I have chook story to tell (bizarre but true). I received 3 hens from my friend K. Her man partner was keen to tell me that the hens needed a rooster because he would find food for them, and protect them from predators. I observed and thought that they seem to find food for themselves, and that a rooster was no match for a fox. I also suspect a rooster is really focussed on protecting himself rather than them. A week later, I see a random chook in the driveway- I'm thinking "Oh my god, one of the hens has got out of the prison-quality hen protector". Until I see it's a rooster who desperately wants to get in and hang out with the hens. It turns out he had been abandoned by my neighbour and was lonely. One of the hens went out and joined him and coaxed him in. Hank is now a family with the 3 Graces (Tame, Jones, and Cossington-Smith) and he knows his place. For me it challenged the fundamental narrative that women need men and changed it to that men need women and need to find a place for themselves. I think I have always known it but there is a lot of effort put into convincing women that they are the ones in need. I think men are in crisis and I'm glad you are putting it out there.
Going to get some after some time in Europe later this year. They are such good company.
Found myself “triggered” by this one 😂
Ohh come on, we are important too 🙃😝
Let us fuss and find you some food and be tough 🙏🏼
But there is something to what you see
And makes me think about Sarah’s experiences of guys in her school , just being boys and having fun , raising hell in a good way and making people smile
In this debate about what guys are and should be , this touches on some fundamental truths for the “typical” man
I see us being lost without a proper cause , someone or something to rally around , assist , support and help. It is our natural instinct.
It is where we get stuck though, as there are a million “purposes and causes” out there, we do not know where to begin.
Plus there is an another fundamental truth about guys in play , without an action to take, we sit down and wait. And this leads to distraction and destruction from idle hands.
Though we are not living it
I see human beings at the core bring quite matriarchal , with women at the centre and men on the outside doing what needs to be done for the group
Relationship needs reframing into what it is supposed to be
Partnership for each individuals benefit , and the wholes wellbeing.
Navy Seals are effective as when they are on a mission, they do not focus on themselves, but on the safety of those around them.
If in down time the individual is developing themselves and looking after themselves, we are onto a winning situation.
And if we have a clear destination and shared goals , then damn, watch out 😎 good times are here 🙏🏼
Right now we have men and women utilising each other for vague, unspoken and often subconscious needs. Destroying each other to escape our anxiety.
We need some discussion around dating protocols, men need to ask women out directly, with clear intentions, we need better questions for ourselves and each other , and we need more radical honesty.
I am glad Hank came round to see what’s up, and that one of the Graces was brave enough to let the fox into the hen house 😝.
Oh Grace I am a chook lover and devotee of the fluffy bums & adore the 3 Graces story! Endless joy to watch the chookie behaviours. I have noticed that the 'roos always tell their girls that he is the boss and there to look after them. He announces food has been found and always eats last. However, how he behaves more generally, depends upon his breeding and manners (chooks can be such great metaphors).
Our current 'roo is dwarfed in size by our girls and though he is a bossy boots with all of the flock and excludes the ones he doesn't like so they look so sad, he seems generally pretty gentle.
Our last RooPaul was a glorious looking but total biatch & bully of a rooster and my darling husband would get very distraught (close to tears) at his agressive sexual predations. He wondered aloud whether this was what women put up with. Sigh. Yes many of us do. I tried everything including making a separate house for RooPaul and put him in the sin-bin for time outs. It was funny until it really wasn't anymore. He had to go!
Eventually we were rescued by the farmer who only keeps roos. I didn't ask too closely as to the reason why only roos as we got so desperate to rehouse RooPaul. Apparently when you have a flock of 'roos they stop behaving like 'roos and settle down. I couldn't eat him cos of too much attachment. Maybe the farmer eats them. Who knows? I wonder about their relationships in the all roo flock now but I dare not visit. Is it like jail for bad boys? Or do they form a fraternity and write ballads to the girls they left behind?
Haha I love this! I have 3 chooks and a rooster, and the rooster is such a wuss!! The chickens are a lot more bossy and brave. Such a good insight, like you its something I feel like I've know but never really thought too much about/had it put into words like this.
Thanks for sharing Sarah, at no point did your post feel like moaning. :)
I'm a guy in my mid-30s who has never been on any apps. I hate photos of myself and don't have any, so that prerequisite has barred me from the online dating avenue. I've always regretted this to an extent, as I'm sure that I've missed opportunities because of it, but based on your experiences, it sounds like I've also avoided some anguish.
I would love a relationship with a strong, independent woman with a broad range of interests and experiences. Unfortunately, the women like this who float into my life are always already in a relationship!
Maybe I just need to bite the bullet, take a photo of myself and wade into the murkiness of the apps. I'll at least be one of the men who are happy to set the time/place and be there when I say I will. I see time-wasting as one of the biggest sins, so I would never do that to somebody else.
Please keep these discussions going Sarah, I love how raw you've been with your posts lately!
Bradley, yes, the single women of the world need you to take that photo! Run the experiment. And even use the wording you've used here...radical honesty will cut through to the kind of woman you seem to be seeking.
And take your time, do not idly swipe away, sit and look for what you are looking for. Follow threads which lead to calm and a feeling of depth, walk away from jitters and sparks.
Relationship is stillness , drama is jitters
At least that’s my experience and two cents worth 😅
Hi Bradley. “Radical honesty” as Sarah has mentioned, will have many women lining up. There are single women craving your kind. Please get on line, you sound so refreshing. I know many young women that would fit your type. Try Bumble, its a good one.
I have thoughts on the apps....I think Bumble sets things up wrong. Responsibility planted on women to make first move - which I think gives men a get out card. But I think most ppl are on at least one... so you might meet them either way!
True , but the guy needs to also match still , and there is some protective barrier there, but yes it still messes with a natural flow.
One suggestion Brad is to hit Hinge and really answer the profile questions on there. And ask good questions yourself. The bumble girls are also most likely on Hinge as everyone seems to hedge their bets.
There is also an app called Paired , which I have been unable to use yet. But has good intentions. It is designed to assist communication and exploration between couples. Any one used it?
My wish (and a little market research here) is for an app which acknowledges male (and to some extent female) behaviour and encourages transparency and communication.
Make it super clear , I want sex or I want love and a relationship. Yes or no. No shame. Yes or no, let me know.
As well as some method of indication of behaviour and self reflection. Both for the reviewer and for the reviewed. Uber ratings but for dating. This will clear out those with low integrity immediately.
Indications of the number of interactions and actual dates. A way to track yourself and each other. Your own avoidance , and your own anxiety driven appetite for attention.
And mini lessons on relationships, dating, simple psychology. Think an A.I. Ester helping you out along the way. Along with random prompt questions for each party involved to spice things up and keep it fresh.
Hi Bradley! Bite the bullet, get a mate to take some photos of you & go for it. I met my wonderful, interesting, respectful, funny & quirky husband on Bumble 4 years ago at 36 years old. While I’d been on the apps for a looong time, he had just joined. After some lengthy messaging, he sent a photo of a hand written post-it-note with some date options I could choose from... I share this story with you to encourage you to wade in. There’s plenty of strong, independent and fascinating single women out there. You might just meet someone great. 😌
I assumed it wasn't pretty, but not quite to the extent you explained it. It's probably even worse for the women in the 18-25 range as well, as I know a few men at that age who are influenced by the Andrew Tates of the world and essentially just say what they think women want to hear just to sleep with them and move on. I've tried my best to explain to them why their actions are destructive, but they seem to think it's funny to ghost after they've gotten what they wanted.
As a women in her late 20's I can confirm it is just as bad if not worse. Its not only disappointing, but sometimes I grieve because we feel like we are "men-bashing" but in reality we love the men in our lives and we want that connection, but it seems like it's at the cost of our own emotional sanity.
Yes but I hope as more men and women talk to each other about these things the better chances we have at realising and try to solve these problems. I refuse to give up on finding love because of how the current dating world is going. Communication and patience is key! 😁 it also helps when you realise you aren’t alone in your struggles
Thank you for sharing Sarah! I was hoping at some stage you would! I can concur with many of the things you have said. I find that many men (in Australia and perhaps the West) are already jaded when on the apps. They expect (or feel entitled) to meet a woman who in their opinion ‘has it all’ and primarily this means 70% meeting their requirements physically and aesthetically. They put such emphasis on this that it crowds out the other values women bring to the table. If they pursue women who don’t meet their expectations or what they feel they are entitled to they treat those women very poorly. Goodness knows how you will be treated by men if you are overweight in Australia! Also I find few people in Australia (particularly men) who want to engage in conversation beyond the superficial pop and sporting culture that exists (theology, philosophy, books, art, history, travel anyone?) I personally have zero interest in men. It doesn’t feel like a sacrifice or I’m missing out. I have a rich spiritual life that I guess helps. I feel lonely at times but that’s because I have struggled to find likeminded souls or a tribe in Australia (because…well..Australia) and that is despite 3 years of trying in well meaning, diverse ways. I lean into the family and friends I have who understand me. Those who are following along know I am heading eventually back OS (unlikely to be in the West) but still getting ducks in a row. I’m going all in, in life and am proceeding on the basis that it will just be me! And I guess I have accepted that and at peace with it because looking back at the last 42 years of my life I have enough evidence of who I am (and who men are in this generation) that I am unlikely to meet a man that makes life better or my world bigger. Somehow I always have to get smaller. If someone comes along well ok, but I do not expect it.
Amy, this reflects where a lot of women are getting to - finding intimate fulfilment elsewhere. Which men are picking up on. They are starting to feel left behind by this, I believe.
OH MY GOODNESS. I'm only half way through and nodding my head off.
Our little community of Forbes has been rocked by the death of a beautiful young lady, Molly Ticehurst, two days ago. We are reeling. All the women. I cannot fully explain the impacts but it is palpable... in the shops, in our texts, in our conversations. It's like a big old "See. I told you men are not to be trusted." Hard going. And I'm explaining all of this to my 8 year old son.
I engaged my dear husband on your post tonight as I was really interested in his POV. We’ve 7 marriages between us.. (this is definitely the last 🤞🥰🙄) so we really have been out in the internet dating world like you although not for the last 8 yrs of being together.
From my earliest forays in about 2003 to the last ones in 2015 there was an enormous difference in behaviors from men.
Anyway Mr Joy was so appalled & furious hearing your story that men are behaving so badly and he was actually getting quite riled up by what he said is just shocking manners. He has no time for indecisive people and is all about the follow through in life. But then he’s a deal maker by profession so that makes sense. He took one look at your picture and was gobsmacked.
