Wow Sarah, what a genuinely powerful intelligent article. 👏
Just on the Title - there is also an intonation that women are ‘left’ on the shelf and men are Mr ‘right’ I love that you did that, intentioned or not.
Hey Sarah read your latest email. As usual really interesting and thought provoking. I’m not in the general media stream ( social or otherwise) so am not up with any of the books or studies or commentators that you reference. And am very aware I am white and heterosexual and old blah, blah. However wanted to put in a vote for marriage - without denying or disagreeing with any of your excellent points. No one should do it if they don’t want to. And no one should be made to feel bad to not want to. And it’s undeniable that a huge percentage of marriages are awful ( to be fair for men and women). And yet … and yet I also think it is entirely valid to decide to commit wholeheartedly to one other person for life ( acknowledging that it’s a long shot ) and give it a red hot go with all the compromises etc involved. Terrified that I’ll sound like the other people you mention who rant about this. Life is generally a shit show and no one has the perfect answer but deciding to commit to a partner and raise a family should be held up as one of the good options out there. Only one of them - and not perfect - but still a good option if both partners would like to.
Written and sent in a spirit of love and friendship ( and self awareness that I am probably largely backwardly justifying a 32 year marriage 🤦♂️🤣)
Thanks Nigel...I agree with your points. I think marriage can be a great forum for growing and exploring the human condition. The compromise and giving required takes us to great places. Like most things that have good "bones" it gets co-opted by those with vested interests.
That said, it should be noted that marriage has always been tied to vested interests. And has always pegged from women being treated as a chattel. It gets dressed up as something desirable for women in different ways throughout history (weddings glamorised etc), and then the system works to ensure women NEED to see marriage as desirable, ergo tax structures and wage set-ups and basically not paying the bulk of female work around the world (bringing kids into the world).
I guess I have always felt alive to these factors and wondered why we can't do the deep engagement, care, relating, love etc outside of the marriage construct.
I’m officially in my 30’s and have taken on an anthropological ‘field work’ approach to dating 😂
Because it has honestly fascinated me how so many dudes I’ve dated/befriended have all shifted their political views and values towards the right... and I think you’ve written about it before, how there is a tendency for dudes over 30 to be inclined to believe in the various conspiracy theories goin’ round. Is it the fact that the dudes have followed society’s unwritten rules, life isn’t turning out the way they were told and so they need someone ‘out there’ to blame?
Your field work is important! To answer, yes, I think very possibly that the status quo is wobbling and those who've benefited from it most wish to grip it harder.
I'm curious to hear more about this too. My guess would be that as men become established in their careers and start to gain financial security and increased social status, they might be more inclined to support political parties and ideas that keep them on that upwards trajectory. Whereas, many women are starting to have babies in their 30s and in doing so, will be making many of the compromises that Sarah notes above and will therefore perhaps be more inclined to support policies that prioritise social equality and fairness.
I read a posing question somewhere last week, that I continue to mull over, that was something like this...."Can men & women maintain love (a bonded relationship) within patriarchy?" ,the writer was contemplating a breakup. Great post S! xos
My partner and I have been together for 23 years and have a similar level of awareness of what lies ahead. It's made it easier for us to agree on decisions for our family that might otherwise have been much more difficult to reach a consensus on. And overall, I'd say that it's been very bonding (lol)! I can't imagine the frustration of being with a partner who was still living in status quo land.
In my first marriage I experienced what could be considered the typical female experience. I took on more work (home and business) and supported her career. While also experiencing emotional and physical abuse.
All of which felt to me to be the “norm”. And I accepted it for the trade off of raising a family, and doing as a man should do. So I “get” it to some degree what you speak of.
Plus as a man, I want to say, sorry for the horseshit that we as men give out. I am just as guilty.
But as you have clearly illustrated here Sarah, that dream has been shattered and is a myth. As a society we seem to have no fucking idea how to just get along and make good things happen.
Plus we keep getting lied too by Hollywood and right wing think tanks. Perpetuating the myth that relationships should be easy and will make us happy.
Plus, life is getting more expensive, complicated, and stressful. Many in my neighbourhood cannot afford to get divorced as they would end up homeless (and these are affluent surrounds). The number of men and women stuck in dangerous situations is only getting worse. As the pressure cooker of life increases the temperature within these relationships.
From my own experience and spiritual/philosophical journey, I believe that we are always going to hook up with our “opposite” in some degree. How opposite is all down to how masochistic we are 😅.
To be with someone who agrees with everything I believe to be true would drive me nuts. It would end up like a Joe Rogan podcast or a feminist book club. A one sided, non productive discussion, reaffirming my own biases and fears.
My theory is, as with war, politics, and community , we need to reach across the divide and rebuild new systems. That respect our differences, enhance our strengths, and build something beautiful and sustainable. This includes relationships. Everyone is different, but I have done the single dad , casual sex thing , and it just does not cut the mustard.
It’s a bit like playing casual tennis, it’s fun, and you get to see some different styles and games 😆. But in the end its a bit hollow, and it’s not improving my game. I want to aim for Wimbledon and need a partner who is up for the challenge. Who attacks my weak sides and allows me to counter with my strengths.
Sooooo my first question is
What do women actually want? I hear the problem , but I want tangible take aways.
What would be your ideal relationship scenario?
How do we form bonds , based on the reality of the messiness of our lives and pasts, and not an unrealistic construct?
Secondly, thank you to all of the women who are now saying no!
This is part of the problem, us men need to feel the pain of loneliness. And the fruitlessness of our immature strategies to win your hearts.
On the flip side, i have been practising saying no, I will no longer overwork myself to fulfill unrealistic demands or needs, nor puff up fragile self esteem 😅.
Oh and Sarah, with those marriage proposals my guess is there are two things at play
One , you do happen to be blessed with a radiant beauty , which would make 99.9% of men nervous as fuck. Which I can imagine has been both a blessing and a curse. This is classic beautiful woman syndrome, men are afraid to approach , which then affects the woman’s self esteem , which then makes her add a shield , which then scares men even more , and so on 😅
Plus your circumstances in life make you a formidable tennis partner 🤔😆🙃
Thus the luke warm invitations to social doubles, Sunday afternoon hits, and solo hits against the brick wall 😅.
