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To the idea of the 'shadow', I have felt for some time that Donald Trump is the Shadow of modernity, made flesh. He is all that has been hidden and repressed in the story of progress.

As I feel sure you have written elsewhere, 'apocalypse' does not mean 'the end of the world' - "The Greek root for apocalypse [αποκαλυπτω | αποκαλυψισ] is a verb meaning to uncover, reveal, lay bare, or disclose."

Corcoran, P. (2000). The Meaning of Apocalypse. In: Awaiting Apocalypse. Palgrave Macmillan, London. https://doi.org/10.1057/9780230597310_6

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Yep, in the most recent chapter! x

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:) x

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Gratitude and grief. Its all so hard to hold the darkness, when the burn is so strong.

Wishing you all a peaceful xmas season, and a harvest of sanity and strength ahead.

“It is just this moment, when you look up from the last page or turn from the

last thought, the last disturbance, or the last heartache, that you find the

seed of a better day tucked into the folds of your palm. First light is the end

of the clarity of the stars, but it is the beginning of your planting that hard

won seed in the field of your days. This is the great act of faith our time

requires of us, that we live as if we have been entrusted with something

precious and mandatory, as people needed by an imperilled time.” S.

Jenkinson. Die Wise 2015: 382

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Another big Stephen Jenkinson fan here. Sarah's podcast with him was fascinating too - he is not an easy man!

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Yes, he's spooky!

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One of my favourite books, Michael. Stephen Jenkinson’s approach to end of life, grief and elder hood has been very influential on me and its high time I revisit his work as it’s been a few years but feels deeply resonant now as ever. Especially in the context of the need for maturity in these times.

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That is just a beautiful quote ❤️

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Holding it all can feel so heavy at times. I've started to think of the holding as a form of meditation in order to carry it amidst the rest of life. I've listened to the Vanessa De Andreotti episode 4 times, and I just realized yesterday I keep being drawn back to it because she laughs softly throughout the conversation. It softens my heart amidst it all to hear someone at the forefront of this work with quiet joy, tenderness, and unflinching honesty in her voice and affect.

Just a quick note to say too that the Gavin Van Horn quote comes from a wonderful little 5 Volume series titled "Kinship" (Planet, Place, Partners, Persons, and Practice) edited by Gavin Van Horn, Robin Wall Kimmerer, and John Hausdoeffer, and published by the Centre for Humans and Nature: https://humansandnature.org/.

They have a new series coming out titled Elementals, and a book club for it starting in January. It looks amazing and like something that folks who really want to tie in all of the learning in a spiritual and intellectual practice would really like. It sounds like most of the contributors for Elementals are Indigenous, and I believe that the authors are participating. I remember some folks on here were talking about Tyson Yunkaporta's Sand Talk; my hope is to participate in the series and that it might be an opportunity to consider some of the concepts he introduces about language, place, creation, etc. in conversation with others.

Edited to add: just went to order the Elementals book series, and it is $171.00, which is prohibitive to a lot of folks. I'm going to write to the editors and ask about the possibility of a pdf version at a reduced cost.

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Thank you Madeleine, I would be happy to pay for someone who is very interested in doing the series. Do you need support to take part?

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Ah, Sarah, your gesture is beautiful. ❤️❤️❤️I think that I can have a significant chunk of the cost reimbursed by a continuing education fund that my employer offers, as the content of the study has direct relevance to my work of spiritual companioning/leadership and chaplaincy through collapse. I'll check into that today and let you know. Do you think that someone here in the comment section who doesn't have those extra supports and who would otherwise not be able to participate in such a thing would benefit? Edited to add: yup, I can claim a good chunk of the 171.00. Thank you from my heart to yours, though❤️

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I have listened twice and sat in my car and cried at the end both times. Both for the tenderness shared by Sarah and Vanessa and also in gratitude for the incredible service Sarah has gifted us all putting this podcast out into the world for 4 years. SO MUCH WORK! As I said in my Apple Podcast review, it's been "a PhD in sanity". Big love and gratitude here.