I think we’ll have more deep conversations on this over the next few days.
The idea that your experience is fundamentally about poor social graces makes me think that actually it’s more grounded in the depersonalization of our connections online now. It’s normal to read people trash talking others or trolling for example. There’s not the same care of others and particularly strangers. Phone calls are unusual even for good friends. We are all desperate for connection and yet we are not actually connecting. We are not really listening properly to each other. Obviously the blokes are not enjoying themselves either or they would be out on loads of dates but they are also complaining about a lack of fulfillment & loneliness. This bad behavior that you have copped Sarah seems to me to be symptomatic of a wider trend.
I think Esther Perel has been talking about the new AI - Artificial Intimacy with Brené Brown recently at SCSW & there’s so much juice in that conversation for this thread here.
Obviously the standout of Substack is that it’s so old school. So polite. Everyone is still listening deeply and communicating beautifully. People are connecting magnificently here. It’s so rare a place these days that it seems to me that it’s a phenomenon to pay attention to.
Once upon another lifetime I was a category designer and so this point I offer is for the techies to pay close attention: There’s some fundamental problems that need solving here. Therefore an opportunity to create a new platform that centers connection, deep listening to ALL genders about what they really want so that the connections actually happen IRL!
People are very wounded, grieving, frightened, and or angry and frustrated with their lives and the world right now. Not a great vibe for dating strangers perhaps?
There must be a lot of things that could be designed into the platforms to calmly apply a gentle balm and change the vibe and the behaviors and outcomes for all of the users.
Maybe a wild idea but it’s such a great conversation that you have started here. Thanks.
All your points are true. And thank you to your husband for his concern and care and outrage.
I think we ALL know where the problems lie ...but we're stuck in this system. So far in now, we can't back out. Moloch does its thing here, too.
I'm personally trying out a few things to break the circuit....I'm turning of social media except for twice a week. And am looking to come off all dating apps (except for now it's a good way to meet new people in a new city).
The artificial intimacy is rife , I or anyone can create an erotic encounter via text messages only, that is a terrifying reality. Very dangerous physically, energetically, and emotionally.
I slip up , but have committed to asking people face to face, and making phone calls to my friends and family
It is dumbfounding to feel the fear and avoidance within myself , even towards family and my best friends
I feel as if a conversation about reclaiming ‘play’ would be helpful here too. The early days of meeting new people, the lightness, the dance moves of getting to know others. Omg just the (very French) joy of flirting without any follow through required.
It’s as if we are all so armored up and transactional that we’ve lost sight of the joys of curiosity and discovering the new.
I love this! It just feels so heavy at the moment in the online world. To interact with men (and just people in general) without the pressure and just enjoying each other's company and letting things evolve organically, if they do even at all evolve.
It's not about eroticism for me, more just enjoying someone's company and lightly flirting if the attraction is there. And that risk is always present, so caution comes into to it too.
Yes you know the answer Steve except for women everywhere we have to be safe so it’s tricky for us. Sarah mentioned that she remembered the boys from her teens who were all fun to be around. I had the same with my gang of guys from high school who are all still friends even though now we’re in our sixties. I could flirt with all of them and I always felt safe. It was playful and yes sure sex happened on and off, but it wasn’t the main reason why we all hung out. In my gang though they respected us girls even though it was the days of Puberty Blues. Other boys didn’t respect us. I lived in many different parts of the world and I have never been a part of such a group anywhere else. So lucky.
Thanks Sarah. Molly's funeral is a community gathering at the local football oval - it's where we can all come together - on Thursday. It's thankfully a chance to mourn together. Lots of love to you as well.
I’m so sorry that I missed your text above on my first read through Cherie. I hope you’re doing ok after this week past. No words can make it better. The whole country is obviously reeling. Sending gentle thoughts your way.
Thank you for making me not feel like I am alone in this. I have been single for most of my adult life. I have tried the apps, I’ve tried exploring new activities in the hopes of meeting new people, I have tried not trying as they say (“it will happen when you least expect it”). All I seem to face is rejection in various forms. And I have been beaten down like many have by dating. I believe I have a lot to offer a potential partner even if I’m not the most attractive girl in a group. I am intelligent, financially stable, have a successful career and am more than capable of looking after myself. I sometimes wonder if it’s that independence, that lack of a need to be “saved by a man”, someone who is opinionated and will express it that perhaps is perceived as unattractive. But if that is it or men are threatened, then I’ll take my single life.
Yes, I think some of this has to do with being a woman who does not "need" a man. And so we need a conversation that shows some of us still "want" a male partner in our lives...and isn't that more legitimate, more secure?
I suspect that the new normal is a difficult one to navigate for guys who need to be delivering something or being someone. If we are not playing a role then who are we? Creates a lot of insecurity, and a lack of sense of control.
If we cannot manipulate or control a woman or life through money, our services or our bodies then how do we deal with our own anxieties and fears? Who are we, how do I contribute, how do I deal with my physical desires? And hearts needs? Lots of learning and new ways to be found
I think you’re naming the elephant in the room and inviting accountability. Totally agree that men have not been modelled how to exist in a mutually respectful partnership, and are more prone to avoiding feelings… it’s easier to colonise the moon rather than feel your feelings apparently.
I’m in a 12 year relationship with a man, that’s taken work but because he’s willing to go there, we have a truly intimate and respectful relationship. Our psychotherapist (a wise, experienced woman in her 60’s who’s worked in the game for decades) said the other week that he was ‘the 1% of the 1% of the %’
He’s an Aussie bloke, grew up on a farm and his parents had typical gender roles of the 70’s… BUT he was well nurtured, and he’s loyal, accountable and open to learning/ growing. I do think most relationships are the long game and take work.. you’ve just got to find someone who’s willing to do the work with you. There’s gotta be one out there… tricky to find if you can’t even get to the friken first date though.
In our house we have been discussing that there appears to be an increasingly-angry (violently angry) belief that the success of women is the reason that some men are flailing. I *always* think of these Augie March lyrics:
Now I know you like your boys to take their medicine
From the bowl with a silver spoon
Who run away with the dish and scale the fish
By the silvery light of the moon
Who were taught from the womb to believe to the tune
In as far as their bleeding eyes see
It's a pleasure pen, meant for them, built for and rent for them
Angie March was the second band I interviewed. I went to their home town in Victoria (Daylesford?) and we walked around talking poetry. I think I was 25.
I think it’s because men are starting to realise we don’t really need them anymore. And the angrier they are, the more we distance ourselves from each other. I’ve been in Sydney almost five years and am yet to have a relationship. It’s a desert. And I’ve always been fine everywhere else.
I (quietly) ask the same question. And also figure that trends such as this do tend to start in decadent places (just like collapse)...and there is hardly a more decadent city in the world than Sydney
It's also interesting how avoidant people have become in bars / clubs. I'm mostly single and fully sober so I people watch a lot and where groups used to mix in a bar as the night progressed, it seems now, every group is it's own entity and there's an unwillinginess to look up and out at the possibilities right in front of them. How did we get here? Fear? Or the fun phenomenon of huge ego/low self esteem?
Sucks to have so many no shows, Sarah. What's that quote Brene brown references... "Courage starts with showing up and letting ourselves be seen."
I love attachment theory and believe it really is quite valuable to understand but I’m starting to get weary (and bored!) about how it gets used for everything! I do agree there is this avoidant, lazy approach to dating and connection going on but I don’t necessarily think it’s attachment at play in that way… Esther Perel talks about how we used to meet people through friends, and while out with friends and you see who people really are in these contexts and I think that’s a part of it all, apps and dating now feels very isolated. The most fun “dates” I’ve had are with men when they weren’t planned dates, I notice I’m less in my head and just enjoy their company. Which is what it’s meant to be about!
As I mentioned in the previous Moloch post, I really think attachment trauma issues are the basis for many of the world's problems, including it seems, dating.
Yes to both of your points of view, there is a lack of social skills and also our pain points are being squeezed. So any anxiety driven attachment styles are at full bloom
Yes why is it people don't talk to each other in bars anymore, more interested in checking out the apps when a real person is standing right in front of them!
Yep - its that or people only get the courage to walk up and talk to someone if they are drunk, using alcohol as a crutch for being able to communicate....
My friends tried to pair me up with a woman , she was to busy throwing back drinks, complaining about men, and checking tinder all night to notice that I was standing right in front of her
Sarah, your observations and how you frame it says it all. And the stories and comments that I am reading here, as well. There are a couple of great guys here weighing in on their perspectives, but that is painfully lacking everywhere else. And the dating industry for straight folks is rampant with really bad advice that props this up from so called dating experts (men and women). It goes like this... women have to be in their feminine (implying soft, submissive) to attract the masculine (implying assertive, dominant). These old tropes are more prevalent right now I find as men fall farther behind and struggle. It's the women that have to change. Women aren't "feminine" enough to attract "real" men. This fall back and binary thinking of what's feminine and what's masculine is a huge part of the problem. It's hard on men, too. But it's dangerous for women.
There are Facebook groups here in major cities in Canada and in the US with thousands and thousands of members dedicated to exposing toxic dating behaviour from men (stemming from online and apps). Not sure if they are in Australia yet? They post pictures and the scenario, which can be stalking, abuse and sexual assault, but also infidelity, lying, stand ups, etc. The women running them are fighting to keep them up, as sometimes men get wind they are there, and threaten legal action, etc.
Modern dating, the way straight men and women relate to each other, is sick (collapsing?) right now. I think the only answer is for the good men to do the work, to counteract what's going on in the manosphere right now. More men's groups (that don't focus on blaming women), etc. I know you've said it before Sarah, a version of the feminist movement for men.
💯 - dating, like all gender relations, can only be properly understood in the context of patriarchy and misogyny. I think the frank comments from men on this thread highlight this. I’m reminded of the famous quote from Marilyn Frye:
“To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.”
Wow. That quote devastates me. In part, because I see truth in it, another part because I hate it being true...and more. I do certainly feel men struggle to find a way to deal with admiration and respect they do feel for a woman. I witness it in the men who come close to me. There is always a caveat, a follow up feeling, a different shelf they have to put it on. Young men are OK with admiring and respecting me...BUT...put me on a shelf marked "older than me and therefore not a threat/I don't have to get close to it". And so on.
I have been pondering Fryes quote and in the absence of Marilyn I will ask you, if your up for it?
With the objectification of women within dating in mind. I think I see what she observed in men.
Stick with me as this will get a little metaphysical
Men / myself are objects and we work and live our lives in an exploration of this up until I think we become truly mature , ie Yang
We find the world and objects erotic, and deeply intoxicating , hence the drunken fumblings with nature and women. I once found myself aroused by the act of fixing a bicycle, it was not the bicycle, but the intense immersion and focus on the “thing”.
