Well said Sarah, and well done breaking free. Dating apps distort all that could be good real intimacy into banality at best and abuse at worst. Worst of all you don't even have to be on the apps yourself to suffer their effects, which cast long shadows.
I've been three years off the apps and redirecting my social/emotional energy to local community (and my sexual energy inwards). I'm way less lonely than when i was dating. And I've finally started writing and publishing, 2 books so far. As a middle aged, mostly het woman I'm in my prime of life and I won't be wasting any more time on all that nonsense.
We are precisely the people who should not be on them. We have shit to get down. That said, Feeld can be good if you do just want intimacy without strings. It's funny, isn't it, how we are a generation who've turned the entire scenario around (ie it's in our interest to treat intimacy as transactional)
They are terrible. I slogged through my mid 20s to early 30s on them. I was also the one with all married friends wanting to live vicariously through my stories - most of which were actually awful, traumatic and humiliating, but I found a way to turn them into humorous tales to protect my sanity.
That being said... My husband and I met on tinder and I will forever be grateful for that. If I were still single now though I wouldn't put myself through it.
I think 5+ years ago people DID actually meet on the apps. I really do think the algorithms changed things...dialing up poor behaviour, which circled back into the algorithmic hell-hole etc.
I'm on my way to work, but the apps discussion reminded me of a YouTube essay I watched yesterday from Alice Cappelle - she's a young, smart, feminist French woman, who was talking about apps , Bumblebee in particular. I recommend it. The comments were interesting as well. I haven't been on the apps, I'm still married.
She also wrote a book Collapse Feminism - summary:Analyses how conservative and anti-feminist ideas are filtered through social media, and how we can collectively fight back against them to reclaim our future online. / I haven't got around to reading it, but I'm planning to.
This was so fascinating to listen to - thank you Sarah. I'm 43 and been divorced for nearly 3 years now. Loads of my friends have been pushing me to get on the apps but I have absolutely no desire to at all. And have heard such awful stories of ghosting, choking etc etc. Spending time getting to know myself after being in a very emotionally abusive relationship for nearly 13 years and am loving this time just to be me. It's funny though how much others around me are ao concerned with me 'ending up alone'. That being said I am open to meeting men in real life and have met some interesting guys who've ended up being good friends.
Oh dear, Sarah. It's sadly typical from what I've heard. Wealthy men are worse. I'm planning to co-author a book on this soon.
I must say that my profile, personality, and lifestyle is totally unlike those described, and I'm very glad of that. I was on the apps for a few years, on and off, and it was my 'different' profile that appealed (I was told). Thank goodness for that.
That's what I have been told by a number of female friends dating via the sites. There's commonly little personal interest, other than value as arm candy to the point of actively showing off to any willing male audience (often in combination with their expensive cars). No real effort there. It seems strongly ego driven, I'm told.
I had an experience with a wealthy man recently - it felt like a competition. He could not let me make a point without "owning it" in some way. And I realised he was struggling to know how to impress me once he worked out I'm not interested in money, status etc.
I had a similar dynamic, perhaps not dissimilar, quickly develop with a wealthy woman. It was when I expressed my disinterest in wealth and status, particularly formal academic status (she worked as an academic and was old money). But that was unusual, and every other lady saw my approach as refreshing. I find it hard to have conversations with very wealthy men, mainly because they're predictable, boring and far too competitive. So I can only guess how horrible it must be for women when dating.
I loved this podcast and good on you for being so honest and vulnerable. I wish we could all be this way to have more authentic conversations.
I don't know why I have always had such a repulsion for dating apps. I went on Bumble once for about 3 hours on the insistence of my friends and felt so exposed. And the thought of someone looking at my face, and quickly swiping no, (or left I think) felt awful.
My experience with Australian men, the ones that I would normally be drawn to, are drawn to my daughters. And the ones left are, (and sorry to any good men reading this, it's a massive generalisation I know) were either broke and looking for someone to take care of them financially or ...just not my type.
So I did a Sarah Wilson and moved to Europe this year and the world seems like a different place in this department. I feel seen and appreciated and respected.
