Thank you Sarah, I loved reading this and I agree that we need to find ways to have better conversations about life, love and the universe.
I do find it depends on where you are in Australia. Having grown up in regional Queensland, I was a reader and debater and I was privileged in a state school to have a great history and English teachers that encouraged debate and ideas. I then carried this through to study in Brisbane and found similar opportunities at university.
However, my family are mostly farmers and lovers of football who generally didn’t finish high school and as much as I love them, I struggle to connect with them because they talk about the weather or the footy scores or how many beers they drank last weekend or the latest mine that’s going to offer them a job or the latest way to scam money from the government because they feel ‘owed’. I go ‘home’ only a few times a year. I miss my mum who died in 2020 and would cut out articles out of the local paper to chat to me about (they also don’t have a local paper anymore, like many regional towns).
Since moving to Melbourne, I met my husband who is from Sydney and can chat about politics, equality, environment as well as sport. He supported me not changing my name when we got married which ‘shock horror’ is just not done where I am from. We also actively share the load of chores in our house and we talk about gender in sport and work.
I have great feminist and education chats with a friend at yoga, I chat politics and cities with colleagues and random people on the train or the farmers market. I meet and have tea and learn about refugees at Welcome dinner parties hosted by my mother in law.
I feel mentally stimulated by the real and nuanced discussion and conversation and it is a big part of why I love living here. (Maybe you live in the wrong part of the country Sarah?!) - Note most of the progressive women that got into federal politics were from Victoria...
I agree with the AFR article written a little while ago (October 2019), that as a country we are ‘young, rich, dumb and getting dumber’. It’s a paradox that we are the 8th richest nation and yet we have the export profile of Angola. But it’s more than just the economic impacts of being ‘dumb’, it’s also the social and environmental impacts, which are also significant but underplayed by this article.
I am thankful for the opportunities you provide to have these fearless and frank discussions are important for Australian society.
More of us need to wake up, put a snooze on our social media and read a real book, paper or article and form our own opinions about this country, before we suffer another brain drain and more people leave for brighter places. Australia has so much potential, and I feel with this latest election, we are on track to getting there...
Alicia, it sounds like you proactively seek out the right engagements. And we can all do that. After reading all the comments here I'm toying with doing a philosophy club tour of sorts...
Nicely said. I also have a mum and dad who would post articles and clippings to me whilst living in Greece. They always taught us kids to question everything and to be deep thinkers. My dad and Grandad read poetry and always talked politics and philosophy. I do agree with Sarah concerning some Aussie men and the lack of deep conversation but you don’t have to look too far to find like minded peeps. Also deliberately looked for men who did not watch football and had some kind of large/European family background with strong women, good food, creative minds and lively connected conversation. Also chose to live in an community which thrives artistically, is environmentally and culturally engaged and political progressive.
I think it has something to do with Aust being an outdoor culture too (I noticed this in Europe - re the weather/winters there forcing folks indoors and into more intellectual pursuits). Aust white culture is also quite young, comp to Europe. I think also what passes for intellectual debate here is often focused around politics.
Weather and climate are definitely factors. But I'd point out that Greece and Portugal have very rich philosophical cultures. What if we narrowed it down to surf culture as defining?
I agree re those locales however I think proximity to Europe (the home of white Western thought) helps and white AUstralia's colonial origins also play a part (which you suggested). I also googled cultural cringe/cultural alienation :) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe
Hey Liz, I'll second that! Nothing quite like the short, dark days of a Euro winter to force you into contemplation. I guess that's it's own hardship too, like Sarah mentioned.
Thank you Sarah! I loved reading this. I especially like your metaphor. I feel the same. I feel alone in my desire for intellectual deep conversations. I try to have these kinds of chats at times with my family but no one likes a difference of opinion or a bit of conflict, but I think that is healthy and needed! I actually get so much from listening to your podcast and reading this blog! I want to be challenged, reflect daily and be stretched to my limits, and then some more. Evolve, grow, learn, connect, heal and awaken!
Sigh...yes, we are deemed "too heavy" , "too intense". I'm reading everyone's comments here and realising we need more philosophy clubs. The School of Life is a good start for anyone wanting a formal group
Great articulation. From my (married, white, male, privileged) perspective, I agree with the metaphor of the overweight dude on the couch.
I think we're in the middle of a perfect storm - think Johann Hari's Stolen Focus and Lost Connections, Timothy Morton's Hyperobjects idea you talk about in your last book, the brokenness of capitalism... 2.5 years of utter disruption, people being emotionally / mentally / spiritually / physically WRUNG OUT from the clusterfuckery of life recently.
I'm sorry you experience the worst of men in single-dom. I don't think stating the problems you're experiencing means you're a stuck-up whiner. But I wonder whether financial privilege is part of this? Like, does our wealth allow us the luxury or bandwidth for these kinds of conversations?