Losing myself in the care and repair of the object. Fascinated by the beauty of the form itself and the art that went into the bikes creation. This does not fully explain the nor excuse the objectification of women or men’s behaviour, but it may provide some insight. Or maybe I am just speaking rubbish 😅
The mirror opposite I feel / see is that women are of the world / spirit , ie Ying
Women find the rightness of things and harmony erotic? Hence a man in his place, and his integrity, working in harmony with himself and the world is good , the opposite is ick, or in its worse case, full blown, ball tearing rage 😂 and rightly so.
Her observations of the homo erotic nature of male behaviour is also correct , as I have seen and felt this in myself. We can and should fall in love with our brothers , as we should our sisters.
I have male friends whom I can hold their hand, and truly say that I love them. And I can feel erotic charge with men, though I do not find men sexually attractive, they give me the icks 😅.
And I think this is true for women also?
What is the opposite and balance of these things in women?
Once we reach a level of maturity where we are no longer fearful of our own sex, or ourselves and we no longer compete. Once we truly arrive at who we are. I believe that we will find more harmony with ourselves and each other.
I think this is part of the new understanding of ourselves which will come from this shit show we are currently in.
Then maybe we can begin to relate better.
I am sharing all of this maybe to try and find a way to explain male behaviour, and find examples that prove that our intents are not malicious.
And Marilyn is correct in her bird cage analogy , the bar upon bar of physical, mental and emotional controls on women. It makes me cry to think about the things that men, and women do to women in order to control them and get their money and attention.
The apps are another bar in this cage too
And as a man, I also feel trapped , and these bars are increasing for men now also. But I know it is not the same level, nor anything to compare to a woman’s experience in this life.
Thanks for your responses - I appreciate your commitment to grappling with these issues 😃 I’ve been reflecting and will come back with some more thoughts when I have a bit more time to sit down with it. Again, I do appreciate your commitment to moving things forward! A
This does not address or deal with the violence question
But does shed light on how a man is able to distance himself from a woman’s humanity
Or nature
The violence I feel is a mixture of immaturity , intoxicants, definitely societal positioning of women , and a masculine way of dealing with distress and overwhelm
I am super curious as to how domestic violence plays out in lesbian relationships
And back to the violence that I felt in Marilyn’s words
Though there are many men who get drunk off power and battering women, other men and nature
It is not our nature , I need to believe that
Men use fists as we cannot translate our immense emotions into words
Women use words as they cannot translate their immense emotions into a force strong enough to stop the onslaught of frustration , overwhelm and fear
All of them, words and fists tear our bodies and hearts to pieces
I’ve never been on the apps, tho did OLD for a while 10+ years ago, so I know the images you’re talking about! Now I’m wondering what my version of your final sentence would be…. “Points if you like raising animals, or gardening, or cats” (cue multiple pictures of very large cats 😂😂😂). But ofc I’d never write that because I’d take it for granted that men wouldn’t be interested in a woman’s niche hobbies…
Love it. How not to get matches :) To be fair, I also coach some younger men in online dating and tell them to avoid references to gaming and video games. But there is a lot more forgiveness the other way, that's for sure.
That is so disheartening that it's happening in your industry too. I would have assumed that paying for a matchmaking service would mean that you were serious about a relationship and you would make more of an effort!
I am not aware yet of the Facebook groups you mention here in Australia. I think the threat of legal action would prevent them here in Australia?
The threat of legal action is real here, too. I have mixed feelings about these groups. They are definitely helping to keep women safe and warning about really bad behaviour, but then sometimes men are posted that shouldn't be for pretty minor stuff. The fact that this type of thing is necessary though says a lot about the state of dating, and how women are feeling.
I was speaking generally about "dating experts" and online dating, which I do help a lot of my clients with. You're right, matchmaking can be better -- most who are paying for it will follow through and commit to the process. But the flakiness is still there (worse since Covid), and the chasm between men and women is always evident. There are also too many matchmakers and dating coaches that prescribe to what I was mentioning. Enforcing and benefiting off of those old harmful tropes. Like working with rich older men who want to date younger, "hot" women. Or valuing women based solely on appearance.
Can you tell I've become pretty disillusioned with what I do? :)
Yes I could sense the disillusionment in your comment and I figure that it would take a lot for you to feel that way. I assume that to go into your industry would have taken a lot of optimism and hope in the beginning and for that to fade makes me feel so disheartened.
I see so many references to a woman’s appearance in male profiles, I would never dream of putting something similar on mine.
I hear your misgivings with the groups, I find it concerning too that something that could be so beneficial is being misused by some.
The whole you have to be something other than yourself thing is destroying everybody’s mental health. And only magnifies the anxiety which is at the root of the problem.
Existential angst, attachment trauma and then the trauma from Tinder traps or that boy/girl in year 10 that tore your heart out, or god forbid sexual assault, stalking or coercive control.
I spent 15 years trying to be more of a man, stopped that and the marriage then ended abruptly.
Exactly as a date should if the other person does not like who you truly are. If you need to manufacture compatibility or interest, by being the compliant girl or the nice guy.
NOTHING is more erotic or attractive than a woman being themselves. If that is just being comfortable walking down the street , or if they are fully pissed off and willing to share exactly how they are feeling. Not projecting, or blaming, but letting you know exactly what’s up and what your behaviour just did to them.
I made some comments re apps on another thread here T , some ideas are an app with accountability built in, and learning , and I think it also needs a little bit of play. Like can we take the piss out of each other a little. Like an ick button , that can generate some conversation and reflection.
Could you get it off the ground? You have the experience. I called it Crystal.
It would take a huge faith in human nature to create it 😂 but the gains could be massive for everyone involved. Subscription based (no freebies , you need skin in the game). Could also create events like the old desperate and dateless ball here in QLD , along with more interactive and experienced based events.
Agreed. An app with a little bit of accountability built it would be great. There has been some that have tried it. There are soooo many of the them out there these days and they are failing. I feel like we have to go in another direction, and figure out a way to connect in real life again. I think that's where dating is going. Full circle.
That is what is happening here in Australia with running clubs , it is the new social outlet, and way to meet singles
Have toyed with the ideas of creating social playgrounds for adults , places which are not driven by alcohol , but by events and things to actually do together and interact without intoxicants.
Let the fun of the connection and play be the drug.
Yes! And I think we may be forced in that direction anyway, as we slide into collapse. We'll need each other again, and romantic (and other) connections will naturally grow out of community. I fantasize about it, actually. That aspect of things declining.
It is sad, but sometimes things need to hit rock bottom to shift. And men are getting there fast, or I actually think we have arrived there.
I can see a shift and positive change though, there was a woman on Q and A (Aussie talk show) the other night whose daughter had been killed by her partner.
The level of compassion that she has for men and the perpetrator was incredible to see. It was as if the level of love , grief and pain that she was experiencing, meant that she could not hold the pain of the anger too.
Nor did she want anyone else to feel this level of distress, let alone a dangerous man. Worth a look out of interest as it was quite a good discussion , can be found on abc.net.au
Her work now is to bring everyone to the table, and hold everyone accountable and find solutions.
But yes, people shine when things fall apart, and I think everyone is going to get humbled very quickly.
21?!?! That is truly appalling. How disheartening. For what it’s worth, if I was a straight, single male, I would never stand you up!
In 2004, I lived in NYC for 4 months (as a uni student) and noticed a massive difference between the dating culture there and the dating culture here (Melbourne). The basic difference was frequency - I went on HEAPS of dates over there but was a bit desperate and dateless back home. I talked about it incessantly with my friends when I got home and ending up writing an article about it that was published in The Australian weekend magazine.
My basic thesis was that Australians put too much pressure on dating, relative to NYCers. In NYC, dates really seemed to be Information Gathering Exercises (IGEs, as I called them) with the sole goal being to decide if you both wanted to spend another hour or two together. There was minimal pressure on any one date and you could relax a bit more because they were like buses - another one would be along soon enough. I think this meant everyone could navigate the risk of possible rejection and disappointment with more maturity and kindness because of the perceived abundant supply.
Back in Melbourne, it seemed like a date was *such* a big deal that no one would make the first move unless they had a strong degree of certainty that the answer and eventual long-term outcome (is s/he The One?!?!) would be positive and to their liking. My wish, at the time, was that Aussies could take the pressure off the idea of “dates” and just do it more frequently and more generously.
NYC taught me that a date was no big deal in the scheme of things. Though, if you say yes, you absolutely must treat them with courtesy and actually show up!!
So I suppose on that note, I’m curious about what other cultural differences have been observed by everyone when it comes to dating?!
And could the need for certainty about an outcome, well before it’s possible to determine, still be a factor in this mess?
As an aside, I did end up meeting and marrying a Frenchman in Melbourne (via rsvp, one of the OGs of dating apps) who had more of an IGE / abundant supply attitude to dating than the average Aussie male.
To the cultural differences...Yes, much to say here. I've dated in a range of countries and cultures and there is much to be said on this. It upsets me to say it - Australia is possibly the worst, for some interesting reasons. Something I could certainly write more about if people are interested.
My cousin moved back to London as Sydney date scene is SO BAD. She even got banned off Tinder for complaining to them about some nasty male, or some such outrage, not sure of details. She is now happily in love & living with a beautiful Polish/Italian guy in London.
Please do write more, but yes I agree Australia is the worst. It used to be men standing at the bar looking at you all night and not having the courage to come over to say hi. That behaviour has just moved online. Go to America, and men are not afraid to talk to you.
I love this! Do you think Australian culture is such where relationships (and for some, weddings etc) are put on a pedestal? I know people can yearn for intimate relationships but I feel like there is an obsession for some?
To some extent, yes. Was talking with a bunch of Australian creative women living in Paris last night (we had a meet-up in a little atelier with wine and chips). We talked about going back to Australia and being shocked by the intense focus on kids and mortgages and renovations etc. Conversations rarely veer into hobbies, politics etc . So we all are made to feel that to fit in, have a social life etc, you have to have a partner and kids etc. Australia is the only place where I've experienced being left out of social life because I'm single. Very different in Europe and even the UK. I meet British people who are very happy to invite me and other singles on holiday with them, for instance.