It’s the same effect re wages, politics, beliefs, you have to match mine otherwise bugger off.
And for my final question
How do we find a compromise?
Because life is all about compromise. Life is not perfect , and it must be uncomfortable otherwise what’s the point. These moments of bliss and this is good!, will otherwise never actually happen.
You put a stack of care and reflection into the above, Steve. Thanks! I'm wondering if I should do a pod chat with someone who really knows tangible answers to the questions you ask. I have someone in mind.
I'm wondering if anyone else has questions...
PS I'm a really bad tennis player
PPS to answer your last question a little obtusely, I find the sweet spot, the compromise, in living large and as I feel I should and enjoying the relating I get to do with men and women at all kinds of levels. I've chosen relating over partnering. I'm playing singles not doubles.
☺️ Esther please 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 I would love you to hit her with the tough questions. And where she sees relating going in the future.
Especially regarding the stark reality of abuse, and trauma within relationships.
And thank you Sarah ✌🏼 I try
That answer is not obtuse at all, it explains your way quite well. And the word relating is very relevant. It is the starting point for anything or everything.
How do I relate to myself ? Do I listen to myself?
Who are you, how would you like to relate?
What do you want , what do I want , and then the most crucial part, did we hear each other clearly? Are we lost in an idea or fear (it’s going to happen 😅) and then how do we get back onto the path.
That’s is the fun with tennis and life and relating, we are all amateurs, and it’s the sweet spot where the challenge and fun is. When we accept that we are learning, but want to achieve an outcome, and let the unknown and the new combine.
If you could find someone who can combine the practical realities of relating and taking care of the day to day. Along with the spiritual experience. Because at the end of the day , all of this is driven by good old L.O.V.E . And many are missing out on its power and mystery in their lives. Both in its platonic and romantic forms.
Which is a shame, but also a practical consequence of the world which we have created.
Let’s all find that sweet spot ☺️😆👌🏼✌🏼
ps I may attempt your method for a while , as I do not want to settle down in this location. It is a delicate place to navigate though.
It is a fine line between being an emotionally unavailable fuck boy, rather than someone who is just not available. Or maybe I should just stick to tennis and coffee chats 😅.
The word relating is the key I feel. The ideas we create of marriage or a relationship bypasses this, the most important element. And removes the responsibility to relate to each other every single day.
I think this is why men think marriage is cool. As they/we get to relax and rely on the preconceived ideas of the roles. And women take on more in their “role” in order to keep the man. Both sides are guilty of it, and I guess do it to gain a sense of safety or to fit the norm. Not cool.
Regarding the share of work, I am curious, why do women give up this time? What is the expected reward? And I guess, based on the figures, the reward is definitely no longer worth it.
From the male perspective, it would be interesting to see if the amount of time spent on domestic tasks, is countered by the financial / time investment put into the relationship and shared assets. I shudder at the number of times friends have told me about being given an ultimatum re the price of an engagement ring. My reply has always been, well that’s when you should have walked away.
If you have 15000 spare to drop on an amazing piece of jewellery then, fuck yes, get the $30 000 one and support an independent artist while you are at it. But that is half a masters degree , 6 months of travel together, a nest egg for a child. Fuck tonnes of good food and a spruce up to a kick ass kitchen.
This point is soon mute though with the wage gap slowly closing and with the cohort of financially independent women rapidly growing.
I remember a conversation with a good friend early on in my new, post marriage life, and he asked me what I had learnt from divorce. My answer was a little cliche , but also the truth.
You cannot and should not take yourself or your partner for granted. The more you relax the further you drift from yourself and the other. But , the more you engage, the more you over think and smother each other.
Back to the sweet spot and some basic responsibility and respect 👌🏼
A few things have been milling in this mind of mine while sitting in the water this morning.
Along the lines of your question Sarah. Re: if we have any other questions for that someone who is able to guide us with practical tools and insights on how to relate to and balance ourselves. And our outer relating.
I have also been enjoying some solo time which has allowed me to contemplate my question to the ladies (and gents) in the group. Along with broader themes such as my career and home.
So I thought that I would give you a question/s for the next guest Sarah.
And also give a man’s angle, request, wish, invitation, yearning etc 😅
First, an observation
If we cannot trust ourselves , then we are fucked as a species
If we cannot trust and open to one other person, then we are doubly fucked
Because then we are in the midst of a cluster fuck , trying to connect and relate to a whole damn world.
Tim gave a beautiful example of what meditation brings and essentially is. When the C note is played on the piano, it reverberates the C string on the guitar, sitting across the room. They harmonise, but more than that, they acknowledge each other.
To come into tune with the universe around me , and experience that there is no separation between (me,i,it). With the deep understanding that the universe is always in tune , always a perfect C.
And all that we need to do is , feel, and let the body tell us, where and why we are resisting perfection.
So my question for your guest is
What is your favourite simple tool when relating with ourselves or another in relationship , to first acknowledge that we are out of tune, and then slowly find our true voice and sing that perfect C?
And my wish is this , as a man towards women (and also fundamentally in life, as I feel the whole left/right thing is just a further manifestation of the female/male thing)
For men to understand that they have been taught ways of being which are not healthy. Not because men are unhealthy. But because we have gotten lost. Not due to patriarchy or matriarchy, (for we are all responsible for the status quo), but due to the abuse of power, and the weathering of life. For men to understand this and acknowledge the impact that our actions have on the planet and those around us.
My wish for women is , for them to understand that a man only wants one thing, peace and harmony in their life and in their home. As we cannot create life, our yearning is to be able to support and protect life’s preciousness. A man is always trying (that’s why we get so frustrated with women and life , because nothing sits still , we forget that the work never ends 😅)
My wish is that we can find a way to be each others tuning fork. To forget the he said , she said stuff, and just acknowledge that “holy shit” we sound fucking terrible. Here is what I am trying to sing, I will count you in and let’s aim for those high notes 👌🏼
Authors and psychologists, John and Julie Gottman are experts at love and relationships with very tangible, little tips on how to lean into love. Might be worth exploring...