I don't know if many people feel like they're far enough up Maslow's hierarchy to consider and think too hard about these issues, when they're all head-down, on the tools, being a good little economic unit to pay the (ever terrifying) mortgage and compete with racing inflation AND stifled wages.
I personally am pretty awake, pretty self-aware, and well emotionally-regulated (despite prior depression and anxiety diagnoses) ... and I work full-time coaching men to lead better lives in all these (and more) ways.
HOWEVER. I still find myself bogged down by all this.
I have regular dark nights of the soul, existential crises... I experience a semi-regular battle between my higher wisdom and cause-focussed work and faith and trust; and the inner gyroscope, which has 45 years of being aligned to capitalist marketing telling me bigger better faster more.
I still hold firmly a belief that we're experiencing a profound drought of hope, self-love, self-worth, alignment to meaningful/purposeful work. Men especially.
It's almost impossible to be compassionate, loving, kind, generous unless we actively practice self-compassion, self-love, self-kindness, self-generosity.
No answers either. Just more musings on this topic. I think there's LOTS of room for dialogue on this... and maybe the cynic in me secretly believes we must watch as the changing climate literally burns down the capitalist shitshow, so a new way of living and working and loving can grow, phoenix-like from the ashes?
Israel, your comments here are all always so considered and helpful. Thank you. Yep - it's a privilege to ponder this stuff, to some extent. But as I flag in an earlier comment relating to weather conditions determining some of this, profound conversations are happening in far less prosperous countries and communities than the one I live in.
I agree re the drought of meaning among men. Toxic masculine culture damages men and women in equal measure I think.
I've been reflecting on exactly this this past month. I'm currently in Perth visiting family after living in NZ the last few years. The reverse culture shock has been more than you'd expect between Australia and NZ. Although you'll find all types of people, no matter where you live in the world.
Recently I heard extractive economies referred to as 'Mordor economies' in a podcast. When I heard that I immediately recognised how much of a Mordor economy Australia is...so perhaps our obsession with destroying habitats and ecosystems also comes with the intellectualism of Orc's?
As you said, there are a lot of deep thinkers in Australia too but its harder to find in the mainstream. Whenever I need to be reminded that I'm not alone in being an Australian who considers things deeply I listen to The Minefield on ABC RN.
Edit: I can't comment much about dating in Australia, although it wouldn't surprise me. My partner is a Kiwi and most of the guys I've dated were not Australian. Also my pen name is Hamersley because when I had my very feminine first name as my username and I commented on substack (especially anything to do with economics in Australia), I would get harassed/abused. So I changed my user name to Hamersley and now I get agreement on my comments.
Thanks, and just to clarify it wasn't commenting on your substack that got me unwanted attention. Your community it great, thanks for everything you're doing!
I hear you on the dating front. I've dated men in Sweden, Germany, France, Japan, The Netherlands and Portugal. It was an accidental investigation into men around the world. Without exception, men outside Australia weren't just able to have deeper, more robust conversations, they wanted to.
There is a generation of men growing up now but I don't think it solves our conundrum: finding romantic relationships with men in Australia who are the generation above. A friend of mine recently told me that what I am in fact after is an International Australian. She may be onto something.
Your post came at an interesting time. I am about to go to Europe for a few months. The pandemic kept me here after 7 years living in Europe. I made peace with being here even though I don't find it intellectually or spiritually nourishing. I worry about how I'll feel after landing in Amsterdam and realising that world is still there. Not sure what the solution is. Maybe a double Aussie-Euro existence. But I want to avoid what I'm currently doing, which is shutting myself off from a lot of Aussie life (media, spaces, events) because I find it's intelectually barren. That's what makes you feel lonely, doesn't it? And the worry that some, but not enough of us want to change. Goodness, a bit of a downer comment!
I'll leave you on this note: I reckon this stuff trickles before you find it's a puddle and then a lake. I find a lot of relief in reading your notes, and the comments of your readers who feel just like we do. Phew. :)
@Steph Sepan - International Australian. I like that. After 20 years in the US and potentially looking to spend some time in Europe before maybe going home . ... my friends are all from different countries and backgrounds and I am so grateful for their friendship and the conversations we share. I am Australian .. but also sort of something else.
Thanks, Liz. It feels like it's the best way to describe it, doesn't it?
I can imagine how special those friendships are. I love mine too.