I have a partner (of almost 24 years) and three kids, but have always felt like an outlier in this culture because we've veered off-script in many ways (we're not married - I was born without the bride gene; we've never bought a house and have always found conversations about property ownership, mortgages and renovations intensely boring; we're not driven by money and material things; we've chosen to travel full-time and be location independent - fielding relentless questions about when we're going to "settle down" etc etc.) There are so many other countries and cultures where I've felt much more at home because people are far more interested in knowing about your interests and discussing politics, literature, art etc. When we backpacked around Asia as a family (through 12 different countries), I never once had anyone ask me "What do you do (for a living)?" or want to discuss the housing market! Instead, when people struck up conversations, they wanted to know where we were from and what our home country was like, and wanted to talk about the politics of their own country, or our inter-cultural relations etc. It was so refreshing, but made it very difficult to come back to a country where people can sit around for four hours discussing their bathroom renovation. I also have a few single friends who've mentioned the same issue about married couples excluding them from social events and this is another thing about Australian that I struggle to understand.
I can't stand the "so what do you do?" question! And it's often the first or second question asked when I'm messaging with a new match. Or when first meeting someone at a social event. I have found this is not gender specific. I'm more interested in "who are you? what are you passionate about?"
Thank you for this, Sarah! You have my complete attention :) My experience sounds very very similar to yours so the 'so, it's not just me then' was super comforting. I'm 49, and I've been single now for nearly 12 years. I find myself going on and off the apps in a vicious cycle of 'how else are you going to meet anyone' to 'Urgh, I hate this is how we now meet people'. The ghosting, the subtle trail off of conversations, the replies like 'awesome' with no follow up questions and my stubbornness to not want to be the one to keep things going. It's exhausting. Whats the answer? What's next? I'm 100% strapped in and ready to explore this with you. Xx
I wish we could send a memo to men "Let's strike a deal...you put some effort in and we'll reward you - we'll say thanks, we'll respond etc" . I feel it's "wrong" for women to do the constant chasing...for those evolutionary reasons I mention.
Oh Sarah. Who would stand YOU UP ?! My goodness! I’m a very happily married hetero woman but geez, if I got a date with you I’d be rapt! You’re so cool and interesting and kind and funny and smart.
The stories I hear from women friends of varying ages align perfectly with yours. And then when one of my friends started to see a man regularly (and this happened repeatedly with different men) they would be clingy then cagey then loving then cold…. It was a mind fuck.
I am fascinated by your theories, they always seem to hit the mark for me. And I am so saddened by the treatment you and other good women receive online.
I have a teenage son , I can see and feel the trouble for men in him. So I’m very invested in this conversation….
Keep going beautiful Sarah. I believe in love. And I reckon you do too!
Oh yes Chris I do understand this . 100%. And I am thankful that you have articulated it so well. I think this is what my friends needed the men she was seeing to tell her as well. Both parties feel vulnerable in the early stages of a relationship, that’s where the intimacy is. It’s such a shame that men feel the way you explain, and I fully get it. So we must do better for our young men. Teach them when they’re young (at high school it seems to get worse real quick) that expressing your feelings in a safe space is ok. It’s good. And being let down by a woman is not a failing. Girls and women are also scared to say no thanks sometimes because of possible consequences… it’s a mess! And it needs work from grass roots of society. (My son also reports that the girls get away with everything in the classroom while boys are constantly in trouble. And girls laugh at the boys for being in trouble. This is all wrong as well! Not holding girls responsible for their behaviour is not equality. Is not feminism. So the boys are not learning to trust women or the system) Thanks for your message. I appreciate the conversation and the opinion and knowledge. Best wishes
Great piece Sarah, I recognised the dynamic well from my own 10 years of being on and off the apps. In my 20s, and as a card-carrying (Gen X) feminist, I used to take the initiative to ask guys out (after there had been some mutual display of interest) and to a man they HATED it! I was told by one guy that he liked to be the hunter/pursuer and by asking him out I'd taken away his role in the dynamic - it left him no script, no moves. It comes back to the edgy place where the products of the feminist movement meet male ego - whilst I was attempting to rewrite the sexual dynamic, nobody had told the guys that it was time to play a different game. And tbh they didn't need to - most of my female peers did covert manipulation/organisation work to set up the seduction scenario (like the when and where of the actual date) whilst appearing to be totally passive. They were willing to do that and whilst I wasn't, I can see that women have historically needed to hide their agency/power for their own safety. So my interpretation of all the vagueness, avoidance, and flakiness (once I'd depersonalised) was that it's fecking impossible to do this dance with strangers online where the legwork needs to be more overt. I'd also agree that scrolling for love online is very late stage/predatory capitalist - we don't yet have a genuine equivalent of the village matchmaker, it's more like the village horsefair out there with everyone on a drunken rampage. It's a fine balance holding the possibility of love in your heart by working the apps against stepping away and having some trust in the flow of the Universe. Long story short: whilst I don't have the answers, I do totally recognise the scenarios! Good luck Sarah and thanks for sharing your journey - this writing certainly helped me to understand a painful strand of my dating history.
I like the subtle points you make re the covert power dynamics that have probably always been at play (there's that quote that women ask men to marry them...they just make them feel it was all their idea) but can't translate online. I am very similar to you - I have never been able to do said "covert" game.
Thanks for writing this Sarah. Great points to make. I’m going to make some off the top of my head comments about what you’ve written re personal. I guess what comes to mind is I am wondering what are you actually wanting from men. What are you actually looking for in a man? What does it look like?
TBH most of us older heterosexual feminist gals who have gotton into relationships later in life have perhaps decided to ‘settle’ after years of men dating bullshit or just be happily single. I have many friends living their best lives and they don’t even think about men.
Our generation has been fed alot of bullshit about romantic love and marriage. About how that should look.
At this later age life stage a relationship can be what you want it to be but you are probably not going to find a single available man who understands both feminism etc…and is at a similar age life stage. Especially not on a dating app. Any man who really gets it is already paired up and probably well trained by an awesome woman.
You say 1/2 your best friends are men. Are they not available to be in a relationship?? Or do they have friends that might be compatible.
A friend who was on the apps for ages gave up and asked all her friends to find her someone. While he is not the love of her life, he’s a fun, kind person who is open to learning. He wouldn’t have any idea what a ‘feminist’ even is.
For myself I can’t be arsed educating or training a man but I have enjoyed a long relationship with a man who I have never or have never lived with and enjoy the parts where we intersect together. I like that he has my back. We have even raised our child together.
I did a degree in women’s studies in the mid 1980’s so have been thinking about this stuff everyday since then. The more you evolve beyond patriarchy, the more personal freedom and power you gain you see that the rest of humanity will never catch up to you. It can be an isolating position to be in. Hence ….you probably need to compromise and settle for ‘good enough’ Or give up on men and find other love or be single.
21! Sar, I'm in shock. I can understand 1, maybe 2 ... but 21! What's wrong with these guys? What happened to old fashioned manners and politeness? It's crazy.
My heart breaks for you, Sar. And everyone else experiencing this. As you say, missing out on life and love!
I'm lost for words ... I best sign off. Big hugs, big love. x
Thank you. Yes, a less tenacious person would have given up at 2 or 3. But my hope drives me. It takes a massive toll, however. Mostly it leaves me despairing for ALL OF US. The phenomenon is sad.
Very good, very "un moany" article. I'm 71 and happily married and have been around the block enough to know that trying to find love is not how it works. Life itself has a huge say in this story and sometimes life is just not in agreement with some people finding and being in a loving, procreative relationship.
Life is also quite proactive on this level, as in, if you have 21 no shows to dates you have arranged, life itself maybe trying to tell you something about what it may want from or for you. You must have heard about going with the flow of the river instead of swimming upstream, 21 no shows is a mighty strong current you are swimming into.
My advice would be drop the apps and trust that if life is in agreement with you finding love, life will arrange it for you. A famous Indian mystic once said that we are all sitting on a train holding our luggage above our heads, just put it down and enjoy the ride.
I have chook story to tell (bizarre but true). I received 3 hens from my friend K. Her man partner was keen to tell me that the hens needed a rooster because he would find food for them, and protect them from predators. I observed and thought that they seem to find food for themselves, and that a rooster was no match for a fox. I also suspect a rooster is really focussed on protecting himself rather than them. A week later, I see a random chook in the driveway- I'm thinking "Oh my god, one of the hens has got out of the prison-quality hen protector". Until I see it's a rooster who desperately wants to get in and hang out with the hens. It turns out he had been abandoned by my neighbour and was lonely. One of the hens went out and joined him and coaxed him in. Hank is now a family with the 3 Graces (Tame, Jones, and Cossington-Smith) and he knows his place. For me it challenged the fundamental narrative that women need men and changed it to that men need women and need to find a place for themselves. I think I have always known it but there is a lot of effort put into convincing women that they are the ones in need. I think men are in crisis and I'm glad you are putting it out there.
The best chook story I've ever heard! Your Graces have grace.
It's not dissimilar to Ken's journey in Barbie, hey.
😊😊
Great story! I’ve got a chook called Gracie after Grace Tame too 😍 She is full of talk and says it like it is.
Love chooks Grace
Going to get some after some time in Europe later this year. They are such good company.
Found myself “triggered” by this one 😂
Ohh come on, we are important too 🙃😝
Let us fuss and find you some food and be tough 🙏🏼
But there is something to what you see
And makes me think about Sarah’s experiences of guys in her school , just being boys and having fun , raising hell in a good way and making people smile
In this debate about what guys are and should be , this touches on some fundamental truths for the “typical” man
I see us being lost without a proper cause , someone or something to rally around , assist , support and help. It is our natural instinct.
It is where we get stuck though, as there are a million “purposes and causes” out there, we do not know where to begin.
Plus there is an another fundamental truth about guys in play , without an action to take, we sit down and wait. And this leads to distraction and destruction from idle hands.
Though we are not living it
I see human beings at the core bring quite matriarchal , with women at the centre and men on the outside doing what needs to be done for the group
Relationship needs reframing into what it is supposed to be
Partnership for each individuals benefit , and the wholes wellbeing.
Navy Seals are effective as when they are on a mission, they do not focus on themselves, but on the safety of those around them.
If in down time the individual is developing themselves and looking after themselves, we are onto a winning situation.
And if we have a clear destination and shared goals , then damn, watch out 😎 good times are here 🙏🏼
Right now we have men and women utilising each other for vague, unspoken and often subconscious needs. Destroying each other to escape our anxiety.
We need some discussion around dating protocols, men need to ask women out directly, with clear intentions, we need better questions for ourselves and each other , and we need more radical honesty.
I am glad Hank came round to see what’s up, and that one of the Graces was brave enough to let the fox into the hen house 😝.
"Relationship needs reframing into what it is supposed to be."
Well said, Steve!