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Thank you Jody...for all your support x

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What a perfect description!

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I felt very similarly listening to Vanessa (have listened twice now). Struck by her tenderness and a real sense of peace alongside the pain of deeply witnessing.

Also, thanks for sharing Kinship and Elementals. I wasn’t familiar with this org but it looks fantastic and these series especially. Let me know if you decide to go ahead and join the book club. I’m interested but may do better with an accountability buddy!

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Hi Sass! Awesome! I think that I will. It looks like it is hosted by one of the editors, and features the authors of the volume. Participants are not on camera, but can write questions in the chat feature on Zoom. I just watched part of the recorded video from the Kinship series and it looks like something that hits that exquisite sweet spot where intellectual excitement and spiritual nourishment meet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAmPaeGZsrk.

The Elementals study begins on January 15th, is an hour long, and starts at 8pm CST in North America. It is hosted by Point Reyes Books. Does that time work for you where you are in the world?

Here is the registration page: https://ptreyesbooks.com/event/2025-01-15/elementals-book-club-earth-vol-1

I just watched parts of a recording of the first study, and Robin Wall Kimmerer ends the study with a reflection on the reciprocity between plant life and the rest of creation; how we breath in each other's breath, and how contemplating this act is an invitation to "home". Happy sigh! You can check out the link above in the first paragraph to hear it. RWK's bit that I just described is at the end.

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can you and Sass report back? I just won't have space to commit at that time...and am not great at committing in general! But would love to learn more

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Absolutely!

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I effing LOVE the quote from Ellen about sacrificing the rich and re-distributing their wealth. It has a reverse Hunger Games vibe and appeals to my growing sense of anger. I'm about to read Tim Winton's new novel Juice, which is set post-climate-apocalypse and involves a character whose job is to assassinate fossil fuel moguls...

The Western Australian government has just approved bauxite mining expansion for South32 Worsley Alumina, which will involve clearing thousands of hectares of Jarrah forest. We know that natural areas are going to be valuable beyond measure for the resilience of human populations to the effects of climate change, and the Jarrah forest is the largest naturally vegetated area within a short distance of the majority of WA's population. I am wildly angry. This is all about profits for a large american corporation to extract low grade ore from underneath irreplaceable and ancient forest and label it 'necessary for transition to green energy' (because we need aluminum for the steel frames of solar panels or something, idk). The forest will not be the only collateral, we are also sacrificing the future resilience / survival of the WA population.

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Yep, nature keeps being sidelined, even in the dogged pursuit of net zero. Without addressing the "mindset" that drives this extractive approach, nothing will change at that level. All of us here can keep focusing on shifting the mindset.

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Thousands of hectares of Jarrah Forest. Cleared. Forever gone. These are the words I am now repeating over and over. I am digesting them. I am feeling their impact. My heart breaks as my fury, despair and numb resignation collide. This is one atrocity amongst so many. I’ve walked in those forests. Sometimes it feels too much.

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Have you read Overstory by Richard Powers?

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I’ve just read a review of that book… It feels too close… Sarah would you recommend it? I remember reading Silent Spring in year 7 or 8… and the shock, outrage, grief that I e perienced and shared with my class was a common response amongst my peers - unlike the numb, ‘so what?’ weirdness expressed by too many today in response to whatever the latest narrative is… That would have been in the early 70s. I know the response from polluters was to double down on their propaganda… and I wonder if their propaganda and all subsequent fuckery and enshitification has led to normalisation of, numbness to catastrophe rendered possible by the disassociated profit grabbers who have objectified all species?

Reading Braiding Sweetgrass reduced me to tears but also connected me with delight and unbridled joy bc the story and the storyteller were themselves so entwined, braided, I guess… it was a story told through embodied connection with life and death. It felt hopeful, embodied, real. I wonder if stories of collapse expressed through embodied connection create pathways and openings that render the abstract real? Reading the wonderful comments here, I feel connection. Again, it feels hopeful, real… thank you all…

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Yep, I would recommend it. It's a clever book...mostly about the beauty of trees.