I wonder if this is an Australian issue with men and if so, why? (and again...sorry).
Well said and so many thoughts here. Dating apps have gotten progressively worse for sure over the years alongside tech advancement. They are more transactional, more gamified and more monetized, and they've done a stellar job of exploiting and reinforcing our most superficial and moloch-y type behaviour. The one thing though that has really done us in, I think, is the paradox of choice online dating and the apps enforce, outside of all that other stuff. That PERFECT person is just one click away. We can always do better. Relationships and connection, as a result, have just become so casual, fleeting and more superficial over the years I've found working in this industry. People don't dive in anymore and give people a chance! And I think the growing gender divide and men slipping behind/struggling with relating are huge factors too, outside of the apps, as we've been discussing here.
The guidance and support I give these days to my clients looking for a relationship is around breaking the app reliance/addiction. Take regular breaks, or view the apps as only one tool in your toolbox, instead of the whole toolbox. 25% of your efforts at most should be on the apps, the rest should be focused on meeting people through getting out in the world, expanding your circle, and doing the things that bring you joy. With the right mindset, the apps can still be a great way to meet people you wouldn't normally be meeting. I get though that breaking that addiction is easier said than done and it can spiral easily.
Personally, It's been the worst of times and the best of times on the apps for me. :) Like you Sarah I've been on and off them for a really long time. I mean I've had so many bad dates and seen so much bad behaviour, but also met so many good humans and had amazing/deep and fun experiences I definitely wouldn't have had if weren't for the wide range reach of the apps. Especially if travelling a lot.
The drought was broken when I turned the apps off - I need to break the addiction. I may go back on them for meeting people, as you say. But I'm going to ensure my dopamine is super settled before I do.
I'll say this, that you have been stood up 21 times is quite something as you appear to have all the attributes I imagine someone going for ...Smart ,successful and attractive.Has your messaging been unclear or could men be intimadated by you?
In principal I think dating apps could be good if they weren't set up like social media and with silly boosts and add ons and perhaps endless choice like a porn gallery. I like the idea of just being honest in what you want and who you are Sadly even in person people will bullshit each other and really not know who they are and what they want...
I’m also off the apps after a few years dabbling. And similarly, found the most decent interactions happened on Feeld.
I first read about Feeld in The New Yorker and my curiosity was aroused. I loved that there was a frankness there on display, a “Here’s what I’m after” vibe.
I learnt so much about the wonderful world of people’s kinks (there was lots of furious acronym googling, which I suspect influenced my algorithm for a while).
Thanks for the insight and lovely to hear you’ve bumped into a fellow excellent human in a very old school way.
Thanks for these reflections. I really loved my time on dating apps, mostly Tinder and Hinge, sometimes more specific kink sites. I was an early adopter with websites like OK Cupid when it was awkward and geeky. I had lots of fun, lots of weird as hell experiences, met a handful of people who are still really good friends, met people in other countries when I was travelling. It felt like a way to meet people who were random or different or just to realise the sheer variety of mostly men in mostly Melbourne. There were some shitty times (like the guy who said I ate too much?!) but mostly it was just fascinating. I haven't been on apps for 6 years now, so it is great reading your reflections and everyone else's below. Thank you! One of my PhD students is doing her project on dating, apps and intimacy (Australians, around early 30s) - I'll see if she has anything to chip in that could be interesting to everyone else.
I didn't meet my current partner via apps though. I met him because I ate alone very frequently, for years, at a restaurant I loved (and took many dates there) and he was the chef there. He finds all of these apps terrifying. My brother met his now (and perhaps first serious) girlfriend via bumble in the pandemic and now they're looking at adopting dogs and buying a small unit (they also dress the same - puffy jackets, same new balance shoes). I think I miss talking to strangers with that sort of openness I felt all those years ago on apps, but glad to avoid the fish/yachts/banter etc.
I keep thinking about what the next product launch will be given the profits for the apps are diminishing. Tinder has the "share your date with friends" function but that is hardly groundbreaking or going to boost $.