Great insights Steve
Oh Grace I am a chook lover and devotee of the fluffy bums & adore the 3 Graces story! Endless joy to watch the chookie behaviours. I have noticed that the 'roos always tell their girls that he is the boss and there to look after them. He announces food has been found and always eats last. However, how he behaves more generally, depends upon his breeding and manners (chooks can be such great metaphors).
Our current 'roo is dwarfed in size by our girls and though he is a bossy boots with all of the flock and excludes the ones he doesn't like so they look so sad, he seems generally pretty gentle.
Our last RooPaul was a glorious looking but total biatch & bully of a rooster and my darling husband would get very distraught (close to tears) at his agressive sexual predations. He wondered aloud whether this was what women put up with. Sigh. Yes many of us do. I tried everything including making a separate house for RooPaul and put him in the sin-bin for time outs. It was funny until it really wasn't anymore. He had to go!
Eventually we were rescued by the farmer who only keeps roos. I didn't ask too closely as to the reason why only roos as we got so desperate to rehouse RooPaul. Apparently when you have a flock of 'roos they stop behaving like 'roos and settle down. I couldn't eat him cos of too much attachment. Maybe the farmer eats them. Who knows? I wonder about their relationships in the all roo flock now but I dare not visit. Is it like jail for bad boys? Or do they form a fraternity and write ballads to the girls they left behind?
You made me snort my tea! Best chook names ever!
😅😝
Haha I love this! I have 3 chooks and a rooster, and the rooster is such a wuss!! The chickens are a lot more bossy and brave. Such a good insight, like you its something I feel like I've know but never really thought too much about/had it put into words like this.
Wow, what a story indeed. I'm sorry to hear your experiences with those particular men. Thanks for sharing, Grace!
Absolutely love this.
Thanks for sharing Sarah, at no point did your post feel like moaning. :)
I'm a guy in my mid-30s who has never been on any apps. I hate photos of myself and don't have any, so that prerequisite has barred me from the online dating avenue. I've always regretted this to an extent, as I'm sure that I've missed opportunities because of it, but based on your experiences, it sounds like I've also avoided some anguish.
I would love a relationship with a strong, independent woman with a broad range of interests and experiences. Unfortunately, the women like this who float into my life are always already in a relationship!
Maybe I just need to bite the bullet, take a photo of myself and wade into the murkiness of the apps. I'll at least be one of the men who are happy to set the time/place and be there when I say I will. I see time-wasting as one of the biggest sins, so I would never do that to somebody else.
Please keep these discussions going Sarah, I love how raw you've been with your posts lately!
Bradley, yes, the single women of the world need you to take that photo! Run the experiment. And even use the wording you've used here...radical honesty will cut through to the kind of woman you seem to be seeking.
Go Brad ✌🏼👌🏼🙏🏼
Thanks Sarah!
What apps do people think have the most people looking to make genuine connections?
And take your time, do not idly swipe away, sit and look for what you are looking for. Follow threads which lead to calm and a feeling of depth, walk away from jitters and sparks.
Relationship is stillness , drama is jitters
At least that’s my experience and two cents worth 😅
Trust yourself and have fun ✌🏼
Relationship is stillness 👏🏼❤️
Hi Bradley. “Radical honesty” as Sarah has mentioned, will have many women lining up. There are single women craving your kind. Please get on line, you sound so refreshing. I know many young women that would fit your type. Try Bumble, its a good one.
Thanks for the encouragement Michelle! I haven't been lucky enough to stumble on one myself, but hopefully, Bumble will widen the net. :)
maybe look at it as data collecting initially - less pressure
Tinder is for hook ups
Hinge and Bumble seem to be filled with more serious women
Bumble for those looking for baby daddies
Hinge for confused in betweens
Be direct and honest
And check yourself before you wreak yourself
You will find exactly what you want if you ask for it , just be sure that you know what that is
Otherwise you will get just what you need to find it
Thanks for the male perspective on the apps, Steve! I've had my fun and am ready to settle now, so it looks like Bumble will be my go-to. :)
I have thoughts on the apps....I think Bumble sets things up wrong. Responsibility planted on women to make first move - which I think gives men a get out card. But I think most ppl are on at least one... so you might meet them either way!
True , but the guy needs to also match still , and there is some protective barrier there, but yes it still messes with a natural flow.
One suggestion Brad is to hit Hinge and really answer the profile questions on there. And ask good questions yourself. The bumble girls are also most likely on Hinge as everyone seems to hedge their bets.
There is also an app called Paired , which I have been unable to use yet. But has good intentions. It is designed to assist communication and exploration between couples. Any one used it?
My wish (and a little market research here) is for an app which acknowledges male (and to some extent female) behaviour and encourages transparency and communication.
Make it super clear , I want sex or I want love and a relationship. Yes or no. No shame. Yes or no, let me know.
As well as some method of indication of behaviour and self reflection. Both for the reviewer and for the reviewed. Uber ratings but for dating. This will clear out those with low integrity immediately.
Indications of the number of interactions and actual dates. A way to track yourself and each other. Your own avoidance , and your own anxiety driven appetite for attention.
And mini lessons on relationships, dating, simple psychology. Think an A.I. Ester helping you out along the way. Along with random prompt questions for each party involved to spice things up and keep it fresh.
Maybe call it Crystal
Thoughts?
It is the better platform , safer for women and attracts people with more integrity and self respect
Good luck finding that lucky lady ✌🏼
Lots of getting what I need and not what I want
😅
Hi Bradley! Bite the bullet, get a mate to take some photos of you & go for it. I met my wonderful, interesting, respectful, funny & quirky husband on Bumble 4 years ago at 36 years old. While I’d been on the apps for a looong time, he had just joined. After some lengthy messaging, he sent a photo of a hand written post-it-note with some date options I could choose from... I share this story with you to encourage you to wade in. There’s plenty of strong, independent and fascinating single women out there. You might just meet someone great. 😌
The hand-written note is what worked....yes!
Thanks for sharing your story, Claire; as someone who loves doing handwritten notes (and custom poems), I'll keep that in mind!
Pleasssssse right a love letter
Bring this back 👌🏼
I am trying but my friends and many women think it is weird
It’s not, it takes time, and let’s you communicate clearly , and feel into what is true or not
Plus it is scary as fuck , a text is easy
A pen, and a delivery is heavy as hell
It’s rock and roll 🤘🏼
We know there are nice men in our midst but so hard to find!
I'd love to know how men feel when they hear/read about the level of disappointment we feel.
I assumed it wasn't pretty, but not quite to the extent you explained it. It's probably even worse for the women in the 18-25 range as well, as I know a few men at that age who are influenced by the Andrew Tates of the world and essentially just say what they think women want to hear just to sleep with them and move on. I've tried my best to explain to them why their actions are destructive, but they seem to think it's funny to ghost after they've gotten what they wanted.
Hi Bradley,
As a women in her late 20's I can confirm it is just as bad if not worse. Its not only disappointing, but sometimes I grieve because we feel like we are "men-bashing" but in reality we love the men in our lives and we want that connection, but it seems like it's at the cost of our own emotional sanity.
I feel the same Pip...we want the men to rise, but nothing seems to work
That is sad to hear Pip. If asking for baseline courtesy is men-bashing then society is in trouble!
Yes but I hope as more men and women talk to each other about these things the better chances we have at realising and try to solve these problems. I refuse to give up on finding love because of how the current dating world is going. Communication and patience is key! 😁 it also helps when you realise you aren’t alone in your struggles
Thank you for sharing Sarah! I was hoping at some stage you would! I can concur with many of the things you have said. I find that many men (in Australia and perhaps the West) are already jaded when on the apps. They expect (or feel entitled) to meet a woman who in their opinion ‘has it all’ and primarily this means 70% meeting their requirements physically and aesthetically. They put such emphasis on this that it crowds out the other values women bring to the table. If they pursue women who don’t meet their expectations or what they feel they are entitled to they treat those women very poorly. Goodness knows how you will be treated by men if you are overweight in Australia! Also I find few people in Australia (particularly men) who want to engage in conversation beyond the superficial pop and sporting culture that exists (theology, philosophy, books, art, history, travel anyone?) I personally have zero interest in men. It doesn’t feel like a sacrifice or I’m missing out. I have a rich spiritual life that I guess helps. I feel lonely at times but that’s because I have struggled to find likeminded souls or a tribe in Australia (because…well..Australia) and that is despite 3 years of trying in well meaning, diverse ways. I lean into the family and friends I have who understand me. Those who are following along know I am heading eventually back OS (unlikely to be in the West) but still getting ducks in a row. I’m going all in, in life and am proceeding on the basis that it will just be me! And I guess I have accepted that and at peace with it because looking back at the last 42 years of my life I have enough evidence of who I am (and who men are in this generation) that I am unlikely to meet a man that makes life better or my world bigger. Somehow I always have to get smaller. If someone comes along well ok, but I do not expect it.
Amy, this reflects where a lot of women are getting to - finding intimate fulfilment elsewhere. Which men are picking up on. They are starting to feel left behind by this, I believe.
I’m a 100% with you,
OH MY GOODNESS. I'm only half way through and nodding my head off.
Our little community of Forbes has been rocked by the death of a beautiful young lady, Molly Ticehurst, two days ago. We are reeling. All the women. I cannot fully explain the impacts but it is palpable... in the shops, in our texts, in our conversations. It's like a big old "See. I told you men are not to be trusted." Hard going. And I'm explaining all of this to my 8 year old son.
It's a lot.
Love Cherie
We really really need men to show up to this discussion.
I engaged my dear husband on your post tonight as I was really interested in his POV. We’ve 7 marriages between us.. (this is definitely the last 🤞🥰🙄) so we really have been out in the internet dating world like you although not for the last 8 yrs of being together.
From my earliest forays in about 2003 to the last ones in 2015 there was an enormous difference in behaviors from men.
Anyway Mr Joy was so appalled & furious hearing your story that men are behaving so badly and he was actually getting quite riled up by what he said is just shocking manners. He has no time for indecisive people and is all about the follow through in life. But then he’s a deal maker by profession so that makes sense. He took one look at your picture and was gobsmacked.
I think we’ll have more deep conversations on this over the next few days.
The idea that your experience is fundamentally about poor social graces makes me think that actually it’s more grounded in the depersonalization of our connections online now. It’s normal to read people trash talking others or trolling for example. There’s not the same care of others and particularly strangers. Phone calls are unusual even for good friends. We are all desperate for connection and yet we are not actually connecting. We are not really listening properly to each other. Obviously the blokes are not enjoying themselves either or they would be out on loads of dates but they are also complaining about a lack of fulfillment & loneliness. This bad behavior that you have copped Sarah seems to me to be symptomatic of a wider trend.