This is something I sometimes waffle over in my own life. My partner leans right while I lean left, we got together when we were very young, before we ever had any political awareness or views. As we’ve grown and are almost in our 30’s it’s exactly as it says in Sarah’s post, Ive gone left and he sways right. However it’s important to note the word “sway”. He still has some very leftist views (supports reproductive rights, gay marriage etc) whether or not he realizes that it technically aligns him with the left or not, these are just his values as a human being.
I guess my overall point is that I actually find value in being with someone with wavering views than me. It allows me a peek into the “other side” and leads to interesting discussions. While yes, women should absolutely NOT settle and give up their values or dreams for a partner, I don’t think completing dismissing partners that aren’t EXACTLY like you is the answer either. This leads to a more division, more tribalism, more pointing fingers at “them” when I feel the overarching goal is to have more empathy, loving everyone even if they are different then you, trying to understand and knowing that love can be separate from politics. When things get harry i say to him “This. Us. This is real life and is what matters. We can’t let all the stuff going on ‘out there’ make us forget what’s going on in front of us right now ”.
Political views are a spectrum, and just because someone identifies as conservative doesn’t mean they necessarily listen to Joe Rogan all day and disagree with abortion. Have conversations, ask big questions, if they are in the cards have a plan on how you would raise children (there’s beauty in having two parents that have views on both sides, it would give a child the full spectrum of social/political views and allow them to develop a robust independent opinion, rather than blindly follow whatever their parents believe in-which, by the way, happened with me untill my mid twenties or so).
Anyway, my two cents! And thanks, Sarah, for another engaging post.
Thanks Carmen ☺️ glad that it spiked some neurons to jump and dance 🪩
That’s the funny thing, Joe Rogan is extremely liberal in his heart, he believes that everyone should do exactly what is right for them. Aaaaand we should all look out for each other.
And that we should always question ourselves and each other. That’s why he started the podcast. And yes , he is a dude, but dudes are good , and fucked, just like Mother Theresa is good and immensely fucked at the same time (she took immense joy in supporting suffering as it forwarded her own goals).
And yes, if you were both left left, you would end up being in a co dependant relationship, and probably end up polyamorous or emotionally cheating in some manner 😋😅.
Heaps of bitching about “them” while secretly loathing yourself and each other. As you were denying that “right” part of yourself.
I love that he is connected enough with himself to feel his values and brave enough to step to either side when appropriate to him, and your relationship.
Thats what amazes me with the left right thing, being pro life when there is a right leaning government is actually right wing. The government can fuck off to tell me what I can do with my body.
Flip the social and political narrative and then we are back to the left. The government should make everyone agree with me and provide health care and birth control.
When the real answer is with the individual, not with shouting down each other’s throats. It’s with listening to women and their needs and providing them.
Along with fostering a healthy community through education, so that we can all make good decisions, and are supported when we fuck things up.
This might be of interest Sarah, Lichtenstein long ago managed to create a political system which fostered long term vision. They set in place agreement between the political parties of fundamental values and a clear vision for the country. They needed to in order to not starve to death as they are a small land locked country with to many hills. There was no time for Scotty from marketing there 😅
Sorry for the French this morning , have a beautiful day ✌🏼👌🏼
I've heard of divorced couples living in separate apartments in the same building to be able to live seperatly while co-parenting ..pretty much along these lines!
The general topic of marriage is something I’ve thought about considerably for the last while, as a 36 year old woman! I’ve been engaged and was with my ex for 14 years. I’ve now been single for 6 years and while marriage isn’t really something I’m overly fussed about, I would love being in long term committed partnership again. There are part of single life I adore but I do think we are hardwired for connection and pair bonding (in whatever structure suits you!)
I think there is a lot wrong with the state of marriage and expectations on women but I think we grow and blossom (and the inverse!) in romantic relationships in a way that can’t quite be replicated in other dynamics. And this part can get lost in the conversation at times.
I know partnerships where people are politically different but do share same values and life goals and I think that’s probably the most important part of it all!
Yes, I think there are two issues (and challenges) here - 1. the state of relationships and relating between men and women and 2. the vested interests of marriage . They are actually quite separate, except to the extent that we can try to plug the former with the latter.
God, yes. Well said. And Lyz, I am getting your book when it comes out. I read that WP editorial too. I'm well entrenched in dating culture (work and personal) and it's a shit show out there, and is a reflection on how polarized we really are. I say that the percentage of single left-leaning (for reals) straight men is only about 10, maybe 15% -- anecdotal and a loose estimate based on my work interviewing single people all day long. And then there are the guys who will say they are liberal (sometimes because it tracks better with women) but when you dive deeper into what they are looking for in a romantic partner, it's definitely not an equal one.
And always an interesting stat - nearly 70% of divorces are initiated by women.
I remember seeing a meme or a stat from one of the dating platforms about how Republican men fake being a liberal to get dates...it was around the 2016 election.
I have a matchmaking and date coaching business (we take over the search for people who don't want to/can't do online dating for privacy purposes, help with online dating, provide support with dating in general). And I should note that I'm Canadian. It may not be as divisive here as it is in the US, but we are definitely experiencing a fast moving uptick in men moving to the right.
And yep, there is a lot of lying from conservative men on dating apps about being liberal. But I also find even more straight guys who really do think they fall more on the liberal side, who are not really left leaning, when you really dive deeper (at least when it comes to how they relate to women). They still hold traditional gendered ideas of what a partnership should be. They may not have strong views against women's reproductive or LGBTQ rights, but they are still looking for a woman to play the supporting role in a partnership.
That is all a little scary , with touches of gaslighting and entrapment. Do your clients see it as malicious or just anxious bonding patterns?
I have seen such behaviour in my friend group and also some shape shifting in myself.
Men seem to switch between shapeshifting when times are good , and then to dominance when times are bad (hence the slide to the right).
My theory is that it all has to do with the punishment / reward parenting that has been the norm for centuries. Very few are taught to just say yes or no , I want this , I do not want this. These are my boundaries and you cannot erode or break them down. It has created very transactional relating.