I hope you get to spend some time in Europe (it's an interesting time to be here as well). And if you do come back to Australia, that the landing is soft. I know how difficult it can be. Happy travels! S
Thank you Steph! I love this reply to Sarah. I particularly love the sentence about not finding it spiritually or intellectually nourishing. This totally sums me up right now, here. It is up to me to do something about it, maybe a European adventure is due. I love that you are off overseas again to follow your joy. Good on you! Best Wishes. Enjoy
I agree with Clem as well Steph, a beautful reply and so great to read :) It's comforting to know that I am not the only one who struggles with the isolation that the larrikin Australian culture brings. Best of luck with your travels! :)
Hi Sarah, I so appreciate this article and your "rant". It cleared the air a little. I lived in the USA for five years (and would still be there sans pandemic which grounded me here - and being home is wonderful in ways as well, thank you grace of this country). I miss the deep thinking, the public forums, the populations that reflect deeply on things openly and the ease of having interesting conversations in places where that is welcomed. Here I feel a carry a role of "deep thinker" and it feels lonely and burdensome. Isolating. I too contemplate moving to Europe. When there in the USA people would ask me if the same conversations happened back home in Oz, and I would explain rarely, that we were so relaxed and blessed (also a good thing in many ways) and too well off, we had never had certain brutalities (or at least ones we are willing to engage fully about such as colonial impacts, etc) that cause the kind of enduring and horrific pain that force a population to work on things because there is no choice. Our "opulance" gives us space. Yet many people are deeply suffering in Australia, as well as our environment. How to we bring this conversation back?
People are suffering here...and I'd sum it up as a deficit of meaning. Humans do tend to derive purpose and meaning from having access grit and other character traits. Perhaps this suffering in itself...the emptiness...will see us have to have these conversations going forward. I started this newsletter for this reason...to stoke things a bit.
The deficit of meaning is like a hunger and an also a profound agony - one that many folks do not know how to fill, for sure. And spend a lot and consume a lot to replace.... my work is about meaning too. touching right into that place in my own way.
Keep stoking Sarah, it takes courage, grit, vision and I am loving it! And enjoying your podcast (as a subscriber) too!
THIS THIS THIS thank you for putting these words down
I’ve lived in Paris for 4 years and before that London for 2
Before 30 I lived in Aus but something wasn’t right for me
I get asked my family and friends why I’m not back yet and others ask why I like living in Paris
All I’ve managed to put my finger on in an answer is
I feel uncomfortable here and I like that (yes I mean uncomfortable, that’s not a typo)
your comments have really helped me understand this feeling more so yes please, please talk & share about this more… it helps those who can’t describe it
And you have permission to not live in Australia for a bit, a while, however long that happens
you can still love and call it home
and those within it
as a country I feel like we are quite judgy on those who leave - not sure why
you don’t have to tell people what is happening, just like they don’t with their life plans within australia
(as I get asked a lot - when are you coming back, are you staying there… I don’t bloody know, that’s the ride, my ride, bugger off!)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Sarah. I can very much relate to everything you’ve posted here and have been feeling the same frustrations for many years.
I left Australia the day after I graduated from uni (I couldn’t wait to get out) and spent several years living in Europe. When I returned to Australia, towards the end of the Howard years, the country felt even more isolated, parochial and cruel, especially in its treatment of refugees post Tampa, not to mention its ongoing violence towards First Nations people. What I found especially perplexing was that there appeared to be even less public engagement with these issues than there had been previously, and I think the creeping influence of neoliberal ideology and the newfound wealth that many Australians experienced from the 90s onwards explains some of this.
The fact that we’ve been in an extended period of uninterrupted economic growth and prosperity has led many people to prioritise wealth accumulation and social status above all else. Living in inner city Sydney (where property is by far the most popular topic of social conversation), this felt especially acute.
My family and I ended up leaving Sydney 18 months ago and are on a three year journey around Australia, the main focus of which is to learn more about First Nations culture and teach our children the truth about Australia’s brutal history (a history that they certainly weren’t being taught at school before we left). For me personally, it’s also about trying to find a love for this country that I think I’ve lost or perhaps never really had – being aware from a young age that I was living on stolen land in a culture built on mythology and lies.
My family and I have all become far more connected to Country since leaving Sydney (we’re passionate hikers and nature lovers, like you) and we have zero desire to ever live in Sydney again.
Once we finish this trip, we plan to head to either Asia or South America and continue our travels there. We spent seven months backpacking around 11 countries in southern and southeast Asia in 2019 and one thing that was so refreshing about that trip was that in all the time we were travelling, my partner and I didn’t meet a single person who asked either of us “what do you do (for a living)”? We met so many incredible people and shared some amazing conversations, but people were far more interested in asking where we were from, asking about our kids and family, and sharing stories from their own countries and cultures. So my disenchantment with Australia and the common discourse here is not just about the anti-intellectualism, but also about the fact that it feels that many relationships have become increasingly transactional – another symptom of our uninterrupted economic ‘boom’, I suspect.
I feel very fortunate to have a lot of wonderful, authentic friendships and a long-term (European) partner who I met before the advent of online dating, but I see this dynamic also play out with single friends who are trying to form meaningful relationships in these times, and even in my closest friendships, it’s difficult to have conversations about big ideas and the state of the world because people are so caught up in the minutiae of their lives, and there’s also such a deep denial and avoidance happening at the moment of the existential crisis / crises we’re facing. It can feel very isolating to care deeply about these things and sense the unwillingness of most people around you to even acknowledge, let alone want to engage in conversations about these issues. However, I think this refusal to dive beneath the surface is going to ultimately be our undoing…
Thanks for providing this space for some of us to share our thoughts. It’s reassuring to know that perhaps we’re not as alone as we think we are and that there are other Australians who feel the same way.