I think Esther Perel has been talking about the new AI - Artificial Intimacy with Brené Brown recently at SCSW & there’s so much juice in that conversation for this thread here.
Obviously the standout of Substack is that it’s so old school. So polite. Everyone is still listening deeply and communicating beautifully. People are connecting magnificently here. It’s so rare a place these days that it seems to me that it’s a phenomenon to pay attention to.
Once upon another lifetime I was a category designer and so this point I offer is for the techies to pay close attention: There’s some fundamental problems that need solving here. Therefore an opportunity to create a new platform that centers connection, deep listening to ALL genders about what they really want so that the connections actually happen IRL!
People are very wounded, grieving, frightened, and or angry and frustrated with their lives and the world right now. Not a great vibe for dating strangers perhaps?
There must be a lot of things that could be designed into the platforms to calmly apply a gentle balm and change the vibe and the behaviors and outcomes for all of the users.
Maybe a wild idea but it’s such a great conversation that you have started here. Thanks.
All your points are true. And thank you to your husband for his concern and care and outrage.
I think we ALL know where the problems lie ...but we're stuck in this system. So far in now, we can't back out. Moloch does its thing here, too.
I'm personally trying out a few things to break the circuit....I'm turning of social media except for twice a week. And am looking to come off all dating apps (except for now it's a good way to meet new people in a new city).
The artificial intimacy is rife , I or anyone can create an erotic encounter via text messages only, that is a terrifying reality. Very dangerous physically, energetically, and emotionally.
I slip up , but have committed to asking people face to face, and making phone calls to my friends and family
It is dumbfounding to feel the fear and avoidance within myself , even towards family and my best friends
I (we) are bound up so tight, so afraid
Good work you two ✌🏼
I feel as if a conversation about reclaiming ‘play’ would be helpful here too. The early days of meeting new people, the lightness, the dance moves of getting to know others. Omg just the (very French) joy of flirting without any follow through required.
It’s as if we are all so armored up and transactional that we’ve lost sight of the joys of curiosity and discovering the new.
I love this! It just feels so heavy at the moment in the online world. To interact with men (and just people in general) without the pressure and just enjoying each other's company and letting things evolve organically, if they do even at all evolve.
And a question to both of you lovely ladies
To just play and be and flirt when that type of erotic or open hearted moment appears is just me
Is this a woman’s experience also
A humans natural state?
I know it is more of a risk for women , and now more than ever , but is it you too?
It's not about eroticism for me, more just enjoying someone's company and lightly flirting if the attraction is there. And that risk is always present, so caution comes into to it too.
It’s not a game or a technique , it is just nature acknowledging nature, and a heart acknowledging a heart
Yes you know the answer Steve except for women everywhere we have to be safe so it’s tricky for us. Sarah mentioned that she remembered the boys from her teens who were all fun to be around. I had the same with my gang of guys from high school who are all still friends even though now we’re in our sixties. I could flirt with all of them and I always felt safe. It was playful and yes sure sex happened on and off, but it wasn’t the main reason why we all hung out. In my gang though they respected us girls even though it was the days of Puberty Blues. Other boys didn’t respect us. I lived in many different parts of the world and I have never been a part of such a group anywhere else. So lucky.
Yes!! 100 %
Let’s play!
This has come into my world a few times and I was about to say the same thing
One gem on here has been talking about dating styles in NY. It’s just a date, this is me, who are you, wow, isn’t this awkward and fun, and scary.
I have been working on the armour, and notice it’s gleam, or rusty stain pretty quickly now
Looking ladies in the eye, feeling my fear or connection, flirting for fun, when it naturally arises, and staying on my course and in my lane.
Makes life such a joy ✌🏼
I loved that example from New York too Steve. Sounds like so much fun without the heaviness and pressure.
Cherie Molly's story is just so awful, it's been on my mind. My thoughts are with the Forbes community and what you all must be going through.
Dear Cherie,
Sending huge hugs & love to you all in Forbes
xos
Thanks Sarah. Molly's funeral is a community gathering at the local football oval - it's where we can all come together - on Thursday. It's thankfully a chance to mourn together. Lots of love to you as well.
I’m so sorry that I missed your text above on my first read through Cherie. I hope you’re doing ok after this week past. No words can make it better. The whole country is obviously reeling. Sending gentle thoughts your way.
Thank you for making me not feel like I am alone in this. I have been single for most of my adult life. I have tried the apps, I’ve tried exploring new activities in the hopes of meeting new people, I have tried not trying as they say (“it will happen when you least expect it”). All I seem to face is rejection in various forms. And I have been beaten down like many have by dating. I believe I have a lot to offer a potential partner even if I’m not the most attractive girl in a group. I am intelligent, financially stable, have a successful career and am more than capable of looking after myself. I sometimes wonder if it’s that independence, that lack of a need to be “saved by a man”, someone who is opinionated and will express it that perhaps is perceived as unattractive. But if that is it or men are threatened, then I’ll take my single life.
Yes, I think some of this has to do with being a woman who does not "need" a man. And so we need a conversation that shows some of us still "want" a male partner in our lives...and isn't that more legitimate, more secure?
Absolutely.
I suspect that the new normal is a difficult one to navigate for guys who need to be delivering something or being someone. If we are not playing a role then who are we? Creates a lot of insecurity, and a lack of sense of control.
If we cannot manipulate or control a woman or life through money, our services or our bodies then how do we deal with our own anxieties and fears? Who are we, how do I contribute, how do I deal with my physical desires? And hearts needs? Lots of learning and new ways to be found
I think you’re naming the elephant in the room and inviting accountability. Totally agree that men have not been modelled how to exist in a mutually respectful partnership, and are more prone to avoiding feelings… it’s easier to colonise the moon rather than feel your feelings apparently.
I’m in a 12 year relationship with a man, that’s taken work but because he’s willing to go there, we have a truly intimate and respectful relationship. Our psychotherapist (a wise, experienced woman in her 60’s who’s worked in the game for decades) said the other week that he was ‘the 1% of the 1% of the %’
He’s an Aussie bloke, grew up on a farm and his parents had typical gender roles of the 70’s… BUT he was well nurtured, and he’s loyal, accountable and open to learning/ growing. I do think most relationships are the long game and take work.. you’ve just got to find someone who’s willing to do the work with you. There’s gotta be one out there… tricky to find if you can’t even get to the friken first date though.
Keep up the conversation.. it’s an important one.
A hug to your 0.00001 per cent-er!
In our house we have been discussing that there appears to be an increasingly-angry (violently angry) belief that the success of women is the reason that some men are flailing. I *always* think of these Augie March lyrics:
Now I know you like your boys to take their medicine
From the bowl with a silver spoon
Who run away with the dish and scale the fish
By the silvery light of the moon
Who were taught from the womb to believe to the tune
In as far as their bleeding eyes see
It's a pleasure pen, meant for them, built for and rent for them
Not for the likes of me
Not for the like of you and me
Angie March was the second band I interviewed. I went to their home town in Victoria (Daylesford?) and we walked around talking poetry. I think I was 25.
I think it’s because men are starting to realise we don’t really need them anymore. And the angrier they are, the more we distance ourselves from each other. I’ve been in Sydney almost five years and am yet to have a relationship. It’s a desert. And I’ve always been fine everywhere else.
I (quietly) ask the same question. And also figure that trends such as this do tend to start in decadent places (just like collapse)...and there is hardly a more decadent city in the world than Sydney
There is something happening here
It’s the same it’s the Jews, it’s the immigrants, it’s the women mentality
All utilised by men, and increasingly by women (trad wives / outrage authors) to make money or gain attention and power
I love Augie March. Such an underrated Australian band.
It's also interesting how avoidant people have become in bars / clubs. I'm mostly single and fully sober so I people watch a lot and where groups used to mix in a bar as the night progressed, it seems now, every group is it's own entity and there's an unwillinginess to look up and out at the possibilities right in front of them. How did we get here? Fear? Or the fun phenomenon of huge ego/low self esteem?
Sucks to have so many no shows, Sarah. What's that quote Brene brown references... "Courage starts with showing up and letting ourselves be seen."
Nobody puts baby in the corner 😯😂
Yup. Showing up to life!!
I've been trying to find an article I read recently about how our entire culture has become avoidantly attached...still looking for it!
I love attachment theory and believe it really is quite valuable to understand but I’m starting to get weary (and bored!) about how it gets used for everything! I do agree there is this avoidant, lazy approach to dating and connection going on but I don’t necessarily think it’s attachment at play in that way… Esther Perel talks about how we used to meet people through friends, and while out with friends and you see who people really are in these contexts and I think that’s a part of it all, apps and dating now feels very isolated. The most fun “dates” I’ve had are with men when they weren’t planned dates, I notice I’m less in my head and just enjoy their company. Which is what it’s meant to be about!
As I mentioned in the previous Moloch post, I really think attachment trauma issues are the basis for many of the world's problems, including it seems, dating.
Yes to both of your points of view, there is a lack of social skills and also our pain points are being squeezed. So any anxiety driven attachment styles are at full bloom
Yes why is it people don't talk to each other in bars anymore, more interested in checking out the apps when a real person is standing right in front of them!
Yep - its that or people only get the courage to walk up and talk to someone if they are drunk, using alcohol as a crutch for being able to communicate....
😂😂😂
My friends tried to pair me up with a woman , she was to busy throwing back drinks, complaining about men, and checking tinder all night to notice that I was standing right in front of her
Sarah, your observations and how you frame it says it all. And the stories and comments that I am reading here, as well. There are a couple of great guys here weighing in on their perspectives, but that is painfully lacking everywhere else. And the dating industry for straight folks is rampant with really bad advice that props this up from so called dating experts (men and women). It goes like this... women have to be in their feminine (implying soft, submissive) to attract the masculine (implying assertive, dominant). These old tropes are more prevalent right now I find as men fall farther behind and struggle. It's the women that have to change. Women aren't "feminine" enough to attract "real" men. This fall back and binary thinking of what's feminine and what's masculine is a huge part of the problem. It's hard on men, too. But it's dangerous for women.
There are Facebook groups here in major cities in Canada and in the US with thousands and thousands of members dedicated to exposing toxic dating behaviour from men (stemming from online and apps). Not sure if they are in Australia yet? They post pictures and the scenario, which can be stalking, abuse and sexual assault, but also infidelity, lying, stand ups, etc. The women running them are fighting to keep them up, as sometimes men get wind they are there, and threaten legal action, etc.