Hi Sarah. Not sure if this is the best spot to put this recommendation but I've just finished a great book who could be a good guest on your podcast. The book is "The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality" by Amanda Montell. Her book is similar to your Wild one, where she collates and analyses a bunch of academic research but makes it super digestible and peppered with her own memoir-type experiences. It's about some of the thinking patterns in our modern society / culture and the problems that stem from this. There is a chapter on 'declinism' (the thinking that things are always getting worse) so would be interesting to see how this relates to your work on system collapse which is essentially arguing that for real guys - things are getting worse! Thanks again for your work :)
Thank you Sarah for your audio clip and collation of articles on the state of dating. After my 24 yr marriage broke up late last year I decided to give a dating app a go and it wasn't a good experience at all. Suffice to say I will never use an app again. My personal choice. I will also add that my daughter met her fiance via Tinder (my daughter was his first date!). Also my son is very anti dating app. I can't see him using them in the future.
they have to get off porn. period. I can't see another way. Porn normalises so many things and men watch it in a hormonally vulnerable place and just absorb the images and messages, including that women actually like being choked, having their hair pulled etc.
I agree completely. I think it is actually viewed more by men over 30.
But the facts about boys having their first porn viewing at 10-11 years old is just awful.
When their brain is still forming they see that stuff and their brain starts forming kinks based on choking. And worse, their view of a woman and her role in sex based about satisfying the man as the priority. Show me any porn that finishes with the "money shot" being a women climaxing.
Have told my son to do the opposite of anything he sees in porn and he will go a long way to having a better experience and satisfied partner when navigating sex.
Well said Sarah, and well done breaking free. Dating apps distort all that could be good real intimacy into banality at best and abuse at worst. Worst of all you don't even have to be on the apps yourself to suffer their effects, which cast long shadows.
I've been three years off the apps and redirecting my social/emotional energy to local community (and my sexual energy inwards). I'm way less lonely than when i was dating. And I've finally started writing and publishing, 2 books so far. As a middle aged, mostly het woman I'm in my prime of life and I won't be wasting any more time on all that nonsense.
We are precisely the people who should not be on them. We have shit to get down. That said, Feeld can be good if you do just want intimacy without strings. It's funny, isn't it, how we are a generation who've turned the entire scenario around (ie it's in our interest to treat intimacy as transactional)
They are terrible. I slogged through my mid 20s to early 30s on them. I was also the one with all married friends wanting to live vicariously through my stories - most of which were actually awful, traumatic and humiliating, but I found a way to turn them into humorous tales to protect my sanity.
That being said... My husband and I met on tinder and I will forever be grateful for that. If I were still single now though I wouldn't put myself through it.
I think 5+ years ago people DID actually meet on the apps. I really do think the algorithms changed things...dialing up poor behaviour, which circled back into the algorithmic hell-hole etc.
I'm on my way to work, but the apps discussion reminded me of a YouTube essay I watched yesterday from Alice Cappelle - she's a young, smart, feminist French woman, who was talking about apps , Bumblebee in particular. I recommend it. The comments were interesting as well. I haven't been on the apps, I'm still married.
OK, now following Alice. She looks cool.
She also wrote a book Collapse Feminism - summary:Analyses how conservative and anti-feminist ideas are filtered through social media, and how we can collectively fight back against them to reclaim our future online. / I haven't got around to reading it, but I'm planning to.
This was so fascinating to listen to - thank you Sarah. I'm 43 and been divorced for nearly 3 years now. Loads of my friends have been pushing me to get on the apps but I have absolutely no desire to at all. And have heard such awful stories of ghosting, choking etc etc. Spending time getting to know myself after being in a very emotionally abusive relationship for nearly 13 years and am loving this time just to be me. It's funny though how much others around me are ao concerned with me 'ending up alone'. That being said I am open to meeting men in real life and have met some interesting guys who've ended up being good friends.
Enjoy watching it all play out!
Oh dear, Sarah. It's sadly typical from what I've heard. Wealthy men are worse. I'm planning to co-author a book on this soon.
I must say that my profile, personality, and lifestyle is totally unlike those described, and I'm very glad of that. I was on the apps for a few years, on and off, and it was my 'different' profile that appealed (I was told). Thank goodness for that.
what's your take on wealthy men in this space...? my experience has been they expect women to be default desiring.