These comments encapsulate so well what I’ve been feeling for a long time now living in Australia for the past 22 years. A deep denial, a disconnect from spirit. The country’s huge pain body which is a result of our dark history of colonisation is sucking the life out of me. My heart is broken. I’m back in France now, and feel I can finally breathe again. I do love Australia, not the white culture but the land that sings the songs of Aboriginal ancestors and their deep knowing and connection. I hope the country can move forward by acknowledging the painful past.
you are not a stuckup whiner. This is real. My parents were Italian immigrants coming to Australia in the 1950's. The were very poor farmers but I only remember important political and societal discussions in my childhood. The "lucky country" was a common theme, but now it has bitten us on the arse. (what is IME?)
My father was from the UK (my mum Australian with a British father) and my brother and I also grew up with conversations similar to the ones you mention above. He spent most of his career working abroad so I think that might have had something do with it too. That and his refusal to remain staunchly British by not taking dual citizenship and rejecting Australian sausages :)
Great article Sarah. I wonder about this as an Australian living in Paris for the last almost 4 years, after marrying a Frenchman. When I first moved to France I felt whiplashed by the culture shock and in my mind, what I felt were daily inconveniences (bad weather, frequent strikes, cold people, a lot more pessimistic vibe generally) but over time I've come to find these things challenging me to be a deeper thinker. I miss many things about Australia but not the Aussie larrikin culture. I feel we could be and so much better beyond it
I 100% agree with your stance on dating in Australia, I'm a single 25 year old and the bulk of the men I see on dating apps in Australia always has a laidback, jokey profile (most of them drinking beers etc.) Funnily enough, the best philosophical conversations I have in Australia are with friends who have lived overseas and have a more international background. So many Australians also haven't travelled overseas, particularly in the older generations and that plays a role in narrow-mindedness I think.
Firstly, you are not being a stuck-up whiner, you speak truth, light fires in us and our society to get us talking and shine a light on what so many of us have been thinking and feeling.
As a mid 30's woman who has been a solid dater both ten years ago and in the last five years, I've noticed a distinct change in men in that time. I'm sure part of it has to do with the way we date now, on apps, as opposed to when men would introduce themselves at the bar, the petrol station, the gym etc. But the overall vibe I noticed in the past few years was a lack of effort. On dates or on the apps they'd ask what I'm looking for and I'd say: Effort. By this I mean, organize a date, ask questions to get to know me (as opposed to just talking about themselves), talk to me about your views on politics, the climate crisis, be well read and informed etc. I might as well have been asking them to walk to Pluto! So yes, this is something that I've noticed and that bugs me and I think we humans are never going to get our shit together and find a way for us all to live sustainably on what's left of our beautiful home if people are apathetic.
PS - the Lech Blaine podcast was one of my favs because it touched on something very relatable and wanted to understand.
PPS - You aren't alone Sarah, we're here with you, feeling and thinking the same :)
Another woman who wholeheartedly agrees with what you're saying. I feel very isolated with my thoughts because I rarely get any engagement when I express them. These days I much prefer to listen to a few podcasts I love than to actually converse with the people around me...I find it so much more fulfilling, which makes me really sad. I thought it might be an age thing (I'm 32 so most people around me are having families and I assume raising children is all-consuming) but I think it's a wider problem, like you said. I am just so utterly bored with life atm. So I eat the bad food and watch the tv shows to find some stimulation. But it makes me depressed. My partner and I have decided to do some travel to get us both out of this rut. I am craving deep conversation so much but can't seem to find it anywhere here.
Yes, as a collective we're fat and happy. White Australians have not had to struggle much which I feel goes some way to explaining the insular and panicked response to covid. Imagine if we had to deal with war in our borders or something equally terrifying. I doubt we'd have Ukrainian fortitude to withstand such pressure.
The depth of discourse really depends on the company you keep in my opinion. I have many deep and intellectual conversations on a daily basis. And, when you travel you generally meet people with a broader world perspective.
European countries have huge and similar problems that may not be obvious at first glance. Italy is going to the polls this month and will likely elect a very reactionary government, France lurched to the right and let's just say I doubt these trends are based on intellectual conversations.
Thank you Sarah, I loved reading this and I agree that we need to find ways to have better conversations about life, love and the universe.
I do find it depends on where you are in Australia. Having grown up in regional Queensland, I was a reader and debater and I was privileged in a state school to have a great history and English teachers that encouraged debate and ideas. I then carried this through to study in Brisbane and found similar opportunities at university.