Do you ever teach your clients to just flat out ask what are your expectations of me? Or to get them to see how they act around their mother?
It feels a little like it’s the end game of dating.
With a I am just going to get mine and burn the world and women kind of attitude. A friend asked for app advice the other day, as he is freshly divorced and would like to just explore physical intimacy.
He asked if he should just lie straight up. I asked him how this would make him feel, and he responded “like shit”.
I don’t think men are particularly malevolent, just still living in a world of disrespect and entitlement. Along with a “practical / mechanical ” mindset of how the world operates. And like women, dealing with a healthy fear of intimacy.
I once dated a therapist/psych/tantra teacher who asked me a beautiful set of questions. All based around the wheel of consent. It really made me look at my own boundaries, expectations, and baggage.
She taught me to really allow myself to get uncomfortable and also make someone else uncomfortable, all in the process of creating a safe environment and safe relating.
Do you train your clients in this? I feel this could be such a powerful tool for empowering both men and women and putting honesty on the table , front and centre.
My friends and I now dating in our late 20's/30's all have a broad set of standards when looking at a partner, and it's (generally) not how tall they are, or whether they have all their hair but more so who would they vote for, what are they doing on Australia/invasion day, can they cook, clean, do they take on the burden of planning, do they have female friends, things like this, same for my male friends. The fear is a secret conservative will slip through the cracks and steal our heart 😁 or at least waste our time. People are putting off marriage much more, life is good, friendships are stronger than ever, we aren't giving that up for a marriage that brings more labour and constant compromises of our values
Gosh Nicky, that sounds like you have a healthy network of mates. Having friends of the opposite sex is something I note, too. In Australia it is not so common - a result of so many single-sex schools (one of highest per capita in world)
Yep, definitely it’s difficult to relate well to people of other genders if we’ve never developed friendships outside our own gender. Friendships are foundational to relating in a non-transactional way.
Agree that things like single sex schools have an effect, but I think misogyny plays a non-trivial role. IMO, too many men still place little to no value on friendships with women (e.g. not bothering to engage socially with women they’re not attracted to, seeing friendship with a woman as a waste of time if they’re not going to have sex with her).
I do think it’s getting better, but I don’t believe it’s possible to have an authentic, meaningful discussion about heterosexual relating, without directly addressing misogyny.
Sorry - late to the party here! I recently read “Wifedom: Mrs Orwell’s invisible life” by Anna Funder. Yet another example of an amazing woman (behind the famous man) who has essentially been written out of the history books.
Power to all the women who refuse to marry (and/or partner with) someone who isn’t their equal - in all the ways 💪🏽.
Brilliant article by Lyz! Although married myself, I believe traditional marriage will be one of the things to go in the wave of progressive change we are seeing. If it doesn’t meet everyone’s needs, then in the trash it goes!
Sarah, I know that Clementine Ford is currently writing a book about marriage (in a similar vein to this article but in the Australian context) - she might be an interesting podcast interviewee?
Sarah, if, when coming up to the Northern Rivers, you'd like to take advantage of proximity to Nightcap NP for hiking, we are near Whian Whian. Our church has a new loft & ensuite. Take it as an artist in residence offer, if you need a quiet space for writing...
Personally I’m not into marriage but I’m in a happy long term relationship. Is it really that different to being married, I’m pondering? (Though I don’t fancy myself married to a Republican!). I think it’s great today that we have so much more choice. To be alone if we choose. To see relationships as finite or long term, whatever. My point being, that rather than tell people to get married or don’t get married, I think we need to make people aware of the data and keep shifting the paradigm. And while I agree patriarchy is still very much at play, people also bring so much else to a relationship such as unconscious trauma, bias, challenges, differences. The greatest con is that relationships/marriage are supposed to be easy. (Not a reason to stay in a shitty one of course). Anyway, again information/education/learnings over absolutes.
I've also never been attracted to the idea of marriage (in fact, I've always been actively opposed to it), but I'm in a happy long-term relationship that feels very equal. Sometimes I think that part of the reason for this is because my partner and I have never bought into the fairytale idea of 'marriage' and what a partnership between a committed couple should look like, and we've also never signed a 'contract' - the thought of which sounds stifling and deeply unromantic to me (I know this makes me an outlier, though!)
This is a fascinating read. As a male from the UK, there is a similar pattern developing in terms of marriage between couples decreasing over here. My parents have been together for over 40 years and when I was young I witnessed them having shouting matches, threaten to divorce each other etc. But now in their late 60's/early 70s they are more in love than they've ever been. I know this is slightly off piste to the theme of the post. But I do wonder whether our generation is overwhelmed by options due to dating apps and as a result are more willing to walk away from a relationship/marriage that might be challenging, but if both people are willing to put the work in, could, over time turn into something wonderful. Then again, I have watched way to many romcoms...
Wow Sarah, what a genuinely powerful intelligent article. 👏
Just on the Title - there is also an intonation that women are ‘left’ on the shelf and men are Mr ‘right’ I love that you did that, intentioned or not.
Not intentional. But always great to be regarded as more clever than you are!
Hey Sarah read your latest email. As usual really interesting and thought provoking. I’m not in the general media stream ( social or otherwise) so am not up with any of the books or studies or commentators that you reference. And am very aware I am white and heterosexual and old blah, blah. However wanted to put in a vote for marriage - without denying or disagreeing with any of your excellent points. No one should do it if they don’t want to. And no one should be made to feel bad to not want to. And it’s undeniable that a huge percentage of marriages are awful ( to be fair for men and women). And yet … and yet I also think it is entirely valid to decide to commit wholeheartedly to one other person for life ( acknowledging that it’s a long shot ) and give it a red hot go with all the compromises etc involved. Terrified that I’ll sound like the other people you mention who rant about this. Life is generally a shit show and no one has the perfect answer but deciding to commit to a partner and raise a family should be held up as one of the good options out there. Only one of them - and not perfect - but still a good option if both partners would like to.
