lack of such attachment can certainly lead to the chaos of moloch. We're seeing it in public schools around the world, the aggression and violent acts of students are increasing.
I also think about how a lack of strong healthy attachments and childhood trauma, abuse or neglect likely led people like Trump, Netanyahu, Hitler, etc, etc.
I'm currently reading Hold On to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté about the threat of peer orientation versus parent orientation with healthy attachment and it all seems connected to moloch.
I found a copy of Allen Ginsbergs 1956 poem Howl today in a used bookstore. Part of it contains repeated, forceful denunciations of Moloch. Before being introduced to the concept here I would not have understood the term. Thank you for the enlightenment. So much to think about.
I am curious if there has ever been a time in human history when Philosophers became “up for it” ?
When they stopped speaking with each other, or those lucky enough to have the spare time and the spare money to indulge. And instead stepped out onto the streets?
I guess Substack is a step onto the pavement for many people , but curious about how we can step out of our own echo chambers.
And initiate more far reaching discussions and dialogue.
I know that there are many voices out there, but so many have an angle or ideology.
Philosophising though not essentially pragmatic, is a good place to start to initiate curiosity and potential win wins.
Just feeling a little bit of that spark that Moloch is craving and thinking out loud 😅
Is it true that Moloch is both a symptom of patriarchal / matriarchal systems , but also the cure? As the imbalance brings it all down around us , the outcome is also the first part of the solution?
Thanks Jade! ❤️ It's really an excellent book and yet the concepts are so simple and intuitive if we weren't being distracted by capitalism, individualism, this bizarre desire for kids to grow up before they're ready. I got a lot of pushback from my inlaws when they wanted my kids to sleep over at their house when in my mind, they were too young. And they would have been miserable.
One of Neufeld's solutions to peer orientation (as you know since you read the book), is to greet children after a separation. That seems so obvious! And it's so depressing that that needs to be mentioned at all. If humans are so broken that we aren't doing something as simple as that? I don't know... Thanks for the offer of a chat! Right back at you! 😊
1. At least: it's possible that change is possible.
1.1. Or is he just a 'demon of the gaps'?
2. Can we not love Moloch, like a mother would?
3. Can Moloch not have a child, a smaller chip off the old block that'd be more manageable, while he himself can change through parenthood?
4. Why do we aim for more always, Vs equilibrium: harmony within a non-zero sum framing? Moloch feels like he enters the stage as unintended higher order stable dynamics, namely equilibrium just at a higher level not across levels.
Have given it a read before dinner and post surf so will have another go once the blood sugar levels are back up 😅
Have you seen The Creator?
I need to rewatch as it was on a small screen and terrible Jetstar sound. So missed a lot of the dialogue.
But interesting takes on AI, and its potential intentions and desires.
I like America being the bad guys in this one. After they have a big dummy spit when their AI is poorly programmed and causes havoc. The resulting scramble for control. The hunting down of the mother of AI (no tech bros here 😝) and heroes that are up for it.
There is a line in the movie where a member of the AI community explains that all that (it,they) want is peace and to live.
If humans program AI , like god making us in its image, maybe we will do the same. With Moloch present , but balanced with the more tangible, and creative force of love? Is love the opposite of Moloch? But you know that feeling , Moloch explains it quite well to their therapist ☺️.
Logic, even though it is cold and angular, warms to the fact that win / win is the most gentle, productive, and respectful way forward in challenge. Maybe we will be surprised, and AI will just ask us WTF? How about we do it this way? Isn’t it obvious? Jeeeeeez 😅
Thanks to Sarah for sharing this post 🙏
I wrote it because I think the idea of Moloch is both deadly serious and quite fun, and it has many layers, and I wanted to play with how they overlap. I hope you readers of This is Precious enjoy it.
There's a lot going on here, so in case it helps, a few thoughts to help set the scene:
First, it is probably right that Moloch is a he because the idea of "a game theory monster" speaks to the limitations of logic and rational self-interest and also some of the blinkers of patriarchy.
Second, Moloch is the personification of something impersonal, but we rarely talk of Moloch as if he had an inner life, which is perhaps the most fundamental feature of personhood. My work at Perspectiva is about the relationship between the external world, our inner worlds, and our shared social world. We call that 'systems, souls, and society'. The challenge with Moloch is that he is about 'the system' but it's important not to forget that systems have psyches too, you just have to know where to look for them, and how to draw them out...
Third, in light of the history of the idea of Moloch, we think of him as a demon, but just as the Rolling Stones had a song called "Sympathy for the Devil" back in the day, we make a mistake if we assume all forms of resistance to what we think of as good come from a wilful place. So idea of a demon who has design constraints that lead him to harm humanity, but doesn't necessarily want to harm us, intrigued me - what would that feel like subjectively?
Fourth, in what ways might thinking about Moloch in therapy help us see more clearly what is asked for us in the context of major global collective action problems? In imagining Moloch in therapy, we are also imagining ourselves - as a global collective - in therapy too.
Fifth, the original post includes a more extended introduction to Moloch. Sarah has been covering that in recent posts and conversations so I understand why she edited it out here, but if you really want to the idea to get under your skin, I would check out the Howl poem written by Ginsberg in 1954 and the subsequent reflection by Scott Alexander, and then of course all the more recent work of Liv Boeree.
I have a fairly full day ahead, wrestling with Moloch, going to therapy, and enjoying this one wild and precious life, but I will check in later if you have any queries.