However, my family are mostly farmers and lovers of football who generally didn’t finish high school and as much as I love them, I struggle to connect with them because they talk about the weather or the footy scores or how many beers they drank last weekend or the latest mine that’s going to offer them a job or the latest way to scam money from the government because they feel ‘owed’. I go ‘home’ only a few times a year. I miss my mum who died in 2020 and would cut out articles out of the local paper to chat to me about (they also don’t have a local paper anymore, like many regional towns).
Since moving to Melbourne, I met my husband who is from Sydney and can chat about politics, equality, environment as well as sport. He supported me not changing my name when we got married which ‘shock horror’ is just not done where I am from. We also actively share the load of chores in our house and we talk about gender in sport and work.
I have great feminist and education chats with a friend at yoga, I chat politics and cities with colleagues and random people on the train or the farmers market. I meet and have tea and learn about refugees at Welcome dinner parties hosted by my mother in law.
I feel mentally stimulated by the real and nuanced discussion and conversation and it is a big part of why I love living here. (Maybe you live in the wrong part of the country Sarah?!) - Note most of the progressive women that got into federal politics were from Victoria...
I agree with the AFR article written a little while ago (October 2019), that as a country we are ‘young, rich, dumb and getting dumber’. It’s a paradox that we are the 8th richest nation and yet we have the export profile of Angola. But it’s more than just the economic impacts of being ‘dumb’, it’s also the social and environmental impacts, which are also significant but underplayed by this article.
I am thankful for the opportunities you provide to have these fearless and frank discussions are important for Australian society.
More of us need to wake up, put a snooze on our social media and read a real book, paper or article and form our own opinions about this country, before we suffer another brain drain and more people leave for brighter places. Australia has so much potential, and I feel with this latest election, we are on track to getting there...
Alicia, it sounds like you proactively seek out the right engagements. And we can all do that. After reading all the comments here I'm toying with doing a philosophy club tour of sorts...
yes! please come to WA.. I feel we are so cut off from deep thinking practice here in the West.
Agreed! I miss talking to people who have conversations about real things and who are open to changing their mind.
Yes please!!!
Yes yes yes!
Nicely said. I also have a mum and dad who would post articles and clippings to me whilst living in Greece. They always taught us kids to question everything and to be deep thinkers. My dad and Grandad read poetry and always talked politics and philosophy. I do agree with Sarah concerning some Aussie men and the lack of deep conversation but you don’t have to look too far to find like minded peeps. Also deliberately looked for men who did not watch football and had some kind of large/European family background with strong women, good food, creative minds and lively connected conversation. Also chose to live in an community which thrives artistically, is environmentally and culturally engaged and political progressive.
I think it has something to do with Aust being an outdoor culture too (I noticed this in Europe - re the weather/winters there forcing folks indoors and into more intellectual pursuits). Aust white culture is also quite young, comp to Europe. I think also what passes for intellectual debate here is often focused around politics.
Weather and climate are definitely factors. But I'd point out that Greece and Portugal have very rich philosophical cultures. What if we narrowed it down to surf culture as defining?
I agree re those locales however I think proximity to Europe (the home of white Western thought) helps and white AUstralia's colonial origins also play a part (which you suggested). I also googled cultural cringe/cultural alienation :) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe
Hey Liz, I'll second that! Nothing quite like the short, dark days of a Euro winter to force you into contemplation. I guess that's it's own hardship too, like Sarah mentioned.
Thank you Sarah! I loved reading this. I especially like your metaphor. I feel the same. I feel alone in my desire for intellectual deep conversations. I try to have these kinds of chats at times with my family but no one likes a difference of opinion or a bit of conflict, but I think that is healthy and needed! I actually get so much from listening to your podcast and reading this blog! I want to be challenged, reflect daily and be stretched to my limits, and then some more. Evolve, grow, learn, connect, heal and awaken!
Sigh...yes, we are deemed "too heavy" , "too intense". I'm reading everyone's comments here and realising we need more philosophy clubs. The School of Life is a good start for anyone wanting a formal group
Gf
Great articulation. From my (married, white, male, privileged) perspective, I agree with the metaphor of the overweight dude on the couch.
I think we're in the middle of a perfect storm - think Johann Hari's Stolen Focus and Lost Connections, Timothy Morton's Hyperobjects idea you talk about in your last book, the brokenness of capitalism... 2.5 years of utter disruption, people being emotionally / mentally / spiritually / physically WRUNG OUT from the clusterfuckery of life recently.
I'm sorry you experience the worst of men in single-dom. I don't think stating the problems you're experiencing means you're a stuck-up whiner. But I wonder whether financial privilege is part of this? Like, does our wealth allow us the luxury or bandwidth for these kinds of conversations?
I don't know if many people feel like they're far enough up Maslow's hierarchy to consider and think too hard about these issues, when they're all head-down, on the tools, being a good little economic unit to pay the (ever terrifying) mortgage and compete with racing inflation AND stifled wages.