Written and sent in a spirit of love and friendship ( and self awareness that I am probably largely backwardly justifying a 32 year marriage 🤦♂️🤣)
Nigel x
Sent from my iPhone
Thanks Nigel...I agree with your points. I think marriage can be a great forum for growing and exploring the human condition. The compromise and giving required takes us to great places. Like most things that have good "bones" it gets co-opted by those with vested interests.
That said, it should be noted that marriage has always been tied to vested interests. And has always pegged from women being treated as a chattel. It gets dressed up as something desirable for women in different ways throughout history (weddings glamorised etc), and then the system works to ensure women NEED to see marriage as desirable, ergo tax structures and wage set-ups and basically not paying the bulk of female work around the world (bringing kids into the world).
I guess I have always felt alive to these factors and wondered why we can't do the deep engagement, care, relating, love etc outside of the marriage construct.
I’m officially in my 30’s and have taken on an anthropological ‘field work’ approach to dating 😂
Because it has honestly fascinated me how so many dudes I’ve dated/befriended have all shifted their political views and values towards the right... and I think you’ve written about it before, how there is a tendency for dudes over 30 to be inclined to believe in the various conspiracy theories goin’ round. Is it the fact that the dudes have followed society’s unwritten rules, life isn’t turning out the way they were told and so they need someone ‘out there’ to blame?
... and so this left-leaning gal is single 😅
Your field work is important! To answer, yes, I think very possibly that the status quo is wobbling and those who've benefited from it most wish to grip it harder.
PS how are your other studies going?
Studies are going great! The best part is being surrounded by people who love to engage in deep discussions and critical thinking.
Writing a paper this week on ethics of ai/LLM’s and quoting a few of your pods for references!
Hope you’re enjoying your time in Aus! Come visit in Noosa 🩷
Agree, agree, agree. And I am curious about your comment that "while men start to skew Right from their thirties onwards". I wonder why that is...?
I'm curious to hear more about this too. My guess would be that as men become established in their careers and start to gain financial security and increased social status, they might be more inclined to support political parties and ideas that keep them on that upwards trajectory. Whereas, many women are starting to have babies in their 30s and in doing so, will be making many of the compromises that Sarah notes above and will therefore perhaps be more inclined to support policies that prioritise social equality and fairness.
A simplistic explanation for that is that men go to the right because they discover that conservatism promotes the status quo, which benefits men and men alone. Some argue that most of us become more conservative as we age. I hope I will be the exception and become even more of a rabid leftie. I read this the other day: https://theconversation.com/australias-young-people-are-moving-to-the-left-though-young-women-are-more-progressive-than-men-reflecting-a-global-trend-222288
I read a posing question somewhere last week, that I continue to mull over, that was something like this...."Can men & women maintain love (a bonded relationship) within patriarchy?" ,the writer was contemplating a breakup. Great post S! xos
I think it's a very important (and hard) question to ask...I'd also ask if it can be maintained within societal collapse
My partner and I have been together for 23 years and have a similar level of awareness of what lies ahead. It's made it easier for us to agree on decisions for our family that might otherwise have been much more difficult to reach a consensus on. And overall, I'd say that it's been very bonding (lol)! I can't imagine the frustration of being with a partner who was still living in status quo land.
I find this all so damn fascinating
In my first marriage I experienced what could be considered the typical female experience. I took on more work (home and business) and supported her career. While also experiencing emotional and physical abuse.
All of which felt to me to be the “norm”. And I accepted it for the trade off of raising a family, and doing as a man should do. So I “get” it to some degree what you speak of.
Plus as a man, I want to say, sorry for the horseshit that we as men give out. I am just as guilty.
But as you have clearly illustrated here Sarah, that dream has been shattered and is a myth. As a society we seem to have no fucking idea how to just get along and make good things happen.
Plus we keep getting lied too by Hollywood and right wing think tanks. Perpetuating the myth that relationships should be easy and will make us happy.
Plus, life is getting more expensive, complicated, and stressful. Many in my neighbourhood cannot afford to get divorced as they would end up homeless (and these are affluent surrounds). The number of men and women stuck in dangerous situations is only getting worse. As the pressure cooker of life increases the temperature within these relationships.
From my own experience and spiritual/philosophical journey, I believe that we are always going to hook up with our “opposite” in some degree. How opposite is all down to how masochistic we are 😅.
To be with someone who agrees with everything I believe to be true would drive me nuts. It would end up like a Joe Rogan podcast or a feminist book club. A one sided, non productive discussion, reaffirming my own biases and fears.
My theory is, as with war, politics, and community , we need to reach across the divide and rebuild new systems. That respect our differences, enhance our strengths, and build something beautiful and sustainable. This includes relationships. Everyone is different, but I have done the single dad , casual sex thing , and it just does not cut the mustard.
It’s a bit like playing casual tennis, it’s fun, and you get to see some different styles and games 😆. But in the end its a bit hollow, and it’s not improving my game. I want to aim for Wimbledon and need a partner who is up for the challenge. Who attacks my weak sides and allows me to counter with my strengths.
Sooooo my first question is
What do women actually want? I hear the problem , but I want tangible take aways.
What would be your ideal relationship scenario?
How do we form bonds , based on the reality of the messiness of our lives and pasts, and not an unrealistic construct?
Secondly, thank you to all of the women who are now saying no!
This is part of the problem, us men need to feel the pain of loneliness. And the fruitlessness of our immature strategies to win your hearts.
On the flip side, i have been practising saying no, I will no longer overwork myself to fulfill unrealistic demands or needs, nor puff up fragile self esteem 😅.
Oh and Sarah, with those marriage proposals my guess is there are two things at play
One , you do happen to be blessed with a radiant beauty , which would make 99.9% of men nervous as fuck. Which I can imagine has been both a blessing and a curse. This is classic beautiful woman syndrome, men are afraid to approach , which then affects the woman’s self esteem , which then makes her add a shield , which then scares men even more , and so on 😅
Plus your circumstances in life make you a formidable tennis partner 🤔😆🙃
Thus the luke warm invitations to social doubles, Sunday afternoon hits, and solo hits against the brick wall 😅.