That's what I have been told by a number of female friends dating via the sites. There's commonly little personal interest, other than value as arm candy to the point of actively showing off to any willing male audience (often in combination with their expensive cars). No real effort there. It seems strongly ego driven, I'm told.
I had an experience with a wealthy man recently - it felt like a competition. He could not let me make a point without "owning it" in some way. And I realised he was struggling to know how to impress me once he worked out I'm not interested in money, status etc.
I had a similar dynamic, perhaps not dissimilar, quickly develop with a wealthy woman. It was when I expressed my disinterest in wealth and status, particularly formal academic status (she worked as an academic and was old money). But that was unusual, and every other lady saw my approach as refreshing. I find it hard to have conversations with very wealthy men, mainly because they're predictable, boring and far too competitive. So I can only guess how horrible it must be for women when dating.
I loved this podcast and good on you for being so honest and vulnerable. I wish we could all be this way to have more authentic conversations.
I don't know why I have always had such a repulsion for dating apps. I went on Bumble once for about 3 hours on the insistence of my friends and felt so exposed. And the thought of someone looking at my face, and quickly swiping no, (or left I think) felt awful.
My experience with Australian men, the ones that I would normally be drawn to, are drawn to my daughters. And the ones left are, (and sorry to any good men reading this, it's a massive generalisation I know) were either broke and looking for someone to take care of them financially or ...just not my type.
So I did a Sarah Wilson and moved to Europe this year and the world seems like a different place in this department. I feel seen and appreciated and respected.
I wonder if this is an Australian issue with men and if so, why? (and again...sorry).
Mel, the Aussie man problem is real. I touch on how and why in some of the links above. Enjoy feeling non-invisible!
Well said and so many thoughts here. Dating apps have gotten progressively worse for sure over the years alongside tech advancement. They are more transactional, more gamified and more monetized, and they've done a stellar job of exploiting and reinforcing our most superficial and moloch-y type behaviour. The one thing though that has really done us in, I think, is the paradox of choice online dating and the apps enforce, outside of all that other stuff. That PERFECT person is just one click away. We can always do better. Relationships and connection, as a result, have just become so casual, fleeting and more superficial over the years I've found working in this industry. People don't dive in anymore and give people a chance! And I think the growing gender divide and men slipping behind/struggling with relating are huge factors too, outside of the apps, as we've been discussing here.
The guidance and support I give these days to my clients looking for a relationship is around breaking the app reliance/addiction. Take regular breaks, or view the apps as only one tool in your toolbox, instead of the whole toolbox. 25% of your efforts at most should be on the apps, the rest should be focused on meeting people through getting out in the world, expanding your circle, and doing the things that bring you joy. With the right mindset, the apps can still be a great way to meet people you wouldn't normally be meeting. I get though that breaking that addiction is easier said than done and it can spiral easily.
Personally, It's been the worst of times and the best of times on the apps for me. :) Like you Sarah I've been on and off them for a really long time. I mean I've had so many bad dates and seen so much bad behaviour, but also met so many good humans and had amazing/deep and fun experiences I definitely wouldn't have had if weren't for the wide range reach of the apps. Especially if travelling a lot.
The drought was broken when I turned the apps off - I need to break the addiction. I may go back on them for meeting people, as you say. But I'm going to ensure my dopamine is super settled before I do.
Amazing! Yes, so important to be centred and in a good place when using them. Have a strategy! It can go south pretty quick.
I am glad you've met a nice guy. Happy for you, Sarah.
I'll see how it goes....x
I'll say this, that you have been stood up 21 times is quite something as you appear to have all the attributes I imagine someone going for ...Smart ,successful and attractive.Has your messaging been unclear or could men be intimadated by you?
In principal I think dating apps could be good if they weren't set up like social media and with silly boosts and add ons and perhaps endless choice like a porn gallery. I like the idea of just being honest in what you want and who you are Sadly even in person people will bullshit each other and really not know who they are and what they want...
.