I personally am pretty awake, pretty self-aware, and well emotionally-regulated (despite prior depression and anxiety diagnoses) ... and I work full-time coaching men to lead better lives in all these (and more) ways.
HOWEVER. I still find myself bogged down by all this.
I have regular dark nights of the soul, existential crises... I experience a semi-regular battle between my higher wisdom and cause-focussed work and faith and trust; and the inner gyroscope, which has 45 years of being aligned to capitalist marketing telling me bigger better faster more.
I still hold firmly a belief that we're experiencing a profound drought of hope, self-love, self-worth, alignment to meaningful/purposeful work. Men especially.
It's almost impossible to be compassionate, loving, kind, generous unless we actively practice self-compassion, self-love, self-kindness, self-generosity.
No answers either. Just more musings on this topic. I think there's LOTS of room for dialogue on this... and maybe the cynic in me secretly believes we must watch as the changing climate literally burns down the capitalist shitshow, so a new way of living and working and loving can grow, phoenix-like from the ashes?
With love and gratitude,
Israel. xo 😃❤️🙏
Israel, your comments here are all always so considered and helpful. Thank you. Yep - it's a privilege to ponder this stuff, to some extent. But as I flag in an earlier comment relating to weather conditions determining some of this, profound conversations are happening in far less prosperous countries and communities than the one I live in.
I agree re the drought of meaning among men. Toxic masculine culture damages men and women in equal measure I think.
I've been reflecting on exactly this this past month. I'm currently in Perth visiting family after living in NZ the last few years. The reverse culture shock has been more than you'd expect between Australia and NZ. Although you'll find all types of people, no matter where you live in the world.
Recently I heard extractive economies referred to as 'Mordor economies' in a podcast. When I heard that I immediately recognised how much of a Mordor economy Australia is...so perhaps our obsession with destroying habitats and ecosystems also comes with the intellectualism of Orc's?
As you said, there are a lot of deep thinkers in Australia too but its harder to find in the mainstream. Whenever I need to be reminded that I'm not alone in being an Australian who considers things deeply I listen to The Minefield on ABC RN.
Edit: I can't comment much about dating in Australia, although it wouldn't surprise me. My partner is a Kiwi and most of the guys I've dated were not Australian. Also my pen name is Hamersley because when I had my very feminine first name as my username and I commented on substack (especially anything to do with economics in Australia), I would get harassed/abused. So I changed my user name to Hamersley and now I get agreement on my comments.
I've also heard that Mordor phrase. Fitting.
I'm REALLY upset you had to change your name to be treated with respect. I understand why it is an effective strategy. Thanks for alerting us H!
Thanks, and just to clarify it wasn't commenting on your substack that got me unwanted attention. Your community it great, thanks for everything you're doing!
Mordor Economies, That’s Nate Hagens term isn’t it?
Sure is :)
I’d have preferred “Isengard economy”. But so it goes… ;)
Hey Sarah, not whingy at all.
I hear you on the dating front. I've dated men in Sweden, Germany, France, Japan, The Netherlands and Portugal. It was an accidental investigation into men around the world. Without exception, men outside Australia weren't just able to have deeper, more robust conversations, they wanted to.
There is a generation of men growing up now but I don't think it solves our conundrum: finding romantic relationships with men in Australia who are the generation above. A friend of mine recently told me that what I am in fact after is an International Australian. She may be onto something.
Your post came at an interesting time. I am about to go to Europe for a few months. The pandemic kept me here after 7 years living in Europe. I made peace with being here even though I don't find it intellectually or spiritually nourishing. I worry about how I'll feel after landing in Amsterdam and realising that world is still there. Not sure what the solution is. Maybe a double Aussie-Euro existence. But I want to avoid what I'm currently doing, which is shutting myself off from a lot of Aussie life (media, spaces, events) because I find it's intelectually barren. That's what makes you feel lonely, doesn't it? And the worry that some, but not enough of us want to change. Goodness, a bit of a downer comment!
I'll leave you on this note: I reckon this stuff trickles before you find it's a puddle and then a lake. I find a lot of relief in reading your notes, and the comments of your readers who feel just like we do. Phew. :)
@Steph Sepan - International Australian. I like that. After 20 years in the US and potentially looking to spend some time in Europe before maybe going home . ... my friends are all from different countries and backgrounds and I am so grateful for their friendship and the conversations we share. I am Australian .. but also sort of something else.
Thanks, Liz. It feels like it's the best way to describe it, doesn't it?
I can imagine how special those friendships are. I love mine too.