It’s the same effect re wages, politics, beliefs, you have to match mine otherwise bugger off.
And for my final question
How do we find a compromise?
Because life is all about compromise. Life is not perfect , and it must be uncomfortable otherwise what’s the point. These moments of bliss and this is good!, will otherwise never actually happen.
Life is the pain and discomfort.
Love, bliss, orgasm, awe is the reward.
You put a stack of care and reflection into the above, Steve. Thanks! I'm wondering if I should do a pod chat with someone who really knows tangible answers to the questions you ask. I have someone in mind.
I'm wondering if anyone else has questions...
PS I'm a really bad tennis player
PPS to answer your last question a little obtusely, I find the sweet spot, the compromise, in living large and as I feel I should and enjoying the relating I get to do with men and women at all kinds of levels. I've chosen relating over partnering. I'm playing singles not doubles.
☺️ Esther please 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 I would love you to hit her with the tough questions. And where she sees relating going in the future.
Especially regarding the stark reality of abuse, and trauma within relationships.
And thank you Sarah ✌🏼 I try
That answer is not obtuse at all, it explains your way quite well. And the word relating is very relevant. It is the starting point for anything or everything.
How do I relate to myself ? Do I listen to myself?
Who are you, how would you like to relate?
What do you want , what do I want , and then the most crucial part, did we hear each other clearly? Are we lost in an idea or fear (it’s going to happen 😅) and then how do we get back onto the path.
That’s is the fun with tennis and life and relating, we are all amateurs, and it’s the sweet spot where the challenge and fun is. When we accept that we are learning, but want to achieve an outcome, and let the unknown and the new combine.
If you could find someone who can combine the practical realities of relating and taking care of the day to day. Along with the spiritual experience. Because at the end of the day , all of this is driven by good old L.O.V.E . And many are missing out on its power and mystery in their lives. Both in its platonic and romantic forms.
Which is a shame, but also a practical consequence of the world which we have created.
Let’s all find that sweet spot ☺️😆👌🏼✌🏼
ps I may attempt your method for a while , as I do not want to settle down in this location. It is a delicate place to navigate though.
It is a fine line between being an emotionally unavailable fuck boy, rather than someone who is just not available. Or maybe I should just stick to tennis and coffee chats 😅.
Happy relating everyone and have a lovely evening
The word relating is the key I feel. The ideas we create of marriage or a relationship bypasses this, the most important element. And removes the responsibility to relate to each other every single day.
I think this is why men think marriage is cool. As they/we get to relax and rely on the preconceived ideas of the roles. And women take on more in their “role” in order to keep the man. Both sides are guilty of it, and I guess do it to gain a sense of safety or to fit the norm. Not cool.
Regarding the share of work, I am curious, why do women give up this time? What is the expected reward? And I guess, based on the figures, the reward is definitely no longer worth it.
From the male perspective, it would be interesting to see if the amount of time spent on domestic tasks, is countered by the financial / time investment put into the relationship and shared assets. I shudder at the number of times friends have told me about being given an ultimatum re the price of an engagement ring. My reply has always been, well that’s when you should have walked away.
If you have 15000 spare to drop on an amazing piece of jewellery then, fuck yes, get the $30 000 one and support an independent artist while you are at it. But that is half a masters degree , 6 months of travel together, a nest egg for a child. Fuck tonnes of good food and a spruce up to a kick ass kitchen.
This point is soon mute though with the wage gap slowly closing and with the cohort of financially independent women rapidly growing.
I remember a conversation with a good friend early on in my new, post marriage life, and he asked me what I had learnt from divorce. My answer was a little cliche , but also the truth.
You cannot and should not take yourself or your partner for granted. The more you relax the further you drift from yourself and the other. But , the more you engage, the more you over think and smother each other.
Back to the sweet spot and some basic responsibility and respect 👌🏼
The
Good morning Everyone,
A few things have been milling in this mind of mine while sitting in the water this morning.
Along the lines of your question Sarah. Re: if we have any other questions for that someone who is able to guide us with practical tools and insights on how to relate to and balance ourselves. And our outer relating.
I have also been enjoying some solo time which has allowed me to contemplate my question to the ladies (and gents) in the group. Along with broader themes such as my career and home.
So I thought that I would give you a question/s for the next guest Sarah.
And also give a man’s angle, request, wish, invitation, yearning etc 😅
First, an observation
If we cannot trust ourselves , then we are fucked as a species
If we cannot trust and open to one other person, then we are doubly fucked
Because then we are in the midst of a cluster fuck , trying to connect and relate to a whole damn world.
Tim gave a beautiful example of what meditation brings and essentially is. When the C note is played on the piano, it reverberates the C string on the guitar, sitting across the room. They harmonise, but more than that, they acknowledge each other.
To come into tune with the universe around me , and experience that there is no separation between (me,i,it). With the deep understanding that the universe is always in tune , always a perfect C.
And all that we need to do is , feel, and let the body tell us, where and why we are resisting perfection.
So my question for your guest is
What is your favourite simple tool when relating with ourselves or another in relationship , to first acknowledge that we are out of tune, and then slowly find our true voice and sing that perfect C?
And my wish is this , as a man towards women (and also fundamentally in life, as I feel the whole left/right thing is just a further manifestation of the female/male thing)
For men to understand that they have been taught ways of being which are not healthy. Not because men are unhealthy. But because we have gotten lost. Not due to patriarchy or matriarchy, (for we are all responsible for the status quo), but due to the abuse of power, and the weathering of life. For men to understand this and acknowledge the impact that our actions have on the planet and those around us.
My wish for women is , for them to understand that a man only wants one thing, peace and harmony in their life and in their home. As we cannot create life, our yearning is to be able to support and protect life’s preciousness. A man is always trying (that’s why we get so frustrated with women and life , because nothing sits still , we forget that the work never ends 😅)
My wish is that we can find a way to be each others tuning fork. To forget the he said , she said stuff, and just acknowledge that “holy shit” we sound fucking terrible. Here is what I am trying to sing, I will count you in and let’s aim for those high notes 👌🏼
OBS , James “Fish” Gill on Insta gives some beautiful insights
Authors and psychologists, John and Julie Gottman are experts at love and relationships with very tangible, little tips on how to lean into love. Might be worth exploring...