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I haven't read it but am about to order a bunch of summer reading and will check it out. K

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A stunning, stunning book. Highly recommend to anyone here. Richard Powers is brilliant.

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Deborah, as I walk my dog this morning here in my part of Canada, I will be holding space for you and your pain -- the deep ache comes through in your words. I will be willing the beauty of creation, so abundant in the diffuse gold and pink morning sun, to surround you and hold you as you ache and lament. In so many ways it feels like those who seek these conversations happening here are called to be living sacrifices: sacrificing our comfort, denial, convenience, etc in order to look reality in the face and not flinch.

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Madeleine thank you, thank you. Such a beautiful evocative loving and appreciated response. I love the feeling of being embraced in the gold and pink morning sun… I bring it to mind and breathe out, relax, even smile… I agree that our sacrifice may well be to look reality in the face and not flinch… and to do so we need to hold each other… And not many have the strength to do that. So perhaps it’s important to find those that can and to actively, intentionally seek them out?

I say this bc last June I travelled outback in Australia, following a once mighty river system - the Murray Darling… and found the grief almost too much to bear. This river used to be the lifeblood of so many species. Unfortunately it was dammed by early colonialists, rerouted to suit the crops and livestock of pastoralists and poisoned by fertiliser run off from same crops… including cotton plantations which have no fucking place in arid Australian outback anyway.. As I gazed at this devastation I heard the wonder of tourists appreciating the decimated bird life - mostly pelicans and a few other water birds… I saw hopefuls with fishing lines after hearing from locals about the lack of native fish bc of introduced feral species (carp) that essentially destroyed their habitat and food sources… the dissonance was extraordinary and so, so invalidating… I wondered if it was me? Maybe I was wrong to be distressed… I travelled further south to Mildura, a town on the Murray river I used to visit frequently in my early 20s. Then, in the early 80s, We gathered onboard a friend’s houseboat to meander up the river, marvelling at the wildlife, fish we caught, birds, volume of water, life!!

This year was the first time I’d returned for any length of time. I awoke at dawn with joyful anticipation to walk the banks of the Murray. I later walked at dusk … with dread… in hope. At dawn, at dusk, there were NO birds. Well maybe a crow, or a miner (introduced)…. I was desolate. My travelling companion would not / could not tolerate my distress. Up until then I’d attempted to contain It. In Mildura I could not.

So I rang my theologian / pastor friend. She could listen. She heard. She encouraged me to open to the unknowing, she encouraged me to expand my ‘seeing’ beyond my gaze and feel the connection with life that continued in the void. Oh my God. It helped. It rebalanced and reminded me that remaining connected to life, to each other, to all that is, in the absence of what was, is what we must do to remain available, helpful, and connected to each other. I feel that here. With this group. With you. ❤️

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I’m so glad that you feel space in your soul to process it all in this place, here. You are a deeply feeling person whose emotions are connected with your values in a profound way. Your friend sounds like a very wise woman ❤️; what a gift to have that kind of connection. Thank you for telling this story, above.

It is all so very heavy. I have to remind myself to be in the present day. A major watershed and major river in southern Alberta is very likely going to be destroyed by Northback Mining Co, a company owned by Gina Reinhart. it is almost too much to bear.

Today I read an article today about a black fungus growing in Chernobyl that seems to be absorbing radiation and converting it to energy. It reminded me that life finds a way.

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I feel your fury. Massive. <3

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This is how the Green Agenda will drive extraction and tyranny at any cost to planet and people.

I am with you Kirsty on the rich and distributing their wealth, best idea I have heard in a long while.

It’s good to be angry , shows you care and have energy for the what you need to do. 💗

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Sharing this pain and fury. It blows me away and I can't believe it, yet I can. As Nate Hagens said on one of his "frankly" episodes recently the environment will always come dead last in decision making "climate is not going to be chosen or prioritised at a global level". It certainly won't in Australia. Devestating

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Hi Sarah!

My thoughts:

- I love that you gave 'the talk' to some fancy investment firm CEO - go you!

- I literally could not believe the part about the Trump perfume - wtf?!