Modern dating, the way straight men and women relate to each other, is sick (collapsing?) right now. I think the only answer is for the good men to do the work, to counteract what's going on in the manosphere right now. More men's groups (that don't focus on blaming women), etc. I know you've said it before Sarah, a version of the feminist movement for men.
💯 - dating, like all gender relations, can only be properly understood in the context of patriarchy and misogyny. I think the frank comments from men on this thread highlight this. I’m reminded of the famous quote from Marilyn Frye:
“To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.”
Wow. That quote devastates me. In part, because I see truth in it, another part because I hate it being true...and more. I do certainly feel men struggle to find a way to deal with admiration and respect they do feel for a woman. I witness it in the men who come close to me. There is always a caveat, a follow up feeling, a different shelf they have to put it on. Young men are OK with admiring and respecting me...BUT...put me on a shelf marked "older than me and therefore not a threat/I don't have to get close to it". And so on.
Hey Alicia,
I have been pondering Fryes quote and in the absence of Marilyn I will ask you, if your up for it?
With the objectification of women within dating in mind. I think I see what she observed in men.
Stick with me as this will get a little metaphysical
Men / myself are objects and we work and live our lives in an exploration of this up until I think we become truly mature , ie Yang
We find the world and objects erotic, and deeply intoxicating , hence the drunken fumblings with nature and women. I once found myself aroused by the act of fixing a bicycle, it was not the bicycle, but the intense immersion and focus on the “thing”.
Losing myself in the care and repair of the object. Fascinated by the beauty of the form itself and the art that went into the bikes creation. This does not fully explain the nor excuse the objectification of women or men’s behaviour, but it may provide some insight. Or maybe I am just speaking rubbish 😅
The mirror opposite I feel / see is that women are of the world / spirit , ie Ying
Women find the rightness of things and harmony erotic? Hence a man in his place, and his integrity, working in harmony with himself and the world is good , the opposite is ick, or in its worse case, full blown, ball tearing rage 😂 and rightly so.
Her observations of the homo erotic nature of male behaviour is also correct , as I have seen and felt this in myself. We can and should fall in love with our brothers , as we should our sisters.
I have male friends whom I can hold their hand, and truly say that I love them. And I can feel erotic charge with men, though I do not find men sexually attractive, they give me the icks 😅.
And I think this is true for women also?
What is the opposite and balance of these things in women?
Once we reach a level of maturity where we are no longer fearful of our own sex, or ourselves and we no longer compete. Once we truly arrive at who we are. I believe that we will find more harmony with ourselves and each other.
I think this is part of the new understanding of ourselves which will come from this shit show we are currently in.
Then maybe we can begin to relate better.
I am sharing all of this maybe to try and find a way to explain male behaviour, and find examples that prove that our intents are not malicious.
And Marilyn is correct in her bird cage analogy , the bar upon bar of physical, mental and emotional controls on women. It makes me cry to think about the things that men, and women do to women in order to control them and get their money and attention.
The apps are another bar in this cage too
And as a man, I also feel trapped , and these bars are increasing for men now also. But I know it is not the same level, nor anything to compare to a woman’s experience in this life.
Hope some of this makes sense 😂
Hi Steve
Thanks for your responses - I appreciate your commitment to grappling with these issues 😃 I’ve been reflecting and will come back with some more thoughts when I have a bit more time to sit down with it. Again, I do appreciate your commitment to moving things forward! A
✌🏼
This does not address or deal with the violence question
But does shed light on how a man is able to distance himself from a woman’s humanity
Or nature
The violence I feel is a mixture of immaturity , intoxicants, definitely societal positioning of women , and a masculine way of dealing with distress and overwhelm
I am super curious as to how domestic violence plays out in lesbian relationships
And back to the violence that I felt in Marilyn’s words
Though there are many men who get drunk off power and battering women, other men and nature
It is not our nature , I need to believe that
Men use fists as we cannot translate our immense emotions into words
Women use words as they cannot translate their immense emotions into a force strong enough to stop the onslaught of frustration , overwhelm and fear
All of them, words and fists tear our bodies and hearts to pieces
Men need to learn to handle ourselves better 🙏🏼
Like this quote, too. So much truth to it!
I’ve never been on the apps, tho did OLD for a while 10+ years ago, so I know the images you’re talking about! Now I’m wondering what my version of your final sentence would be…. “Points if you like raising animals, or gardening, or cats” (cue multiple pictures of very large cats 😂😂😂). But ofc I’d never write that because I’d take it for granted that men wouldn’t be interested in a woman’s niche hobbies…
What's the "points" comment?
Love it. How not to get matches :) To be fair, I also coach some younger men in online dating and tell them to avoid references to gaming and video games. But there is a lot more forgiveness the other way, that's for sure.
That is so disheartening that it's happening in your industry too. I would have assumed that paying for a matchmaking service would mean that you were serious about a relationship and you would make more of an effort!
I am not aware yet of the Facebook groups you mention here in Australia. I think the threat of legal action would prevent them here in Australia?
The threat of legal action is real here, too. I have mixed feelings about these groups. They are definitely helping to keep women safe and warning about really bad behaviour, but then sometimes men are posted that shouldn't be for pretty minor stuff. The fact that this type of thing is necessary though says a lot about the state of dating, and how women are feeling.
I was speaking generally about "dating experts" and online dating, which I do help a lot of my clients with. You're right, matchmaking can be better -- most who are paying for it will follow through and commit to the process. But the flakiness is still there (worse since Covid), and the chasm between men and women is always evident. There are also too many matchmakers and dating coaches that prescribe to what I was mentioning. Enforcing and benefiting off of those old harmful tropes. Like working with rich older men who want to date younger, "hot" women. Or valuing women based solely on appearance.
Can you tell I've become pretty disillusioned with what I do? :)
Yes I could sense the disillusionment in your comment and I figure that it would take a lot for you to feel that way. I assume that to go into your industry would have taken a lot of optimism and hope in the beginning and for that to fade makes me feel so disheartened.
I see so many references to a woman’s appearance in male profiles, I would never dream of putting something similar on mine.
I hear your misgivings with the groups, I find it concerning too that something that could be so beneficial is being misused by some.
I agree
The whole you have to be something other than yourself thing is destroying everybody’s mental health. And only magnifies the anxiety which is at the root of the problem.
Existential angst, attachment trauma and then the trauma from Tinder traps or that boy/girl in year 10 that tore your heart out, or god forbid sexual assault, stalking or coercive control.
I spent 15 years trying to be more of a man, stopped that and the marriage then ended abruptly.
Exactly as a date should if the other person does not like who you truly are. If you need to manufacture compatibility or interest, by being the compliant girl or the nice guy.
NOTHING is more erotic or attractive than a woman being themselves. If that is just being comfortable walking down the street , or if they are fully pissed off and willing to share exactly how they are feeling. Not projecting, or blaming, but letting you know exactly what’s up and what your behaviour just did to them.
I made some comments re apps on another thread here T , some ideas are an app with accountability built in, and learning , and I think it also needs a little bit of play. Like can we take the piss out of each other a little. Like an ick button , that can generate some conversation and reflection.
Could you get it off the ground? You have the experience. I called it Crystal.
It would take a huge faith in human nature to create it 😂 but the gains could be massive for everyone involved. Subscription based (no freebies , you need skin in the game). Could also create events like the old desperate and dateless ball here in QLD , along with more interactive and experienced based events.
Agreed. An app with a little bit of accountability built it would be great. There has been some that have tried it. There are soooo many of the them out there these days and they are failing. I feel like we have to go in another direction, and figure out a way to connect in real life again. I think that's where dating is going. Full circle.
It does seem like they have run their course
That is what is happening here in Australia with running clubs , it is the new social outlet, and way to meet singles
Have toyed with the ideas of creating social playgrounds for adults , places which are not driven by alcohol , but by events and things to actually do together and interact without intoxicants.
Let the fun of the connection and play be the drug.
Yes! And I think we may be forced in that direction anyway, as we slide into collapse. We'll need each other again, and romantic (and other) connections will naturally grow out of community. I fantasize about it, actually. That aspect of things declining.
It is sad, but sometimes things need to hit rock bottom to shift. And men are getting there fast, or I actually think we have arrived there.
I can see a shift and positive change though, there was a woman on Q and A (Aussie talk show) the other night whose daughter had been killed by her partner.
The level of compassion that she has for men and the perpetrator was incredible to see. It was as if the level of love , grief and pain that she was experiencing, meant that she could not hold the pain of the anger too.
Nor did she want anyone else to feel this level of distress, let alone a dangerous man. Worth a look out of interest as it was quite a good discussion , can be found on abc.net.au
Her work now is to bring everyone to the table, and hold everyone accountable and find solutions.
But yes, people shine when things fall apart, and I think everyone is going to get humbled very quickly.
21?!?! That is truly appalling. How disheartening. For what it’s worth, if I was a straight, single male, I would never stand you up!
In 2004, I lived in NYC for 4 months (as a uni student) and noticed a massive difference between the dating culture there and the dating culture here (Melbourne). The basic difference was frequency - I went on HEAPS of dates over there but was a bit desperate and dateless back home. I talked about it incessantly with my friends when I got home and ending up writing an article about it that was published in The Australian weekend magazine.
My basic thesis was that Australians put too much pressure on dating, relative to NYCers. In NYC, dates really seemed to be Information Gathering Exercises (IGEs, as I called them) with the sole goal being to decide if you both wanted to spend another hour or two together. There was minimal pressure on any one date and you could relax a bit more because they were like buses - another one would be along soon enough. I think this meant everyone could navigate the risk of possible rejection and disappointment with more maturity and kindness because of the perceived abundant supply.
Back in Melbourne, it seemed like a date was *such* a big deal that no one would make the first move unless they had a strong degree of certainty that the answer and eventual long-term outcome (is s/he The One?!?!) would be positive and to their liking. My wish, at the time, was that Aussies could take the pressure off the idea of “dates” and just do it more frequently and more generously.
NYC taught me that a date was no big deal in the scheme of things. Though, if you say yes, you absolutely must treat them with courtesy and actually show up!!
So I suppose on that note, I’m curious about what other cultural differences have been observed by everyone when it comes to dating?!
And could the need for certainty about an outcome, well before it’s possible to determine, still be a factor in this mess?
As an aside, I did end up meeting and marrying a Frenchman in Melbourne (via rsvp, one of the OGs of dating apps) who had more of an IGE / abundant supply attitude to dating than the average Aussie male.
Do you want to post a link to that article Sarah?