What a great and thought provoking post, Steve.
This is something I sometimes waffle over in my own life. My partner leans right while I lean left, we got together when we were very young, before we ever had any political awareness or views. As we’ve grown and are almost in our 30’s it’s exactly as it says in Sarah’s post, Ive gone left and he sways right. However it’s important to note the word “sway”. He still has some very leftist views (supports reproductive rights, gay marriage etc) whether or not he realizes that it technically aligns him with the left or not, these are just his values as a human being.
I guess my overall point is that I actually find value in being with someone with wavering views than me. It allows me a peek into the “other side” and leads to interesting discussions. While yes, women should absolutely NOT settle and give up their values or dreams for a partner, I don’t think completing dismissing partners that aren’t EXACTLY like you is the answer either. This leads to a more division, more tribalism, more pointing fingers at “them” when I feel the overarching goal is to have more empathy, loving everyone even if they are different then you, trying to understand and knowing that love can be separate from politics. When things get harry i say to him “This. Us. This is real life and is what matters. We can’t let all the stuff going on ‘out there’ make us forget what’s going on in front of us right now ”.
Political views are a spectrum, and just because someone identifies as conservative doesn’t mean they necessarily listen to Joe Rogan all day and disagree with abortion. Have conversations, ask big questions, if they are in the cards have a plan on how you would raise children (there’s beauty in having two parents that have views on both sides, it would give a child the full spectrum of social/political views and allow them to develop a robust independent opinion, rather than blindly follow whatever their parents believe in-which, by the way, happened with me untill my mid twenties or so).
Anyway, my two cents! And thanks, Sarah, for another engaging post.
Thanks Carmen ☺️ glad that it spiked some neurons to jump and dance 🪩
That’s the funny thing, Joe Rogan is extremely liberal in his heart, he believes that everyone should do exactly what is right for them. Aaaaand we should all look out for each other.
And that we should always question ourselves and each other. That’s why he started the podcast. And yes , he is a dude, but dudes are good , and fucked, just like Mother Theresa is good and immensely fucked at the same time (she took immense joy in supporting suffering as it forwarded her own goals).
And yes, if you were both left left, you would end up being in a co dependant relationship, and probably end up polyamorous or emotionally cheating in some manner 😋😅.
Heaps of bitching about “them” while secretly loathing yourself and each other. As you were denying that “right” part of yourself.
I love that he is connected enough with himself to feel his values and brave enough to step to either side when appropriate to him, and your relationship.
Thats what amazes me with the left right thing, being pro life when there is a right leaning government is actually right wing. The government can fuck off to tell me what I can do with my body.
Flip the social and political narrative and then we are back to the left. The government should make everyone agree with me and provide health care and birth control.
When the real answer is with the individual, not with shouting down each other’s throats. It’s with listening to women and their needs and providing them.
Along with fostering a healthy community through education, so that we can all make good decisions, and are supported when we fuck things up.
This might be of interest Sarah, Lichtenstein long ago managed to create a political system which fostered long term vision. They set in place agreement between the political parties of fundamental values and a clear vision for the country. They needed to in order to not starve to death as they are a small land locked country with to many hills. There was no time for Scotty from marketing there 😅
Sorry for the French this morning , have a beautiful day ✌🏼👌🏼
Ohh and in reference to the American experience and fear of abuse or retaliation from an unhealthy individual. I hope that I do not sound dismissive.
Katherine Hepburn: Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then.
That is brilliance.
And so she did with Spencer Tracey.
I've heard of divorced couples living in separate apartments in the same building to be able to live seperatly while co-parenting ..pretty much along these lines!
I had an aunt and uncle who did that back in the 80's!
The general topic of marriage is something I’ve thought about considerably for the last while, as a 36 year old woman! I’ve been engaged and was with my ex for 14 years. I’ve now been single for 6 years and while marriage isn’t really something I’m overly fussed about, I would love being in long term committed partnership again. There are part of single life I adore but I do think we are hardwired for connection and pair bonding (in whatever structure suits you!)
I think there is a lot wrong with the state of marriage and expectations on women but I think we grow and blossom (and the inverse!) in romantic relationships in a way that can’t quite be replicated in other dynamics. And this part can get lost in the conversation at times.
I know partnerships where people are politically different but do share same values and life goals and I think that’s probably the most important part of it all!
Yes, I think there are two issues (and challenges) here - 1. the state of relationships and relating between men and women and 2. the vested interests of marriage . They are actually quite separate, except to the extent that we can try to plug the former with the latter.
God, yes. Well said. And Lyz, I am getting your book when it comes out. I read that WP editorial too. I'm well entrenched in dating culture (work and personal) and it's a shit show out there, and is a reflection on how polarized we really are. I say that the percentage of single left-leaning (for reals) straight men is only about 10, maybe 15% -- anecdotal and a loose estimate based on my work interviewing single people all day long. And then there are the guys who will say they are liberal (sometimes because it tracks better with women) but when you dive deeper into what they are looking for in a romantic partner, it's definitely not an equal one.
And always an interesting stat - nearly 70% of divorces are initiated by women.
Terran, what's your line of work...intrigued?
I remember seeing a meme or a stat from one of the dating platforms about how Republican men fake being a liberal to get dates...it was around the 2016 election.
I have a matchmaking and date coaching business (we take over the search for people who don't want to/can't do online dating for privacy purposes, help with online dating, provide support with dating in general). And I should note that I'm Canadian. It may not be as divisive here as it is in the US, but we are definitely experiencing a fast moving uptick in men moving to the right.
And yep, there is a lot of lying from conservative men on dating apps about being liberal. But I also find even more straight guys who really do think they fall more on the liberal side, who are not really left leaning, when you really dive deeper (at least when it comes to how they relate to women). They still hold traditional gendered ideas of what a partnership should be. They may not have strong views against women's reproductive or LGBTQ rights, but they are still looking for a woman to play the supporting role in a partnership.