I hope you get to spend some time in Europe (it's an interesting time to be here as well). And if you do come back to Australia, that the landing is soft. I know how difficult it can be. Happy travels! S
Thank you Steph! I love this reply to Sarah. I particularly love the sentence about not finding it spiritually or intellectually nourishing. This totally sums me up right now, here. It is up to me to do something about it, maybe a European adventure is due. I love that you are off overseas again to follow your joy. Good on you! Best Wishes. Enjoy
Thank you, Clem! Love your enthusiasm too. Hope you find the nourishment you're after. x S
I agree with Clem as well Steph, a beautful reply and so great to read :) It's comforting to know that I am not the only one who struggles with the isolation that the larrikin Australian culture brings. Best of luck with your travels! :)
Hi Sarah, I so appreciate this article and your "rant". It cleared the air a little. I lived in the USA for five years (and would still be there sans pandemic which grounded me here - and being home is wonderful in ways as well, thank you grace of this country). I miss the deep thinking, the public forums, the populations that reflect deeply on things openly and the ease of having interesting conversations in places where that is welcomed. Here I feel a carry a role of "deep thinker" and it feels lonely and burdensome. Isolating. I too contemplate moving to Europe. When there in the USA people would ask me if the same conversations happened back home in Oz, and I would explain rarely, that we were so relaxed and blessed (also a good thing in many ways) and too well off, we had never had certain brutalities (or at least ones we are willing to engage fully about such as colonial impacts, etc) that cause the kind of enduring and horrific pain that force a population to work on things because there is no choice. Our "opulance" gives us space. Yet many people are deeply suffering in Australia, as well as our environment. How to we bring this conversation back?
People are suffering here...and I'd sum it up as a deficit of meaning. Humans do tend to derive purpose and meaning from having access grit and other character traits. Perhaps this suffering in itself...the emptiness...will see us have to have these conversations going forward. I started this newsletter for this reason...to stoke things a bit.
The deficit of meaning is like a hunger and an also a profound agony - one that many folks do not know how to fill, for sure. And spend a lot and consume a lot to replace.... my work is about meaning too. touching right into that place in my own way.
Keep stoking Sarah, it takes courage, grit, vision and I am loving it! And enjoying your podcast (as a subscriber) too!
Thanks Myree...love your thoughts here.
THIS THIS THIS thank you for putting these words down
I’ve lived in Paris for 4 years and before that London for 2
Before 30 I lived in Aus but something wasn’t right for me
I get asked my family and friends why I’m not back yet and others ask why I like living in Paris
All I’ve managed to put my finger on in an answer is
I feel uncomfortable here and I like that (yes I mean uncomfortable, that’s not a typo)
your comments have really helped me understand this feeling more so yes please, please talk & share about this more… it helps those who can’t describe it
And you have permission to not live in Australia for a bit, a while, however long that happens
you can still love and call it home
and those within it
as a country I feel like we are quite judgy on those who leave - not sure why
you don’t have to tell people what is happening, just like they don’t with their life plans within australia
(as I get asked a lot - when are you coming back, are you staying there… I don’t bloody know, that’s the ride, my ride, bugger off!)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Sarah. I can very much relate to everything you’ve posted here and have been feeling the same frustrations for many years.
I left Australia the day after I graduated from uni (I couldn’t wait to get out) and spent several years living in Europe. When I returned to Australia, towards the end of the Howard years, the country felt even more isolated, parochial and cruel, especially in its treatment of refugees post Tampa, not to mention its ongoing violence towards First Nations people. What I found especially perplexing was that there appeared to be even less public engagement with these issues than there had been previously, and I think the creeping influence of neoliberal ideology and the newfound wealth that many Australians experienced from the 90s onwards explains some of this.
The fact that we’ve been in an extended period of uninterrupted economic growth and prosperity has led many people to prioritise wealth accumulation and social status above all else. Living in inner city Sydney (where property is by far the most popular topic of social conversation), this felt especially acute.
My family and I ended up leaving Sydney 18 months ago and are on a three year journey around Australia, the main focus of which is to learn more about First Nations culture and teach our children the truth about Australia’s brutal history (a history that they certainly weren’t being taught at school before we left). For me personally, it’s also about trying to find a love for this country that I think I’ve lost or perhaps never really had – being aware from a young age that I was living on stolen land in a culture built on mythology and lies.
My family and I have all become far more connected to Country since leaving Sydney (we’re passionate hikers and nature lovers, like you) and we have zero desire to ever live in Sydney again.
Once we finish this trip, we plan to head to either Asia or South America and continue our travels there. We spent seven months backpacking around 11 countries in southern and southeast Asia in 2019 and one thing that was so refreshing about that trip was that in all the time we were travelling, my partner and I didn’t meet a single person who asked either of us “what do you do (for a living)”? We met so many incredible people and shared some amazing conversations, but people were far more interested in asking where we were from, asking about our kids and family, and sharing stories from their own countries and cultures. So my disenchantment with Australia and the common discourse here is not just about the anti-intellectualism, but also about the fact that it feels that many relationships have become increasingly transactional – another symptom of our uninterrupted economic ‘boom’, I suspect.