Alas, I'm told that "I intimidate men"...as though it's something I'm trying to do. Many women are told this, which begs, why are men intimated?
Great discussion!
I’m also off the apps after a few years dabbling. And similarly, found the most decent interactions happened on Feeld.
I first read about Feeld in The New Yorker and my curiosity was aroused. I loved that there was a frankness there on display, a “Here’s what I’m after” vibe.
I learnt so much about the wonderful world of people’s kinks (there was lots of furious acronym googling, which I suspect influenced my algorithm for a while).
Thanks for the insight and lovely to hear you’ve bumped into a fellow excellent human in a very old school way.
the acronyms!!!
I quite loved seeing how complex humans are via the bios. The honesty was really lovely, too
Thanks for these reflections. I really loved my time on dating apps, mostly Tinder and Hinge, sometimes more specific kink sites. I was an early adopter with websites like OK Cupid when it was awkward and geeky. I had lots of fun, lots of weird as hell experiences, met a handful of people who are still really good friends, met people in other countries when I was travelling. It felt like a way to meet people who were random or different or just to realise the sheer variety of mostly men in mostly Melbourne. There were some shitty times (like the guy who said I ate too much?!) but mostly it was just fascinating. I haven't been on apps for 6 years now, so it is great reading your reflections and everyone else's below. Thank you! One of my PhD students is doing her project on dating, apps and intimacy (Australians, around early 30s) - I'll see if she has anything to chip in that could be interesting to everyone else.
I didn't meet my current partner via apps though. I met him because I ate alone very frequently, for years, at a restaurant I loved (and took many dates there) and he was the chef there. He finds all of these apps terrifying. My brother met his now (and perhaps first serious) girlfriend via bumble in the pandemic and now they're looking at adopting dogs and buying a small unit (they also dress the same - puffy jackets, same new balance shoes). I think I miss talking to strangers with that sort of openness I felt all those years ago on apps, but glad to avoid the fish/yachts/banter etc.
I'd love to hear what your student has to say
I'll find out when she's back from a conference :)
I keep thinking about what the next product launch will be given the profits for the apps are diminishing. Tinder has the "share your date with friends" function but that is hardly groundbreaking or going to boost $.
Hi Sarah. Not sure if this is the best spot to put this recommendation but I've just finished a great book who could be a good guest on your podcast. The book is "The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality" by Amanda Montell. Her book is similar to your Wild one, where she collates and analyses a bunch of academic research but makes it super digestible and peppered with her own memoir-type experiences. It's about some of the thinking patterns in our modern society / culture and the problems that stem from this. There is a chapter on 'declinism' (the thinking that things are always getting worse) so would be interesting to see how this relates to your work on system collapse which is essentially arguing that for real guys - things are getting worse! Thanks again for your work :)
having a look!
Thank you Sarah for your audio clip and collation of articles on the state of dating. After my 24 yr marriage broke up late last year I decided to give a dating app a go and it wasn't a good experience at all. Suffice to say I will never use an app again. My personal choice. I will also add that my daughter met her fiance via Tinder (my daughter was his first date!). Also my son is very anti dating app. I can't see him using them in the future.
Stood up 21 times is shocking enough...but I cannot believe the 70-80% of guys choking on first dates. My mind is blown.
Have i missed the memo where kissing got left outside the bedroom?
I've had a few great talks to my youngest boy(18) about porn. Best part is they were all brought up by him and asking me what the deal is.
Agree it is such an issue now. Just a simple matter of respect and consent.
they have to get off porn. period. I can't see another way. Porn normalises so many things and men watch it in a hormonally vulnerable place and just absorb the images and messages, including that women actually like being choked, having their hair pulled etc.
I agree completely. I think it is actually viewed more by men over 30.
But the facts about boys having their first porn viewing at 10-11 years old is just awful.
When their brain is still forming they see that stuff and their brain starts forming kinks based on choking. And worse, their view of a woman and her role in sex based about satisfying the man as the priority. Show me any porn that finishes with the "money shot" being a women climaxing.
Have told my son to do the opposite of anything he sees in porn and he will go a long way to having a better experience and satisfied partner when navigating sex.