You are the frontline! Your observations are very telling
That is all a little scary , with touches of gaslighting and entrapment. Do your clients see it as malicious or just anxious bonding patterns?
I have seen such behaviour in my friend group and also some shape shifting in myself.
Men seem to switch between shapeshifting when times are good , and then to dominance when times are bad (hence the slide to the right).
My theory is that it all has to do with the punishment / reward parenting that has been the norm for centuries. Very few are taught to just say yes or no , I want this , I do not want this. These are my boundaries and you cannot erode or break them down. It has created very transactional relating.
Do you ever teach your clients to just flat out ask what are your expectations of me? Or to get them to see how they act around their mother?
So much dishonesty on dating apps these days I think people just roll with it, unfortunately!
It feels a little like it’s the end game of dating.
With a I am just going to get mine and burn the world and women kind of attitude. A friend asked for app advice the other day, as he is freshly divorced and would like to just explore physical intimacy.
He asked if he should just lie straight up. I asked him how this would make him feel, and he responded “like shit”.
I don’t think men are particularly malevolent, just still living in a world of disrespect and entitlement. Along with a “practical / mechanical ” mindset of how the world operates. And like women, dealing with a healthy fear of intimacy.
I once dated a therapist/psych/tantra teacher who asked me a beautiful set of questions. All based around the wheel of consent. It really made me look at my own boundaries, expectations, and baggage.
She taught me to really allow myself to get uncomfortable and also make someone else uncomfortable, all in the process of creating a safe environment and safe relating.
Do you train your clients in this? I feel this could be such a powerful tool for empowering both men and women and putting honesty on the table , front and centre.
Great advice you gave to your friend, Steve. Yes, agreed. Generally there isn't malevolence, but a real sense of entitlement.
My friends and I now dating in our late 20's/30's all have a broad set of standards when looking at a partner, and it's (generally) not how tall they are, or whether they have all their hair but more so who would they vote for, what are they doing on Australia/invasion day, can they cook, clean, do they take on the burden of planning, do they have female friends, things like this, same for my male friends. The fear is a secret conservative will slip through the cracks and steal our heart 😁 or at least waste our time. People are putting off marriage much more, life is good, friendships are stronger than ever, we aren't giving that up for a marriage that brings more labour and constant compromises of our values
Gosh Nicky, that sounds like you have a healthy network of mates. Having friends of the opposite sex is something I note, too. In Australia it is not so common - a result of so many single-sex schools (one of highest per capita in world)
Yep, definitely it’s difficult to relate well to people of other genders if we’ve never developed friendships outside our own gender. Friendships are foundational to relating in a non-transactional way.
Agree that things like single sex schools have an effect, but I think misogyny plays a non-trivial role. IMO, too many men still place little to no value on friendships with women (e.g. not bothering to engage socially with women they’re not attracted to, seeing friendship with a woman as a waste of time if they’re not going to have sex with her).
I do think it’s getting better, but I don’t believe it’s possible to have an authentic, meaningful discussion about heterosexual relating, without directly addressing misogyny.
True! It took me 10 years out of Catholic school to have proper male friends
Sorry - late to the party here! I recently read “Wifedom: Mrs Orwell’s invisible life” by Anna Funder. Yet another example of an amazing woman (behind the famous man) who has essentially been written out of the history books.
Power to all the women who refuse to marry (and/or partner with) someone who isn’t their equal - in all the ways 💪🏽.
Just read it, too. Was left very angry and sad.
Brilliant article by Lyz! Although married myself, I believe traditional marriage will be one of the things to go in the wave of progressive change we are seeing. If it doesn’t meet everyone’s needs, then in the trash it goes!
Sarah, I know that Clementine Ford is currently writing a book about marriage (in a similar vein to this article but in the Australian context) - she might be an interesting podcast interviewee?
Yes, the book is already out...my mate Yumi interviewed her about it: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Clementine-Ford-I-Don%27t-9781761069666/
Sarah, if, when coming up to the Northern Rivers, you'd like to take advantage of proximity to Nightcap NP for hiking, we are near Whian Whian. Our church has a new loft & ensuite. Take it as an artist in residence offer, if you need a quiet space for writing...
That's super kind. I'm still getting my head around where I'll be and when. x
Personally I’m not into marriage but I’m in a happy long term relationship. Is it really that different to being married, I’m pondering? (Though I don’t fancy myself married to a Republican!). I think it’s great today that we have so much more choice. To be alone if we choose. To see relationships as finite or long term, whatever. My point being, that rather than tell people to get married or don’t get married, I think we need to make people aware of the data and keep shifting the paradigm. And while I agree patriarchy is still very much at play, people also bring so much else to a relationship such as unconscious trauma, bias, challenges, differences. The greatest con is that relationships/marriage are supposed to be easy. (Not a reason to stay in a shitty one of course). Anyway, again information/education/learnings over absolutes.
I've also never been attracted to the idea of marriage (in fact, I've always been actively opposed to it), but I'm in a happy long-term relationship that feels very equal. Sometimes I think that part of the reason for this is because my partner and I have never bought into the fairytale idea of 'marriage' and what a partnership between a committed couple should look like, and we've also never signed a 'contract' - the thought of which sounds stifling and deeply unromantic to me (I know this makes me an outlier, though!)
Also can’t wait to read the poke proposal forum, with the get out of jail free card - it was just a joke (poke)
my favourite kind of gaslighting trick, too!
This is a fascinating read. As a male from the UK, there is a similar pattern developing in terms of marriage between couples decreasing over here. My parents have been together for over 40 years and when I was young I witnessed them having shouting matches, threaten to divorce each other etc. But now in their late 60's/early 70s they are more in love than they've ever been. I know this is slightly off piste to the theme of the post. But I do wonder whether our generation is overwhelmed by options due to dating apps and as a result are more willing to walk away from a relationship/marriage that might be challenging, but if both people are willing to put the work in, could, over time turn into something wonderful. Then again, I have watched way to many romcoms...
I wonder the same. But as you say, the issue here is the idea of vested interests in women being married in the first place.