- Jungian thesis about revealing the shadow - I love this, as terrifying as it is.

- Trees are the best.

- Honestly the devaluing and obliteration of the COP process, for so many reasons, but mostly because the fossil fuel lobbyists have ruined it is so heartbreaking. We need a convention that is dynamic and ready to go, not for everyone to waste time on figuring out how to get it working again. It's such a distraction. I've heard so many arguments on why they should be included (because it affects them and they could be part of the 'solution') and also that they provide funding. Gah!

Thanks for all your brilliant work. Have a wonderful Christmas :)

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Thanks RR. We can witness, too, the COP from 3 weeks ago that was addressing plastics ...delayed for the 6th or 7th year.

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I loved that quote about sacrificing the richest - one a year, (but maybe would only take a few years since they'd be giving it away like mad), too...and also thought it HungerGamesesque.... The mind boggles at how things could change (potentially) with that kind of wealth redistribution...or would it? Likely the previously very poor would just want more of what the middle class have...and the cycle keeps accelerating.

This crazy premise is that we must have MORE of everything, 24hrs/day: no substitutes accepted.

Living in a big city (Melbourne) for the first time this year, I sometimes ponder if we were told we could only use HALF the power and water we currently have access to, in all places on the planet with mains water & power, then what a dramatic drop in fossil fuel usage we could achieve with little dent to our precious "standard of living".

Having lived on solar and tank water for many years, I know it wouldnt be that hard...some planning & scheduling of our activities would be involved, but hey presto! a dramatic decline in emissions and energy usage! Of course this would apply to industry and commerce too - including AI. ;). Possibly our existing sustainable energy sources would almost be able to cater as well, without needing to create more if we werent so greedy.

A tiny step, done with global consciousness, that could lead to many more.

I feel all heady just thinking about it!

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The point is - we don't even have to sacrifice them...once the edict is in place they'll all be motivated to offload their wealth tout de suite!

I think city dwellers and all of us will be pushed to the situation you describe very soon. Ergo, the idea of simplifying ahead of the rush. Sooner we get used to less, the less painful we will find the future.

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Ellen's quote about wealth redistribution reminds me of the ethic and practice of Jubilee in ancient Judaism in the Hebrew Scriptures. I think that it is from Leviticus. It hasn't been practiced in millenia, and indeed the whole concept of nationalism is antithetical to it. It's amazing how that connection between wealth redistribution and spiritual health for individuals and nations was central to the founding of the Hebrew nation (not state, just nation).

The purpose of Jubilee was that every 50 years, on the Day of Atonement, landowners would redistribute the land to its original owners, and some slaves or servants would be freed. Debts would be forgiven and there would be a material reset of sorts so that families got a chance to make a clean go of it. There was a political movement running up to the year 2000 (I believe that Bono was associated with it) to do something similar with international debt.

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Like forgiving student loans...

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That is is the only ethical way of addressing the natural flow of resources towards a few people. It just is the way it is, and inevitably creates chaos and collapse within the families who are “winning”.

Buffet knows this, and is why he is giving it all away in the end.

You either choose to step back to ground zero , or ground zero will swallow you up.

Requires a correction within the state and also the private sectors though. Both ends of the stick are bulging with bullshit

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Beat the rush! Simplify now.

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There is wisdom though in celebrating achievement and acknowledging the force of will and organisation that creates great wealth.

As long as it is created by something meaningful. To celebrate those who have contributed , and give them what they so desperately crave. Recognition and legacy.

The evil rich guy vs the workers idea needs to be rejigged. As it creates divide and victimhood and perpetrators running amok. While also being addressed , because so much wealth is created through exploitation and oppression.

But all this is just a very pimply and awkward phase. If we don’t drink ourselves to death, or have a silly accident, or accidentally get Mars pregnant. We should see a return to the appreciation of hard work and the sharing of bread.