I feel very fortunate to have a lot of wonderful, authentic friendships and a long-term (European) partner who I met before the advent of online dating, but I see this dynamic also play out with single friends who are trying to form meaningful relationships in these times, and even in my closest friendships, it’s difficult to have conversations about big ideas and the state of the world because people are so caught up in the minutiae of their lives, and there’s also such a deep denial and avoidance happening at the moment of the existential crisis / crises we’re facing. It can feel very isolating to care deeply about these things and sense the unwillingness of most people around you to even acknowledge, let alone want to engage in conversations about these issues. However, I think this refusal to dive beneath the surface is going to ultimately be our undoing…
Thanks for providing this space for some of us to share our thoughts. It’s reassuring to know that perhaps we’re not as alone as we think we are and that there are other Australians who feel the same way.
x
These comments encapsulate so well what I’ve been feeling for a long time now living in Australia for the past 22 years. A deep denial, a disconnect from spirit. The country’s huge pain body which is a result of our dark history of colonisation is sucking the life out of me. My heart is broken. I’m back in France now, and feel I can finally breathe again. I do love Australia, not the white culture but the land that sings the songs of Aboriginal ancestors and their deep knowing and connection. I hope the country can move forward by acknowledging the painful past.
you are not a stuckup whiner. This is real. My parents were Italian immigrants coming to Australia in the 1950's. The were very poor farmers but I only remember important political and societal discussions in my childhood. The "lucky country" was a common theme, but now it has bitten us on the arse. (what is IME?)
IME = in my experience :-)
My father was from the UK (my mum Australian with a British father) and my brother and I also grew up with conversations similar to the ones you mention above. He spent most of his career working abroad so I think that might have had something do with it too. That and his refusal to remain staunchly British by not taking dual citizenship and rejecting Australian sausages :)
Great article Sarah. I wonder about this as an Australian living in Paris for the last almost 4 years, after marrying a Frenchman. When I first moved to France I felt whiplashed by the culture shock and in my mind, what I felt were daily inconveniences (bad weather, frequent strikes, cold people, a lot more pessimistic vibe generally) but over time I've come to find these things challenging me to be a deeper thinker. I miss many things about Australia but not the Aussie larrikin culture. I feel we could be and so much better beyond it
A friend in Australia married a Frenchman and he missed the culture of deeper thinking so much that they moved back to France.
I can't say I'm surprised...
Hey Sarah,
I 100% agree with your stance on dating in Australia, I'm a single 25 year old and the bulk of the men I see on dating apps in Australia always has a laidback, jokey profile (most of them drinking beers etc.) Funnily enough, the best philosophical conversations I have in Australia are with friends who have lived overseas and have a more international background. So many Australians also haven't travelled overseas, particularly in the older generations and that plays a role in narrow-mindedness I think.
Firstly, you are not being a stuck-up whiner, you speak truth, light fires in us and our society to get us talking and shine a light on what so many of us have been thinking and feeling.
As a mid 30's woman who has been a solid dater both ten years ago and in the last five years, I've noticed a distinct change in men in that time. I'm sure part of it has to do with the way we date now, on apps, as opposed to when men would introduce themselves at the bar, the petrol station, the gym etc. But the overall vibe I noticed in the past few years was a lack of effort. On dates or on the apps they'd ask what I'm looking for and I'd say: Effort. By this I mean, organize a date, ask questions to get to know me (as opposed to just talking about themselves), talk to me about your views on politics, the climate crisis, be well read and informed etc. I might as well have been asking them to walk to Pluto! So yes, this is something that I've noticed and that bugs me and I think we humans are never going to get our shit together and find a way for us all to live sustainably on what's left of our beautiful home if people are apathetic.
PS - the Lech Blaine podcast was one of my favs because it touched on something very relatable and wanted to understand.
PPS - You aren't alone Sarah, we're here with you, feeling and thinking the same :)
Another woman who wholeheartedly agrees with what you're saying. I feel very isolated with my thoughts because I rarely get any engagement when I express them. These days I much prefer to listen to a few podcasts I love than to actually converse with the people around me...I find it so much more fulfilling, which makes me really sad. I thought it might be an age thing (I'm 32 so most people around me are having families and I assume raising children is all-consuming) but I think it's a wider problem, like you said. I am just so utterly bored with life atm. So I eat the bad food and watch the tv shows to find some stimulation. But it makes me depressed. My partner and I have decided to do some travel to get us both out of this rut. I am craving deep conversation so much but can't seem to find it anywhere here.
Yes, as a collective we're fat and happy. White Australians have not had to struggle much which I feel goes some way to explaining the insular and panicked response to covid. Imagine if we had to deal with war in our borders or something equally terrifying. I doubt we'd have Ukrainian fortitude to withstand such pressure.
The depth of discourse really depends on the company you keep in my opinion. I have many deep and intellectual conversations on a daily basis. And, when you travel you generally meet people with a broader world perspective.
European countries have huge and similar problems that may not be obvious at first glance. Italy is going to the polls this month and will likely elect a very reactionary government, France lurched to the right and let's just say I doubt these trends are based on intellectual conversations.