Jonathan
Wow, Sarah and Jonathon, thanks for a intriguing post. I am going to have to sit and mull some of it for a while. I love the therapist mechanism for discussing these ideas, it feels like it frees my preconceptions and asks me to be more reflective. But I also find it a bit challenging as you are not telling me what to think :)
I've three initial thoughts, the first @sarah488116 helped crystallise:
The absence of connection and mother, speaks to me as a metaphor for our loss of connection with the natural world. Jonathon, this section: "A longing. An absence. An awareness that I need a mother’s love more than anything else in the world, and since I will never have it I want to scream and howl like a wolf for the lack of it. I have so many fathers, an infinity of absent fathers, but no mother at all." If you substitute in the natural world for the mother and perhaps the capitalist system for the absent fathers it feels like truth.
Secondly, Moloch as scapegoat feels real and dangerous in the same way hope can be dangerous. By letting us off the hook we may feel inclined to do nothing - after all, the system, you know, bigger than us, what could we possibly do? Could it in fact drive the, "I am going to grab what I can, while I can" tendency in humans. Fascinating that every framing we find can have a positive and negative, ultimately it is up to us to decide how we want to behave and be involved moving forward.
Thirdly, You gave the example of feeding Moloch smartphones and GDP rather than child sacrifices - I don't think I agree, I think we are feeding moloch our children and possibly all life on earth because we are valuing the wrong things, sacrificing everything of true value at the altar of more.
Thank you for the mental work out, like I said, I'm going to need to sit with it for a bit! xo
I was intrigued by the orphan status of moloch and the lack of a parent's unconditional love. As someone right in the thick of parenting and trying to do all the right things regarding creating strong attachments with my kids, I can see how a lack of such attachment can certainly lead to the chaos of moloch. We're seeing it in public schools around the world, the aggression and violent acts of students are increasing.
I also think about how a lack of strong healthy attachments and childhood trauma, abuse or neglect likely led people like Trump, Netanyahu, Hitler, etc, etc.
I'm currently reading Hold On to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté about the threat of peer orientation versus parent orientation with healthy attachment and it all seems connected to moloch.
I found a copy of Allen Ginsbergs 1956 poem Howl today in a used bookstore. Part of it contains repeated, forceful denunciations of Moloch. Before being introduced to the concept here I would not have understood the term. Thank you for the enlightenment. So much to think about.
I am curious if there has ever been a time in human history when Philosophers became “up for it” ?
When they stopped speaking with each other, or those lucky enough to have the spare time and the spare money to indulge. And instead stepped out onto the streets?
I guess Substack is a step onto the pavement for many people , but curious about how we can step out of our own echo chambers.
And initiate more far reaching discussions and dialogue.
I know that there are many voices out there, but so many have an angle or ideology.
Philosophising though not essentially pragmatic, is a good place to start to initiate curiosity and potential win wins.
Just feeling a little bit of that spark that Moloch is craving and thinking out loud 😅
Is it true that Moloch is both a symptom of patriarchal / matriarchal systems , but also the cure? As the imbalance brings it all down around us , the outcome is also the first part of the solution?
Thanks Jade! ❤️ It's really an excellent book and yet the concepts are so simple and intuitive if we weren't being distracted by capitalism, individualism, this bizarre desire for kids to grow up before they're ready. I got a lot of pushback from my inlaws when they wanted my kids to sleep over at their house when in my mind, they were too young. And they would have been miserable.
One of Neufeld's solutions to peer orientation (as you know since you read the book), is to greet children after a separation. That seems so obvious! And it's so depressing that that needs to be mentioned at all. If humans are so broken that we aren't doing something as simple as that? I don't know... Thanks for the offer of a chat! Right back at you! 😊
1. At least: it's possible that change is possible.
1.1. Or is he just a 'demon of the gaps'?
2. Can we not love Moloch, like a mother would?
3. Can Moloch not have a child, a smaller chip off the old block that'd be more manageable, while he himself can change through parenthood?
4. Why do we aim for more always, Vs equilibrium: harmony within a non-zero sum framing? Moloch feels like he enters the stage as unintended higher order stable dynamics, namely equilibrium just at a higher level not across levels.
Tasty morsel 🙏🏼
Have given it a read before dinner and post surf so will have another go once the blood sugar levels are back up 😅
Have you seen The Creator?
I need to rewatch as it was on a small screen and terrible Jetstar sound. So missed a lot of the dialogue.
But interesting takes on AI, and its potential intentions and desires.
I like America being the bad guys in this one. After they have a big dummy spit when their AI is poorly programmed and causes havoc. The resulting scramble for control. The hunting down of the mother of AI (no tech bros here 😝) and heroes that are up for it.
There is a line in the movie where a member of the AI community explains that all that (it,they) want is peace and to live.
If humans program AI , like god making us in its image, maybe we will do the same. With Moloch present , but balanced with the more tangible, and creative force of love? Is love the opposite of Moloch? But you know that feeling , Moloch explains it quite well to their therapist ☺️.
Logic, even though it is cold and angular, warms to the fact that win / win is the most gentle, productive, and respectful way forward in challenge. Maybe we will be surprised, and AI will just ask us WTF? How about we do it this way? Isn’t it obvious? Jeeeeeez 😅
Cheers for the quote too ✌🏼😝😎😁