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Thankyou again Sarah for your broad ranging research and insights. Yes ‘The Hidden Life of Trees’ a great elbow in the ribs to sharpen our awareness! I have had the opportunity to meet and dialogue with Deborah Bird Rose (d.2018), a woman who expressed the mature characteristics you have spoken about. Her treatise ‘Sharing Kinship with Nature’, a sensitive treatment of human nature relations, gives access to her beautiful hard earned wisdoms and worth the small effort to lean into if you have time. She guides a walk with the practices of nature-human engagement through Australian Aboriginal voices and also with those who have been moved to recognise and listen to those voices.

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Thanks Tony, is that a book?

It's funny, even the way you write of Deborah and her work is gentle somehow.

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This was difficult to read today.

My kids (17 and 24) are talking about relationships and jobs and their dreams and I am despairing for their future.

I love the Billionaire Solution. I have long thought that wealth should be capped at a billion dollars (who needs that much) and the rest distributed to the poorest. Dreams.

Not a day of dreaming today.

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courage to you Deni x

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I just reread your post again.

"a tree shares growth with other trees, plants, animals and microbes and will inhibit its own growth to benefit younger trees and other species, and itself - so these hormones will be released to ensure the whole tree only grows so far as the available light, water and nutrients allow. It grows only so far as growth helps it and life flourish!"

THIS!

If we stopped talking right now and did nothing else but follow the Trees model... right there in front of us all this time. Its why we go hang out with them. We already know but somehow we forgot.

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Yep, nature has most of our answers.

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I like B's work. The Perestroika analogy is a good one here.

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So many beautiful quotes that bring a strange serenity to what is coming. The idea of sacrificing the world's richest people and distributing their wealth - perfect! I recently finished Tim Winton's book and his version of this resonated so closely with my imagined 'Climate Trials 2050' that it was a relief to know I'm not the only one with such imaginings.

How strange that the idea of being fully awake to this situation has been hijacked by the idea of 'woke' being bad. I suppose people are just scared and do not like us talking maturely and calmly about the hospicing of modernity being the foregone necessity that it is. Some will cling to the old world like their life depends on it, even when it is actually destroying such a life simply through its very existence.

Thanks to everyone who has shared things, it gives much to think about.

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7dEdited

“What you people call collapse means living in the same conditions as the people who grow your coffee.” Love that.

Working continually in and out of PNG over the last decade has given me something far more important than the money I've been paid. Gratitude. And its cost is zero.

One time I flew back into Brisbane airport and the rain had flooded the highway just past the Gold Coast, so I couldn't get through to home on Northern Rivers.

All the accommodation around there was booked because of that, so I just slept in my car until the morning when the water cleared over the highway.

When I returned back up there a month later I told some locals that worked with me and they were so excited about me simply having a nice car to sleep in. I'll never forget it.

The place has changed my life in many ways, including a resentment then toward my now ex-wife, about lack of gratitude for how we lived and what we had. There's not always somebody worse off. There is half the planet always worse off.

Some people have no idea how others in the world live.

Sometimes I think this "reckoning" if or when it arrives will be the best thing for humans.

Thanks Sarah.

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I appreciate your work so much.

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Dear Sarah,

Thanks for being you and holding strong. This book is just so dynamic!

It is the epitome of creativity happening at the edge.

You are so wise and generous to allow us to be in the space while you hold it.

I think you and this project are both an anchor and a window. Bless.X

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I feel a deepening resolve to do more on the home front and in the bigger picture in response to this urgent clarion call for creating sane and sensible ( eventhough we have no surety of a livable future) actions. It is a privilege to be able to share in this marvelous book project, led by Sarah who is such a brilliant researcher, provocateur and writer. But I also know that 'the mass of men (sic) lead lives of quiet desperation' ( Thoreau) and I feel my job is to speak as clearly as I can to those I live with in my home community about the work that still must done and encourage people not to turn away, ignore or feel totally helpless. I am keen to get involved in the Gavin Van Horn series (thank you Madrlrine😊). My partner works in Climate and World Heritage and he and his partner (a climate physicist) have developed the CVI - Climate Vulnerability Index- and train World heritage site managers in using this index for adaptation and hopefully preservation purposes. The world and most people are still beautiful.

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