To the cultural differences...Yes, much to say here. I've dated in a range of countries and cultures and there is much to be said on this. It upsets me to say it - Australia is possibly the worst, for some interesting reasons. Something I could certainly write more about if people are interested.
I’ve lived in Hong Kong, London, Melbourne and Sydney and Sydney has definitely been the worst. I’m hoping I might become bi tbh.
My cousin moved back to London as Sydney date scene is SO BAD. She even got banned off Tinder for complaining to them about some nasty male, or some such outrage, not sure of details. She is now happily in love & living with a beautiful Polish/Italian guy in London.
I’m going to France for a holiday in June, maybe I’ll stay lol
At the very least, observe...
Please do write more, but yes I agree Australia is the worst. It used to be men standing at the bar looking at you all night and not having the courage to come over to say hi. That behaviour has just moved online. Go to America, and men are not afraid to talk to you.
Why so different in the States do you think?
I would love you to write about the cultural differences you've noticed Sarah. I have recently just given up all together after many years of trying.
yes please
I love this! Do you think Australian culture is such where relationships (and for some, weddings etc) are put on a pedestal? I know people can yearn for intimate relationships but I feel like there is an obsession for some?
To some extent, yes. Was talking with a bunch of Australian creative women living in Paris last night (we had a meet-up in a little atelier with wine and chips). We talked about going back to Australia and being shocked by the intense focus on kids and mortgages and renovations etc. Conversations rarely veer into hobbies, politics etc . So we all are made to feel that to fit in, have a social life etc, you have to have a partner and kids etc. Australia is the only place where I've experienced being left out of social life because I'm single. Very different in Europe and even the UK. I meet British people who are very happy to invite me and other singles on holiday with them, for instance.
I have a partner (of almost 24 years) and three kids, but have always felt like an outlier in this culture because we've veered off-script in many ways (we're not married - I was born without the bride gene; we've never bought a house and have always found conversations about property ownership, mortgages and renovations intensely boring; we're not driven by money and material things; we've chosen to travel full-time and be location independent - fielding relentless questions about when we're going to "settle down" etc etc.) There are so many other countries and cultures where I've felt much more at home because people are far more interested in knowing about your interests and discussing politics, literature, art etc. When we backpacked around Asia as a family (through 12 different countries), I never once had anyone ask me "What do you do (for a living)?" or want to discuss the housing market! Instead, when people struck up conversations, they wanted to know where we were from and what our home country was like, and wanted to talk about the politics of their own country, or our inter-cultural relations etc. It was so refreshing, but made it very difficult to come back to a country where people can sit around for four hours discussing their bathroom renovation. I also have a few single friends who've mentioned the same issue about married couples excluding them from social events and this is another thing about Australian that I struggle to understand.
I can't stand the "so what do you do?" question! And it's often the first or second question asked when I'm messaging with a new match. Or when first meeting someone at a social event. I have found this is not gender specific. I'm more interested in "who are you? what are you passionate about?"
Thank God Sarah. I thought I was going mad.
True that
Sounds like a great intention to bring to the dating experience
And intention dictates the outcome
At least from my own experience
Thank you for this, Sarah! You have my complete attention :) My experience sounds very very similar to yours so the 'so, it's not just me then' was super comforting. I'm 49, and I've been single now for nearly 12 years. I find myself going on and off the apps in a vicious cycle of 'how else are you going to meet anyone' to 'Urgh, I hate this is how we now meet people'. The ghosting, the subtle trail off of conversations, the replies like 'awesome' with no follow up questions and my stubbornness to not want to be the one to keep things going. It's exhausting. Whats the answer? What's next? I'm 100% strapped in and ready to explore this with you. Xx
I wish we could send a memo to men "Let's strike a deal...you put some effort in and we'll reward you - we'll say thanks, we'll respond etc" . I feel it's "wrong" for women to do the constant chasing...for those evolutionary reasons I mention.
Oh Sarah. Who would stand YOU UP ?! My goodness! I’m a very happily married hetero woman but geez, if I got a date with you I’d be rapt! You’re so cool and interesting and kind and funny and smart.
The stories I hear from women friends of varying ages align perfectly with yours. And then when one of my friends started to see a man regularly (and this happened repeatedly with different men) they would be clingy then cagey then loving then cold…. It was a mind fuck.
I am fascinated by your theories, they always seem to hit the mark for me. And I am so saddened by the treatment you and other good women receive online.
I have a teenage son , I can see and feel the trouble for men in him. So I’m very invested in this conversation….
Keep going beautiful Sarah. I believe in love. And I reckon you do too!
✊🏽💘
Cleo, see my feedback on Chris' comment - about how women just can't fathom men giving up because a woman might actually be worthy/fun/kind/cool etc.
The clingy- cagey-cold cycle...oh my, yes!
Oh yes Chris I do understand this . 100%. And I am thankful that you have articulated it so well. I think this is what my friends needed the men she was seeing to tell her as well. Both parties feel vulnerable in the early stages of a relationship, that’s where the intimacy is. It’s such a shame that men feel the way you explain, and I fully get it. So we must do better for our young men. Teach them when they’re young (at high school it seems to get worse real quick) that expressing your feelings in a safe space is ok. It’s good. And being let down by a woman is not a failing. Girls and women are also scared to say no thanks sometimes because of possible consequences… it’s a mess! And it needs work from grass roots of society. (My son also reports that the girls get away with everything in the classroom while boys are constantly in trouble. And girls laugh at the boys for being in trouble. This is all wrong as well! Not holding girls responsible for their behaviour is not equality. Is not feminism. So the boys are not learning to trust women or the system) Thanks for your message. I appreciate the conversation and the opinion and knowledge. Best wishes
Great piece Sarah, I recognised the dynamic well from my own 10 years of being on and off the apps. In my 20s, and as a card-carrying (Gen X) feminist, I used to take the initiative to ask guys out (after there had been some mutual display of interest) and to a man they HATED it! I was told by one guy that he liked to be the hunter/pursuer and by asking him out I'd taken away his role in the dynamic - it left him no script, no moves. It comes back to the edgy place where the products of the feminist movement meet male ego - whilst I was attempting to rewrite the sexual dynamic, nobody had told the guys that it was time to play a different game. And tbh they didn't need to - most of my female peers did covert manipulation/organisation work to set up the seduction scenario (like the when and where of the actual date) whilst appearing to be totally passive. They were willing to do that and whilst I wasn't, I can see that women have historically needed to hide their agency/power for their own safety. So my interpretation of all the vagueness, avoidance, and flakiness (once I'd depersonalised) was that it's fecking impossible to do this dance with strangers online where the legwork needs to be more overt. I'd also agree that scrolling for love online is very late stage/predatory capitalist - we don't yet have a genuine equivalent of the village matchmaker, it's more like the village horsefair out there with everyone on a drunken rampage. It's a fine balance holding the possibility of love in your heart by working the apps against stepping away and having some trust in the flow of the Universe. Long story short: whilst I don't have the answers, I do totally recognise the scenarios! Good luck Sarah and thanks for sharing your journey - this writing certainly helped me to understand a painful strand of my dating history.
I like the subtle points you make re the covert power dynamics that have probably always been at play (there's that quote that women ask men to marry them...they just make them feel it was all their idea) but can't translate online. I am very similar to you - I have never been able to do said "covert" game.
Thanks for writing this Sarah. Great points to make. I’m going to make some off the top of my head comments about what you’ve written re personal. I guess what comes to mind is I am wondering what are you actually wanting from men. What are you actually looking for in a man? What does it look like?
TBH most of us older heterosexual feminist gals who have gotton into relationships later in life have perhaps decided to ‘settle’ after years of men dating bullshit or just be happily single. I have many friends living their best lives and they don’t even think about men.
Our generation has been fed alot of bullshit about romantic love and marriage. About how that should look.
At this later age life stage a relationship can be what you want it to be but you are probably not going to find a single available man who understands both feminism etc…and is at a similar age life stage. Especially not on a dating app. Any man who really gets it is already paired up and probably well trained by an awesome woman.
You say 1/2 your best friends are men. Are they not available to be in a relationship?? Or do they have friends that might be compatible.
A friend who was on the apps for ages gave up and asked all her friends to find her someone. While he is not the love of her life, he’s a fun, kind person who is open to learning. He wouldn’t have any idea what a ‘feminist’ even is.
For myself I can’t be arsed educating or training a man but I have enjoyed a long relationship with a man who I have never or have never lived with and enjoy the parts where we intersect together. I like that he has my back. We have even raised our child together.
I did a degree in women’s studies in the mid 1980’s so have been thinking about this stuff everyday since then. The more you evolve beyond patriarchy, the more personal freedom and power you gain you see that the rest of humanity will never catch up to you. It can be an isolating position to be in. Hence ….you probably need to compromise and settle for ‘good enough’ Or give up on men and find other love or be single.
21! Sar, I'm in shock. I can understand 1, maybe 2 ... but 21! What's wrong with these guys? What happened to old fashioned manners and politeness? It's crazy.
My heart breaks for you, Sar. And everyone else experiencing this. As you say, missing out on life and love!
I'm lost for words ... I best sign off. Big hugs, big love. x
Thank you. Yes, a less tenacious person would have given up at 2 or 3. But my hope drives me. It takes a massive toll, however. Mostly it leaves me despairing for ALL OF US. The phenomenon is sad.
Sar ... I'm guessing you still read the SMH while away. This article will be in Sunday's paper but if you use your access you can read it now.
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/is-there-an-age-when-we-give-up-on-love-20240411-p5fj0f.html
sigh. I will never give up. Mostly cos Ive not had it since I was 28. I have decades to make up for.
Seems that if you have lots of friends like Ian then you are not missing out on love ❤️😃
Indeed. Ian and I met when he came to my first ever book launch in 2012
Good on you, Sar. I'm believing for you, my friend. x
Hi Sarah,
Very good, very "un moany" article. I'm 71 and happily married and have been around the block enough to know that trying to find love is not how it works. Life itself has a huge say in this story and sometimes life is just not in agreement with some people finding and being in a loving, procreative relationship.
Life is also quite proactive on this level, as in, if you have 21 no shows to dates you have arranged, life itself maybe trying to tell you something about what it may want from or for you. You must have heard about going with the flow of the river instead of swimming upstream, 21 no shows is a mighty strong current you are swimming into.
My advice would be drop the apps and trust that if life is in agreement with you finding love, life will arrange it for you. A famous Indian mystic once said that we are all sitting on a train holding our luggage above our heads, just put it down and enjoy the ride.
Wishing you all the best
Sarito, your advice lands well with me. The Indian wisdom also helpful x